Ford is done with making boring cars

[rmc523]

16 hours ago, akirby said:

That’s also why I was advocating for making a street only Bronco Sport and a longer version with a hybrid option.  Those would sell without big discounts and would be easy to manufacture.

 

I think that goes against the Bronco ethos though.  If you restyled it (closer to Maverick) and make it a different name, that'd make more sense, even if I think it's good to have an Escape target a different crowd of the c-segment.

 

I'd do this:

 

Bronco Sport Max - keep BS as-is, with a lengthening - add the same 8" from Escape - this targets the segment mentioned above of buyers that need some more room but prefer the more rugged BS styling

"Escape" (whether retaining the name or a new one) - keep it more "swoopy", but push the envelope more design-wise rather than as generic as can be.

 

8 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

So in an attempt to steer this conversation back towards the idea of Ford making more aspirational products, what is each of your wishlists for future Ford products? What would you really be pushing for Ford to make if you were in a position of influence?

 

I'm gonna retread some of my own picks here, but I'd love to see an RS 200 revival. The concept they showed looks promising, but I would like to see some refinement to the design if they put it into production. It's a little blobby/lumpy from some angles. Take some aspects of that concept, and blend it with the more supercar like roofline and more upright rear end of this Ferrari design project, and it would be perfect. 

 

While this product may be cool, it's not going to sell much.....both because its market will be limited, and I'm sure Ford will charge more than Mustang for it.

 

8 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Beyond that, I almost hope the CE1 truck is a cab-over design. That would make Ford's small electric truck REALLY appealing, if slightly controversial. Not only would it be a very affordable small truck, it would be a very affordable small truck with a huge amount of utility baked in. 

 

As for the utility, it keeps bouncing back and forth depending on the source. Some have said it's more comparable to the BS, others have said it's more like an escape replacement. If it's the later, as previously mentioned, doing something that that Alpine crossover would grab a lot of attention.

 

IDK, what do you guys want to see? We don't have much evidence of Ford's exact future product plans, most of what we're saying is speculation anyways. So let's just bounce ideas off one another. 

 

A cab-over design would be far more than controversial.

 

While I understand the practical aspects of it (allows for a longer bed with the same cab/footprint, etc), I'm skeptical that'd be a good move, as we're seeing how bizarre products like Cybertruck are doing - and in that segment/pricepoint, you're not necessarily targeting the "gotta have it" crowd.

[T-dubz]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

In my area that couldn't be farther from the truth, I see lots of Outer Banks and a couple Badlands models. I'd say the spilt is like 40/40/20 with special models like the heritage making up like 2-5% out of that cut. 

 

The other thing that is interesting is that an AWD Escape Active vs a Bronco Sport Big Bend (using the options from my wife's car, which didn't have much) actually costs more MSRP-the Escape is $34850 vs $32K that the BS was.  

I see a ton of BS on the road every day. I routinely drive in three of the largest metro areas in the country. I have seen exactly one outer banks, one heritage and zero badlands. I’d guess if you live up north, where 4wd is needed more, you might see a bit more variety. I wish ford would release sales by trim. If I had to guess, nationwide would be something like 70% big bend, 20% outer banks, 5% badlands, and 5% other.
 

 

[Sherminator98]

57 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I think that goes against the Bronco ethos though.  If you restyled it (closer to Maverick) and make it a different name, that'd make more sense, even if I think it's good to have an Escape target a different crowd of the c-segment.

 

 

Instead of chasing the Bronco, why not make a 3 row Maverick inspired CUV instead? The current Maverick is as long as an Explorer, so it would be able to slot in maybe as an Edge Replacement in price, but with an optional or small 3rd Row. 

[Sherminator98]

2 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

I see a ton of BS on the road every day. I routinely drive in three of the largest metro areas in the country. I have seen exactly one outer banks, one heritage and zero badlands. I’d guess if you live up north, where 4wd is needed more, you might see a bit more variety. I wish ford would release sales by trim. If I had to guess, nationwide would be something like 70% big bend, 20% outer banks, 5% badlands, and 5% other.

 

I live in Central NJ and there are a ton of Broncos (BS and regular) on the road and EVs...I'm in more affluent area, so that would explain why I'd see higher end models.

