suv_guy_19 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Most new RETAIL Lincoln buyers are near death, or over 75.. At least the MKX isn't selling to Spanish-American war verterens. Almost none of lincolns new models sell to people that age....navigator, x, z, lt, its not a old people brand anymore.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarShark Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 I find it funny that the European wants Ford to dump the American brands, and the Americans want Ford to dump the Euro brands. A difference in priorities, much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Can't speak for the Euro's, but as an American that wants them to dump Jag and LR, I support it because Ford needs to stop wasting their money and resources on vehicles that the average consumer doesn't want or can't afford. Ford is in the business of mass producing cars, and should get back to it's roots. Not propping up failing brands because of some kind of nostalgia. Let the Chinese have them. Who cares, as long as Ford keeps Volvo. Now, if for some stupid reason this rumor turns out to be false, then do something with them. Expand the Lincoln/Mercury dealers into PAG dealers and start selling some cars, and try to make some of the money invested into these failing companies back. "God" knows, Ford has given them Billions over the years, and now could use some of it back. You don't get the fact that these premium maruqes are where the market is growing. Nasser knew this long ago. when The 3 series out sell all mid size cars world wide. It should say volumes about what is happening now. mainstream brands shrink while luxury brands grow. BTW PAG made more money than any other part of FORD. are we listening. ~ 2billion in the 1st quarter of 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMDEE Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) I think people ought to take a hard look at the last few years of sales results before forming opinions on which car brands Ford ought to sell off. Let's start with the fact that the US is the world's largest car market, so it makes a lot of sense to see what's selling here as a first step. Using that approach, it's pretty clear that both Jaguar and Volvo have some "splaining" to do. If I recall, the Ford Edge by itself is outselling the entire Volvo line, and the Edge is hardly a smash hit. At least Volvo brings something to the Ford party though, in the form of advanced safety technologies and a fairly decent platform or two. Ford has a lot of vehicles about to hit the showrooms based on the platforms shared with Volvo, both in the US and in Europe. So keeping Volvo may not be warranted on the basis of sales, but it sure makes a helpful technology and platform partner. I say keep it. Jaguar, however, is a lost cause. The only significant technology it brings is the use of advanced aluminum construction techniques. In that regard, they lead the world. Don't tell me Audi is the leader in aluminum. While it got there first with aluminum, its aluminum cars are still overweight, hundeds of pounds heavier than the big big Jaguar sedan and offering almost no advantage in weight compared to BMW and Mercedes. Trouble is, despite its superior construction, people just aren't buying the big Jag sedans. Jaguar has the same crippling conservatism as Ford, desparately afraid that people won't like them if the change the "look" more than a little. And while preserving that look, the sales drop more every year. Even look back at the experience with the Jaguar S type and the Lincoln LS, developed with a great deal of commonality. The Jaguar had looks that pleased Jaguar lovers, but most reviewers felt the Lincoln was the better car when the two were compared. For about $15,000 less. Bottom line: Jaguar has had its chance. It's time to go. I'm not sure anyone else can make it work either. I notice that nobody talks about dumping Ford's share of Mazda. Good thing too, since Ford needs Mazdas platforms, Mazda needs Ford's engines and Volvo's small platform. Leave well enough alone. So what about Mercury and Lincoln? Ford would be crazy to abandon Lincoln. Without it, it will be completely out of the near luxury and luxury car market, which it still dominated as little as ten years ago. Yes, it desparately needs to revive the brand, and yes, it will need to do that with platform sharing. Just like every other luxury brand in the under $100K market. Can't sell Lincoln's in Europe? So what? Cadillac can't sell cars in Europe either, at least not profitably. Cadillac's styling and image are laughed at in Europe. But the US luxury car market is plenty big enough to warrant keeping the brands. And let's not forget the potential of the growing markets of India and China, along with Mexico and parts of South America. There are car hungry, cash capable buyers in plenty of places other than Europe. Ford and Lincoln need a world strategy, but selling cars in Europe doesn't have to be part of it. America needs Lincoln; even Cadillac needs Lincoln to give them some domestic competition. There wouldn't be an Escalade if there wasn't first a Navigator; no CTS if there wasn't first a Nurbergring-tuned Lincoln LS. And Mercury needs to fill the gap between a slightly higher end Lincoln and the mass market Fords; and to make Lincoln dealerships viable. Mercury could easily become the Ford US brand that markets European developed Fords. They seem headed that way. The dumbest thing in the world Ford could do would be to dump Mercury and Lincoln. At that point, it would only a matter of a few years before the rest of the company collapsed. Edited June 11, 2007 by EMDEE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Lincoln can't compete? give me a break. Look at Lexus they're about to sell (if they haven't already) their 100K USD car, and it's going to fly off the lots because it's a Lexus. Cadillac failed cause GM sucks, their advertising sucks, and the interiors sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 You don't get the fact that