Ford is done with making boring cars

[jpd80]

38 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

On the topic of making their cars more exciting, I wonder what this means for mustang. With Farley talking about investing heavily in the mustang brand, and trying to take on Porsche. Does this mean we get even more body styles outside of the s650, mach-e, and mustang sedan?

Whenever Ford talks about some future product like this, it’s because they don’t have anything to show, just ideas.

Farley heavily committed Ford to a BEV future by taking $11 billion out of ICE product plans, the tide went out

a long way, especially with a lot of engineering taken now gone.

 

38 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

 

As for the next gen mustang, yes, I know the s650 just came out, but humor me, I'd like to see the car lean even harder into this expressive muscle car design. I'm in the minority here, but the s650 is better looking than the s550 imo after having given it some time. 

Quickly exploring that idea,
GTD is probably an example or at least, a toe in the water. Consider the evolution of that idea, starting with the Ford GT, followed by the exotic GTD Mustang at a lower price…..now imagine the body in aluminum instead of steel/carbon fibre.

Ther is an opportunity for Ford to save huge amounts on the GTD bodywork and raise the entire Mustang line while 

keeping the wide body exotic more production line oriented.

 

 

38 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

 

One of my favorite things they changed about the s650 over the s550 is the beltline. It's mostly flat on the s550, whereas it's a lot more muscular, sculptural on the s650. I'd love if the next gen mustang had the roofline, and sharply defined front fenders from this official Ford design sketch, and kept the really powerful looking haunch of the s650. It would look fantastic imo. 

It never ceases to amaze me how the small changes to body sty can make such a difference.

Yes to some more angles in the front end done judiciously could really bring out personality

[DeluxeStang]

7 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Whenever Ford talks about some future product like this, it’s because they don’t have anything to show, just ideas.

Farley heavily committed Ford to a BEV future by taking $11 billion out of ICE product plans, the tide went out

a long way, especially with a lot of engineering taken now gone.

 

Quickly exploring that idea,
GTD is probably an example or at least, a toe in the water. Consider the evolution of that idea, starting with the Ford GT, followed by the exotic GTD Mustang at a lower price…..now imagine the body in aluminum instead of steel/carbon fibre.

Ther is an opportunity for Ford to save huge amounts on the GTD bodywork and raise the entire Mustang line while 

keeping the wide body exotic more production line oriented.

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me how the small changes to body sty can make such a difference.

Yes to some more angles in the front end done judiciously could really bring out personality

It will be interesting to see how far Ford takes this GTD idea, and if it carries over into future generations. It will also be interesting to see with Ford investing in the mustang now more than they have in decades, if it finally gets a new platform that's more driver focused, something fans have been asking for years. 

 

I see the recipe of the 30-45 grand ecoboost and GT sticking around well into the future. But beyond that, anything is possible. 

[DeluxeStang]

I think what's important to keep in mind is passion, and exciting products, they're relative to the segments they compete in. The maverick hybrid is arguably the perfect example of this. Prior to owning it, we'd never owned a truck, only hatchbacks, and sedans for our smaller car. 

 

Along comes the maverick, and it's perfect. It's small, it's affordable, it uses a hybrid system that's been around for decades and is proven to be super reliable, it has a good warranty. Is it exciting relative to a mustang gt or a GT supercar? No. Is it more exciting and passionate than the blob shaped hatchbacks driving around? Hell yes. 

 

That's the sort of thing we're talking about here. I think people need to understand Ford is still gonna be competing in most of the segments and price points they're known for. They're just gonna turn those vehicles into things you actually want to own. The escape gets replaced with an electric crossover of similar size and price, it's just something more attractive and appealing. That sort of thing. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I think what's important to keep in mind is passion, and exciting products, they're relative to the segments they compete in. The maverick hybrid is arguably the perfect example of this. Prior to owning it, we'd never owned a truck, only hatchbacks, and sedans for our smaller car. 