 

Anyways I was stuck in a boring meeting just now-Bronco Sport at dealerships with in 20 mile radius of my ZIP:

123 Big Bend

74 Outer Banks

41 Bad Lands

7 Free Wheeling

19 Heritage 

 

264 Total (at dealerships and en route)

 

47% Big Bends

28% Outer Bank

16% Bad Lands

3% Free Wheeling

8% Heritage

Might not add up to 100% since I just rounded upwards

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

While this product may be cool, it's not going to sell much.....both because its market will be limited, and I'm sure Ford will charge more than Mustang for it.

 

 

A cab-over design would be far more than controversial.

 

While I understand the practical aspects of it (allows for a longer bed with the same cab/footprint, etc), I'm skeptical that'd be a good move, as we're seeing how bizarre products like Cybertruck are doing - and in that segment/pricepoint, you're not necessarily targeting the "gotta have it" crowd.

An RS 200 wouldn't shift bronco sport levels of volume, that's for sure. But it would be wise to put something else in Flat Rock, a car form factor that sells enough to make it financially viable, but doesn't sell so much that it overwhelms the production capacity of the plant. 

 

In the case of an RS 200, it wouldn't be about sales volume, rather, profit margins. One of the only enthusiasts segments Ford hasn't jumped into is an affordable exotic car. Think Hurricane, Cayman, c8, vantage. All of those cars have sold very well for what they were. The c8 is one of the best selling sports cars on sale outside of the mustang, and has a high average transaction price. It's a license to print money, and something that would strengthen Ford's brand image. Even if Ford sold 10k of the things at let's say 70 grand, it wouldn't be the worst investment for them. The Corvette sells I want to say close to 50k units a year, so 10k for a comparable car from Ford is pretty conservative. 

 

As for the cab over design, you need to do something to grab people's attention. I'm a maverick owner, I spend time with other maverick owners. It's a very conservative consumer base. A major part of the maverick's appeal to them is the fact that the maverick looks like a normal truck. But here's the thing, a lot of them have implied they don't want to go hybrid, the Ecoboost owners, and the hybrid owners, many have implied they don't want to go full EV. 

 

Some maverick owners will convert to an affordable EV truck, but I was surprised to see how many people rejected the idea on the forums. So if you aren't appealing directly to maverick owners, appeal to the people who've been asking for the return of the long bed, small truck formula for decades. 

[mackinaw]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

In my area that couldn't be farther from the truth, I see lots of Outer Banks and a couple Badlands models. I'd say the spilt is like 40/40/20 with special models like the heritage making up like 2-5% out of that cut.....   

 The Outer Banks model is pretty popular here in Northern Michigan.  Our BS is an Outer Banks.

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

A cab-over design would be far more than controversial.

 

While I understand the practical aspects of it (allows for a longer bed with the same cab/footprint, etc), I'm skeptical that'd be a good move, as we're seeing how bizarre products like Cybertruck are doing - and in that segment/pricepoint, you're not necessarily targeting the "gotta have it" crowd.

There's also the issue with product cannibalization. If this affordable EV truck is just a maverick body with an EV powertrain, will it and the maverick start to cannibalize sales off each other? Probably, and that's one of the last things you want as a brand. 

 

The maverick is a great truck. It looks like a truck, it uses powertrains that are proven, and that have been around for a very long time, it's spartan, it's basically the 90s rangers but better. It's a very good product, arguably Fords best product right now. Why not let it do it's thing? Which is being a really good truck that appeals to people who want something more conventional.

 

Then the CE1 truck can be more radical, it's a small truck like the maverick, but they're different enough to where they appeal to different types of buyers, and don't cannibalize one another. I wouldn't sell my maverick hybrid for an electric maverick. Is cab forward attractive? No, but I don't view most trucks as attractive to begin with. At least cab forward is ugly that serves a purpose. 

[DeluxeStang]

8 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 The Outer Banks model is pretty popular here in Northern Michigan.  Our BS is an Outer Banks.