these premium maruqes are where the market is growing. Nasser knew this long ago. when The 3 series out sell all mid size cars world wide. It should say volumes about what is happening now. mainstream brands shrink while luxury brands grow. BTW PAG made more money than any other part of FORD. are we listening. ~ 2billion in the 1st quarter of 2007. Not sure on worldwide premium numbers but , June 4, 2007 European medium car market under continued pressure from niche segments • Upper medium car market down 17.7 per cent year-to-date • Premium upper medium car market down 3.0 per cent year-to-date • MPV and SUV segments continue to grow strongly as consumer demand shifts The upper medium segment has been steadily declining for several years and so far this year the volume end of D segment is a further 17.7 per cent down during the period January to April. Even the somewhat stronger premium end of the D-segment (incorporating popular models such as the BMW 3-Series and Audi A4) is suffering with a 3.0 per cent decline in the same period. source: http://www.jato.com/extFrameSet.asp?page=54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Brilliant move, Ford. Spend billions fixing PAG brands and then sell them off when they are finally starting to show a glimmer of profit. Amazing Ford, simply amazing. I hope whoever you end up selling it to makes billions from your efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 its not a old people brand anymore.... uh...........yeah it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Cadillac failed cause GM sucks You should of just posted "I am a biased fool, you'd be stupid to listen to anything I post" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Brilliant move, Ford. Spend billions fixing PAG brands and then sell them off when they are finally starting to show a glimmer of profit. Amazing Ford, simply amazing. I hope whoever you end up selling it to makes billions from your efforts. oh it will happen. Jaguar is finally back on peoples radar with the new XK. If the XF is anywhere near as good looking we may see huge improvements at Jag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donzuchowski Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Source: http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articl...43_FORTUNE5.htm DETROIT -(Dow Jones)- Ford Motor Co. (F) has hired Goldman Sachs Group (GS) and Morgan Stanley (MS) to shop the struggling auto maker's Premier Automotive Group European luxury brands, according to an advance copy of an Automotive News Europe story that cites unnamed sources. The full Automotive News Europe story, which also says Italian auto maker Fiat SpA (F.MI) was interested in buying the Jaguar and Land Rover brands, will be published Monday. Fiat and Ford abandoned those talks in late May, the Automotive News story says. "We don't comment on speculation and (this story) is speculation," Ford spokesman Ray Day said Saturday. Ford, evaluating several options as it works to restructure its business, also talked to BMW AG earlier this year in relation to Ford's Swedish Vovlo brand, which is also a part of Ford's PAG unit. Ford recently said it isn't in the process of selling Volvo. Ford earlier in 2007 sold its Aston Martin brand to a group of investors. According to Automotive News Europe, Fiat group CEO Sergio Marchionne and Lewis Booth, head of Premier Automotive Group ended the discussions on a Jaguar and Land Rover sale because Fiat feared an adverse effect on its improving credit rating. Both Ford brands would have been useful to Fiat as the emboldened carmaker prepares to launch its Alfa Romeo brand in the U.S. in the first half of 2009, the report says. The growing market for SUVs as well as Land Rover's U.S. dealer network made the brand appealing to Fiat. -By John D. Stoll, Dow Jones Newswires; 248-204-5533; john.stoll@dowjones BMW would not buy Land Rover since BMW sold Land Rover to Ford to begin with, Volvo maybe not Land Rover.... But Ford needs PAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 They have been showing "glimmer of profit" for how many years? They have dumped in how many Billions to fix them, not including the Billions to purchase them? Time to get out now. In fact, it was time 5 years ago. What a frakkin waste. Think of the product Ford could have developed for North America if it didn't have these two welfare cases. Except the "glimmer of profit" in the past was a "hope for profit" which never materialized. PAG is actually making money NOW. With Jaguar receiving the XF in '08 and new XJ in '09, the potential to build on those profits is huge. If Ford was to dump all of its money-losers, they'd have to axe their North American operations too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Except the "glimmer of profit" in the past was a "hope for profit" which never materialized. PAG is actually making money NOW. With Jaguar receiving the XF in '08 and new XJ in '09, the potential to build on those profits is huge. If Ford was to dump all of its money-losers, they'd have to axe their North American operations too. I believe that Ford will eventually sell Jaguar/Land Rover, but will keep minority ownership in it of about 20% and still share components and platforms. I believe Ford still has about 10% stake in Aston Martin and about 33% stake in Mazda and Mazda and Ford share platforms and components. In this way they can still share in the profits and less downside when they lose big money. By owning most of these companies, it seems to spread Ford too thin to where they take eye off ball and get in trouble in North America and Europe. Ford is finally recovering in Europe after long decline, but road back is still long and arduous and Ford doesn't need Land Rover quality problems and Jaguar's dismal sales to further complicate matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 How could Ford sell off Mercury? There is no such vehicle really. Mercurys are just rebadged Fords. There is ZERO difference. Even Lincoln would be tough to sell as all