 

Along comes the maverick, and it's perfect. It's small, it's affordable, it uses a hybrid system that's been around for decades and is proven to be super reliable, it has a good warranty. Is it exciting relative to a mustang gt or a GT supercar? No. Is it more exciting and passionate than the blob shaped hatchbacks driving around? Hell yes. 

 

That's the sort of thing we're talking about here. I think people need to understand Ford is still gonna be competing in most of the segments and price points they're known for. They're just gonna turn those vehicles into things you actually want to own. The escape gets replaced with an electric crossover of similar size and price, it's just something more attractive and appealing. That sort of thing. 

FoRd OnLy WaNtS to bUiLd 100k TrUcKs!!!!

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I think what's important to keep in mind is passion, and exciting products, they're relative to the segments they compete in. The maverick hybrid is arguably the perfect example of this. Prior to owning it, we'd never owned a truck, only hatchbacks, and sedans for our smaller car. 

 

Along comes the maverick, and it's perfect. It's small, it's affordable, it uses a hybrid system that's been around for decades and is proven to be super reliable, it has a good warranty. Is it exciting relative to a mustang gt or a GT supercar? No. Is it more exciting and passionate than the blob shaped hatchbacks driving around? Hell yes. 

 

That's the sort of thing we're talking about here. I think people need to understand Ford is still gonna be competing in most of the segments and price points they're known for. They're just gonna turn those vehicles into things you actually want to own. The escape gets replaced with an electric crossover of similar size and price, it's just something more attractive and appealing. That sort of thing. 

Indeed, Ford seeking out buyers that who are interested in both lifestyle vehicles but equally blessed with more than adequate performance.

 

Ford’s own research on Bronco owners showed that a lot of Mustang owners were also interested in owning a Bronco. Time has shown that interest in the Bronco was much wider than that initial data set. The use of I-4 and V6 Ecoboost  engines adds distinctiveness without direct competition with Mustang brand. I do wonder though if a RWD “Mustang based” sedan would do better with F150’s 2.7 EB and 3.5 EB hybrid for something completely different… I guess time will tell

 

Compacts

The  delivery of Maverick and Bronco Sport also offers an opportunity to explore more than just providing the Escape’s 2.0 EB and 2.5 Hybrid, the 2.0 EB hybrid set up from the Lincoln Nautilus is intriguing, especially if it can be through developed as a PHEV with AWD with rear motors.

 

Ford has plenty of potential choices to mix and match, finding the right mix to make desirable vehicles, that’s the key and that’s before considering styling changes.

 

So much potential there.

Edited October 5, 2024 by jpd80

[2005Explorer]

On 10/5/2024 at 1:55 PM, akirby said:

FoRd OnLy WaNtS to bUiLd 100k TrUcKs!!!!

Stallantis already tried that with ridiculous price increases on Jeeps and Rams. Jeeps and Rams fill the lots and aren’t selling. Some dealers have 3 model years still sitting on the lots. Short term it made for great profits, but long term it's been a disaster.

[akirby]

7 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

Stallantis already tried that with ridiculous price increases on Jeeps and Rams. Jeeps and Rams fill the lots and aren’t selling. Some dealers have 3 model years still sitting on the lots. Short term it made for great profits, but long term it's been a disaster.

That was sarcasm because that’s not what Ford is doing.

[DeluxeStang]

On 10/5/2024 at 3:24 PM, jpd80 said:

Ford has plenty of potential choices to mix and match, finding the right mix to make desirable vehicles, that’s the key and that’s before considering styling changes.

 

So much potential there.

So much potential, and so much risk. We'll see if Ford's able to pull it off. What's really intriguing regarding the styling, is Farley, as well as some of Ford's designers, have implied we may see all sorts of body styles blending together. Lifted sedans, hatchbacks that are marketed as crossovers, but are really just cars with a 1-2 inch lift, that sort of thing. 

Edited October 6, 2024 by DeluxeStang

[jpd80]

4 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

So much potential, and so much risk. We'll see if Ford's able to pull it off. What's really intriguing regarding the styling, is Farley, as well as some of Ford's designers, have implied we may see all sorts of body styles blending together. Lifted sedans, hatchbacks that are marketed as crossovers, but are really just cars with a 1-2 inch lift, that sort of thing. 