You can't go down the street without seeing a bronco sport, bronco, or maverick. I know we're worried about sales volume, but even with these slightly more expensive models, I think Ford's still gonna sell the hell out of them. A maverick is more expensive than a corolla or civic. I've seen 2 new civics, and no new Corollas in my area. No-one wants them. 

[Sherminator98]

14 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Some maverick owners will convert to an affordable EV truck, but I was surprised to see how many people rejected the idea on the forums. So if you aren't appealing directly to maverick owners, appeal to the people who've been asking for the return of the long bed, small truck formula for decades. 

 

The problem with EVs that it requires people to operate their their vehicles differently then they are used to. I get the limitations if you live in an apartment or Condo development, but if you can charge somewhat easily at home, its almost a no brainer for daily driving. You'd be charging roughly once a week going to work. 

 

Once you can get people think differently or change habits, which are both hard to do, you'll get more acceptance of EVs. 

 

It just boils down to that people don't like change and really hate it if they think its "forced" on them. That is why PHEVs are helpful to gently get people used to the concept of charging, even though they have their own set of issues. 

As for your cab over idea, I'm guessing your looking for something like this

[rmc523]

27 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The problem with EVs that it requires people to operate their their vehicles differently then they are used to. I get the limitations if you live in an apartment or Condo development, but if you can charge somewhat easily at home, its almost a no brainer for daily driving. You'd be charging roughly once a week going to work. 

 

Once you can get people think differently or change habits, which are both hard to do, you'll get more acceptance of EVs. 

 

It just boils down to that people don't like change and really hate it if they think its "forced" on them. That is why PHEVs are helpful to gently get people used to the concept of charging, even though they have their own set of issues. 

As for your cab over idea, I'm guessing your looking for something like this

 

There's a reason they stopped making those haha.

 

Plus, it'd have to have some sort of "frunk" area for crumple zones I'd imagine.

[T-dubz]

I’d imagine a cab over would be a tough sell. Imagine driving in a vehicle loaded down with heavy batteries and you have nothing in front to protect you in a collision. Sitting on top of the wheels would probably get a little rough unless you equip some sort of air suspension. I can’t imagine that shape is very aerodynamic. 
 

The rivian is the best looking ev truck out there right now because it has the best proportions. I would never buy any of the new GM ev trucks because their cab forward design looks dumb. 
 

I personally hope the compact ev truck is something like the alpha wolf.

 

https://www.alphamotorinc.com/wolf

[Texasota]

19 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Escape are also sold at a much bigger discount then Bronco Sports are too

 

Even accounting for lower sales numbers and average transaction prices (via MSRP) and estimating the Escape has a 5% profit and the Bronco Sport has 8%, the Bronco Sport makes a significant more money for Ford then the Escape does. 

Any data available on those estimated profit margins? It would be interesting to see how the profit margins of the ICE, HEV and PHEV escapes compare to each other.

[akirby]

34 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Any data available on those estimated profit margins? It would be interesting to see how the profit margins of the ICE, HEV and PHEV escapes compare to each other.

Ford never releases that data.

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, T-dubz said:

I’d imagine a cab over would be a tough sell. Imagine driving in a vehicle loaded down with heavy batteries and you have nothing in front to protect you in a collision. Sitting on top of the wheels would probably get a little rough unless you equip some sort of air suspension. I can’t imagine that shape is very aerodynamic. 
 

The rivian is the best looking ev truck out there right now because it has the best proportions. I would never buy any of the new GM ev trucks because their cab forward design looks dumb. 
 

I personally hope the compact ev truck is something like the alpha wolf.

 

https://www.alphamotorinc.com/wolf

 

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The problem with EVs that it requires people to operate their their vehicles differently then they are used to. I get the limitations if you live in an apartment or Condo development, but if you can charge somewhat easily at home, its almost a no brainer for daily driving. You'd be charging roughly once a week going to work. 

 

Once you can get people think differently or change habits, which are both hard to do, you'll get more acceptance of EVs. 

 

It just boils down to that people don't like change and really hate it if they think its "forced" on them. That is why PHEVs are helpful to gently get people used to the concept of charging, even though they have their own set of issues. 