four Lincoln Vehicles (Navigator, Town Car, MKZ and MKX) are just thinly disguised pimped out Fords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 I believe that Ford will eventually sell Jaguar/Land Rover, but will keep minority ownership in it of about 20% and still share components and platforms. I believe Ford still has about 10% stake in Aston Martin and about 33% stake in Mazda and Mazda and Ford share platforms and components. In this way they can still share in the profits and less downside when they lose big money. By owning most of these companies, it seems to spread Ford too thin to where they take eye off ball and get in trouble in North America and Europe. Ford is finally recovering in Europe after long decline, but road back is still long and arduous and Ford doesn't need Land Rover quality problems and Jaguar's dismal sales to further complicate matters. Im not sure how Land Rovers quality issues are a drain on Ford NA. Im pretty sure they have their own designers and their own engineers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 How could Ford sell off Mercury? There is no such vehicle really. Mercurys are just rebadged Fords. There is ZERO difference. Even Lincoln would be tough to sell as all four Lincoln Vehicles (Navigator, Town Car, MKZ and MKX) are just thinly disguised pimped out Fords. I beleive we may see a change...aka MKR and the like...bout bloody time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Let's see now: I've been seeing a lot of Jags and Land Rovers lately. Volvo seems to be doing well with 400K units annually. Ford has put at least $12 billion or more into PAG. Conclusion: Ford will not only be dumb enough to sell PAG, they'll sell it for about $4 billion. DUMB! But they will! That's what Ford does! Oh why I think of it, why in the hell do I see so many Honda Ridgelines lately? Are they giving them away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) Notice how no one has picked up this story. And I love all this dump Jag mumbo. Why is Jag still losing money, because it has been mismanged something that FORD could have prevented. Need I go on about the X Type. Edited June 11, 2007 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 My friends at work think Ford is going bust, think a few may not by a Ford in case the warranties go bang. Selling PAG seems like the last act of a desperate company, especially when it generated 2 billion dollars in profit in Q1. Serious questions now need to be asked of Mullaly. Why is he selling the profitable bit off when they will just have to pay all the debt off that they secured against PAG? It's barmy. Someone said the Europeans thing Ford should close or sell of some American bits and American's think the opposite. Maybe the answer is to put the lot up for sale. See what no one want's and then shut those bits. Bye bye most of Ford North America. Say's it all and explains in a nutshell why some PAG fans think either Mercury or Lincoln should go instead.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 My friends at work think Ford is going bust, think a few may not by a Ford in case the warranties go bang. Selling PAG seems like the last act of a desperate company, especially when it generated 2 billion dollars in profit in Q1. Serious questions now need to be asked of Mullaly. Why is he selling the profitable bit off when they will just have to pay all the debt off that they secured against PAG? It's barmy. Someone said the Europeans thing Ford should close or sell of some American bits and American's think the opposite. Maybe the answer is to put the lot up for sale. See what no one want's and then shut those bits. Bye bye most of Ford North America. Say's it all and explains in a nutshell why some PAG fans think either Mercury or Lincoln should go instead.... Umm, yeah because it's not like Ford hasn't secured billions of dollars for future use. Besides there is a lot of things that company could do before it is forced into bankruptcy. I love it when joe schmoe claims that 'x' company is going to go bankrupt. I mean are they looking at the company's books and know some inside information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 You don't get the fact that these premium maruqes are where the market is growing. Nasser knew this long ago. Given how badly Nasser managed essentially everything-especially QC-I'm not certain Nasser knows his ass from ice cream. Give him a spoon, and we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 I bet this turns out to be yet another BS rumor like Volvo getting bought out by BMW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 especially when it generated 2 billion dollars in profit in Q1. I think you got your decimals in the wrong place. From what I recall, Q1 earnings from PAG were in the range of $200M, NOT $2B. I believe the $2B number was tossed around as a possible profit margin of PAG for entire FY07. Either way, nothing to sneeze at...and certainly a silly asset to sell off if they have become self-sustaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 So is there anyone else here that thinks Ford would do just fine with Ford Lincoln Mercury Mazda and Volvo? Maybe Ford is at the point where they should focus on those 5 brands and let Jag and LR go if the price is right. I hate to see the Company sell anything...but if it would improve their focus on those 5 brands...then let Jag and LR go. In the end...Ford is and always was a volume producer of lower to moderately priced automobiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g48150 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Guys, Guys, Guys remember that Ford NORTH AMERICA is the only business marque that has the mortgage payment coming due in 2009, not the other ones! For the Ford Family, this is perverse diversification. This is going to suck worse than that ing Sopranos finale last night. One day, its just lights out, fade to black... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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