Just thinking about that..
I believe that Ford missed a golden opportunity with Fusion/Mondeo hatchback

morphing into a crossover, something that could have been built at Flat Rock.

Still a window with C2 Mondeo, it’s more Taurus size now but still applies…

 

and then there’s the dead and buried Focus Active crossover that could be lengthened and widened to a small mid sized vehicle

 

Everything doesn’t have to be an either/or choice, some vehicles probably do better in some regions than others, Ford simply pick and choose as required to pick up niche buyers.

[sullynd]

34 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Just thinking about that..
I believe that Ford missed a golden opportunity with Fusion/Mondeo hatchback

morphing into a crossover, something that could have been built at Flat Rock.

Still a window with C2 Mondeo, it’s more Taurus size now but still applies…

Yeah, just think of the tens of units they left on the table! They could have even sold a hundred or two!

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Just thinking about that..
I believe that Ford missed a golden opportunity with Fusion/Mondeo hatchback

morphing into a crossover, something that could have been built at Flat Rock.

Still a window with C2 Mondeo, it’s more Taurus size now but still applies…

 

and then there’s the dead and buried Focus Active crossover that could be lengthened and widened to a small mid sized vehicle

 

Everything doesn’t have to be an either/or choice, some vehicles probably do better in some regions than others, Ford simply pick and choose as required to pick up niche buyers.

Fusion, but also the evos. When I first saw the evos, I recall thinking how it would appeal to edge owners if Ford gave it a more upright roofline. Or to people who liked coupe crossovers but didn't want to buy a mach-e. 

 

But yeah, Ford needs to add more product to flat rock. We know that plant may be getting something else beyond the s650, but those plans seem shaky like many of Ford's others. 

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, sullynd said:

Yeah, just think of the tens of units they left on the table! They could have even sold a hundred or two!

I know what you’re doing by arguing the status quo, it’s a safe bet because

you have the data regarding all those former customers switching to Ford

utilities…….oh snap.
 

Fusion was always a good seller, it just fell off a cliff when buyers stopped 

supporting the upper trims because not properly updated compared to

the vehicle those owners were trading in….

 

What I’m thinking of is basically the Evos, a vehicle that already exists

so at least Ford has something concrete to consider as an alternative.

Edited October 7, 2024 by jpd80

[akirby]

I don’t think they ever sold very many titanium fusions.

[sullynd]

Replacing the Fusion, which didn’t sell in enough volume and/or profit to justify its continued existence with a niche model that would sell much worse is not a winning strategy. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, sullynd said:

Replacing the Fusion, which didn’t sell in enough volume and/or profit to justify its continued existence with a niche model that would sell much worse is not a winning strategy. 

It is if the niche model generates more profit with less resource commitment.

 

Porsche is discontinuing their best seller the Macan because the volume is all base models and they have to discount them to sell them.  They’d rather sell 1/4 as many Cayenne’s and 911s.

[rmc523]

13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Just thinking about that..
I believe that Ford missed a golden opportunity with Fusion/Mondeo hatchback

morphing into a crossover, something that could have been built at Flat Rock.

Still a window with C2 Mondeo, it’s more Taurus size now but still applies…

 

and then there’s the dead and buried Focus Active crossover that could be lengthened and widened to a small mid sized vehicle

 

Everything doesn’t have to be an either/or choice, some vehicles probably do better in some regions than others, Ford simply pick and choose as required to pick up niche buyers.

 

Focus Active with some cladding on the wheel wells wouldn't have moved the needle.

 

10 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Fusion, but also the evos. When I first saw the evos, I recall thinking how it would appeal to edge owners if Ford gave it a more upright roofline. Or to people who liked coupe crossovers but didn't want to buy a mach-e. 

 

But yeah, Ford needs to add more product to flat rock. We know that plant may be getting something else beyond the s650, but those plans seem shaky like many of Ford's others. 