As for your cab over idea, I'm guessing your looking for something like this

Found this rendering, it's for t3, but something like this wouldn't be bad. I could see it doing really well with fleet buyers due to how practical it would be 

[Texasota]

19 hours ago, akirby said:

Escape competes with all the other C sized crossovers. BS has no direct competition.

YTD sales for Escape is 17% greater than BS. Doesn't that make the Escape sales all the more remarkable given that it competes in a hyper competitive segment and the BS has no direct competition? 

 

Even though the Escape is more boring (arguably) than the BS, they are selling better than the BS in a tough market segment. With the Escape's 2023 refresh sales improved significantly.  I think there are additional things that could be done to further improve Escape sales that would not require great amounts of investment from Ford.

 

For me, the "boring car" thing is being overplayed. I go by the "look back" factor. When I park my blob and walk away I look over my should to look at it again because I really like it. There are lots of customers where function is valued over form. They don't seek attention and could care less about making a statement.

[Deanh]

19 minutes ago, Texasota said:

YTD sales for Escape is 17% greater than BS. Doesn't that make the Escape sales all the more remarkable given that it competes in a hyper competitive segment and the BS has no direct competition? 

 

Even though the Escape is more boring (arguably) than the BS, they are selling better than the BS in a tough market segment. With the Escape's 2023 refresh sales improved significantly.  I think there are additional things that could be done to further improve Escape sales that would not require great amounts of investment from Ford.

 

For me, the "boring car" thing is being overplayed. I go by the "look back" factor. When I park my blob and walk away I look over my should to look at it again because I really like it. There are lots of customers where function is valued over form. They don't seek attention and could care less about making a statement.

several maybes in why the Escape is up on the BS there..A) its cheaper, B) its available as a FWd not AWD and C) its also avail as a hybrid and a Plug in.....oh, and D) Escapes sell more to Fleet companies....

[akirby]

14 minutes ago, Texasota said:

YTD sales for Escape is 17% greater than BS. Doesn't that make the Escape sales all the more remarkable given that it competes in a hyper competitive segment and the BS has no direct competition? 

 

Even though the Escape is more boring (arguably) than the BS, they are selling better than the BS in a tough market segment. With the Escape's 2023 refresh sales improved significantly.  I think there are additional things that could be done to further improve Escape sales that would not require great amounts of investment from Ford.

 

For me, the "boring car" thing is being overplayed. I go by the "look back" factor. When I park my blob and walk away I look over my should to look at it again because I really like it. There are lots of customers where function is valued over form. They don't seek attention and could care less about making a statement.

BS is AWD only and doesn’t offer a hybrid.  The styling is polarizing and won’t appeal to as many buyers as more traditional CUVs.  It’s also extremely short with not much cargo room.  So it’s not surprising Escape outsold it.  
 

When you bought your escape did you shop around?  Did you pay MSRP or get a discount?  Escape has to be price competitive so if CRV or RAV4 lowers prices then Ford has to match that to some extent because a lot of buyers cross shop on price.  Whereas Bronco Sport can essentially name its price and people pay it because they “gotta have it”.  That’s the difference and that’s why Bronco Sport profit margins are easily twice as high as Escape.

[Texasota]

2 minutes ago, akirby said:

BS is AWD only and doesn’t offer a hybrid.  The styling is polarizing and won’t appeal to as many buyers as more traditional CUVs.  It’s also extremely short with not much cargo room.  So it’s not surprising Escape outsold it.  
 

When you bought your escape did you shop around?  Did you pay MSRP or get a discount?  Escape has to be price competitive so if CRV or RAV4 lowers prices then Ford has to match that to some extent because a lot of buyers cross shop on price.  Whereas Bronco Sport can essentially name its price and people pay it because they “gotta have it”.  That’s the difference and that’s why Bronco Sport profit margins are easily twice as high as Escape.

I bought our 2023 Escape PHEV at X-plan price and had to wait 8 months for it. I did not cross brand shop as I'm a Ford guy. The $3750 federal rebate and a $2500 Minnesota rebate made our Escape PHEV irresistible.

 

The “gotta have it” factor wears of fairly quickly. My dealer's lot is now jam packed with Broncos and Cybertrucks are no longer “gotta have it” either.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Texasota said:

I bought our 2023 Escape PHEV at X-plan price and had to wait 8 months for it. I did not cross brand shop as I'm a Ford guy. The $3750 federal rebate and a $2500 Minnesota rebate made our Escape PHEV irresistible.

 

The “gotta have it” factor wears of fairly quickly. My dealer's lot is now jam packed with Broncos and Cybertrucks are no longer “gotta have it” either.

Bronco is still selling 100k/yr with no incentives and no price reductions.  Thats the key to profits.  

[maginty]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Bronco is still selling 100k/yr with no incentives and no price reductions.  Thats the key to profits.  

Bronco, $3500 discount in October 2024- October 9, Ford Authority.

[DeluxeStang]

7 hours ago, Texasota said:

I bought our 2023 Escape PHEV at X-plan price and had to wait 8 months for it. I did not cross brand shop as I'm a Ford guy. The $3750 federal rebate and a $2500 Minnesota rebate made our Escape PHEV irresistible.

 

The “gotta have it” factor wears of fairly quickly. My dealer's lot is now jam packed with Broncos and Cybertrucks are no longer “gotta have it” either.

I'd argue well thought out got to have it factor endures. Still love my maverick hybrid over 2 years later. Unless it becomes an absolute dumpster fire to own, which doesn't seem likely based on the data we have, I'm still gonna love it in 5-10 years. 

 

The cybertruck's wow factor wore off quickly because it's not a well designed vehicle. It's not a good practical truck, it's not a good ev. The only good thing it has going for it was the wild exterior. But they took too long to release it. The racial and bold feel wore off, and once it did, all you were left with was an ugly, poorly engineered truck. 

 

If your got to have it factor comes from stupid gimmicks, it's gonna get old fast. If it comes from having a good design and features, it'll appeal to people for years to come. 

[AM222]

14 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

 

Found this rendering, it's for t3, but something like this wouldn't be bad. I could see it doing really well with fleet buyers due to how practical it would be 

The front passenger's and driver's legs need to go somewhere. Lol 
With a front that short, the cab and hip points would have to be as tall as the Transit's. 


This Ford teaser makes more sense...

...though it kinda reminds me of Toyota's EPU Concept.

Edited October 17 by AM222

[AM222]

On 10/15/2024 at 7:04 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

For someone who is "smart" you know why:

 

Toyota exists in a protected market that favors smaller cars and has almost double the world wide market share of everyone else as a percentage (10% vs everyone else 5 or so)

Toyota thinks Global. That's why they are strong globally.

Toyota for example has a full range of vehicles from tiny city cars to a full-size truck. They have a vehicle that fits the needs of most if not all regions.  

Ford's thinking is more North American-centric. Ford is killing B-segment and C-segment cars/ crossovers models left and right, but these segments are the biggest in majority of the markets outside the USA and Canada (the rest of the world is big). In reality, the C-segment is popular in the USA too. Aside from the full-size pickups, compact SUVs like the Rav4 and CR-V occupy the top spots. 

In another thread, I posted that the Rav4 in 2023 outsold the Escape, Bronco Sport and Maverick combined in the US. Aside from that, the Rav4 also happens to be sold in more markets around the world than the Escape/Kuga. Think about the development cost of the Rav4 that's selling in much larger numbers than Ford's Escape/Kuga, Bronco Sport and Maverick globally.

Toyota and Hyundai offset the lower profit per unit by selling more vehicles globally. They can sell Corollas and Rav4s in more markets globally than Ford's F150 which is mainly a USA-Canada volume model (the F150 is marketed as a niche/ lower volume premium model in the select export markets that get it).
 

Edited October 17 by AM222

[Sherminator98]

8 hours ago, maginty said:

Bronco, $3500 discount in October 2024- October 9, Ford Authority.

 

End of year clear out for the 2025s coming, nothing unheard of. 

[akirby]

8 hours ago, maginty said:

Bronco, $3500 discount in October 2024- October 9, Ford Authority.

I do see a $500 rebate but most of that is dealer discount off MSRP which doesn’t affect Ford’s price.  Considering how much they raised MSRP the last 4 years I’d say they’re just adjusting back to normal pricing.