 

More upright roofline?  So basically a new product?  lol

 

26 minutes ago, akirby said:

It is if the niche model generates more profit with less resource commitment.

 

Porsche is discontinuing their best seller the Macan because the volume is all base models and they have to discount them to sell them.  They’d rather sell 1/4 as many Cayenne’s and 911s.

 

Porsche isn't discontinuing Macan.  They just came out with an EV version.

[sullynd]

50 minutes ago, akirby said:

It is if the niche model generates more profit with less resource commitment.

 

Porsche is discontinuing their best seller the Macan because the volume is all base models and they have to discount them to sell them.  They’d rather sell 1/4 as many Cayenne’s and 911s.

I’ve got a 2010 Flex I’m willing to sell you. 

[akirby]

21 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Porsche isn't discontinuing Macan.  They just came out with an EV version.

True I should have said ICE.  But that EV Macan and boxster won’t come close to ICE volumes but should bring more profit.

[Rick73]

51 minutes ago, akirby said:

It is if the niche model generates more profit with less resource commitment.

 

Porsche is discontinuing their best seller the Macan because the volume is all base models and they have to discount them to sell them.  They’d rather sell 1/4 as many Cayenne’s and 911s.

Is Porsche business model, based on it being an exclusivity brand, comparable to Ford?  Reducing overall volume may actually help Porsche, but I’m not sure the same would apply to Ford long-term if they focus on margins so much so that they slowly shrink size to nothing.  Not implying you said that, just that Ford has to be careful balancing short-term profits versus long-term health IMO.

[morgan20]

29 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Is Porsche business model, based on it being an exclusivity brand, comparable to Ford? 

 

Yea, the head honcho big shot at Ford implied that:

 

“We’re getting out of the boring-car business and into the iconic-vehicle business”

 

Porsche of course is in the iconic-vehicle business, they do it better than anyone. Difference with Ford is that it will still have a place for boring vehicles, but those will be commercial work vehicles in Ford Pro. The head honcho said this about Ford's boring cars and crossovers:

 

"they could never justify more capital allocation – unlike commercial vehicles."

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by morgan20

[morgan20]

38 minutes ago, akirby said:

But that EV Macan and boxster won’t come close to ICE volumes but should bring more profit.

 

Yea, sales volume for the EV versions will probably be low to start, but they'll grow. Wouldn't be surprised if Porsche has a 50/50 mix of EV/gas for Macan and 718 by 2030

[Sherminator98]

20 minutes ago, morgan20 said:

 

Yea, the head honcho big shot at Ford implied that:

 

“We’re getting out of the boring-car business and into the iconic-vehicle business”

 

Porsche of course is in the iconic-vehicle business, they do it better than anyone. Difference with Ford is that it will still have a place for boring vehicles, but those will be commercial work vehicles in Ford Pro. The head honcho said this about Ford's boring cars and crossovers:

 

"they could never justify more capital allocation – unlike commercial vehicles."

 

 

Well its not like Ford is going to step on their dick with commercial vehicles anytime soon...well hopefully.

But as stated, the car/crossover business can be a little smaller if they sell slightly more expensive vehicles like what is happening with the Escape and Bronco Sport. The BS makes almost a 100,000,000 more the the Escape with roughly 13-15K less sold using a 5% vs 8% profit margin. 

[akirby]

52 minutes ago, morgan20 said:

 

Yea, sales volume for the EV versions will probably be low to start, but they'll grow. Wouldn't be surprised if Porsche has a 50/50 mix of EV/gas for Macan and 718 by 2030

718 ICE is dead next year for sure.  Macan ICE only gets 2 more years.  Then it’s EV only.

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, rmc523 said:

More upright roofline?  So basically a new product?  lol

 

Brands offer different variations of designs all the time. Changing the sheet metal aft of the b-pillar is hardly a new idea. 

[rmc523]

25 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Brands offer different variations of designs all the time. Changing the sheet metal aft of the b-pillar is hardly a new idea. 

 

So you're proposing a wagon at that point, right?

 

I thought you were saying completely changing the entire roofline to be more upright.