Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 It's not so much the fact that Ford only gave the Fusion 221 HP alone. It's the fact that Ford gave the Fusion 221 HP when they have a 265 HP engine readily available to go right into the thing whenever they want. my question is for what reason? they could probably easily juice up the 3.0, smooth it out, improve economy and make a bigger engine redundant....personally a 3.0 in that size car seems like a perfect marriage...why does everyone want another SHO Festiva? or 5.0 Miata in a mainstream application...save the dramatics for the SVT versions.....just refine/ improve current engines like BMW seems to.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Ford spent $355M at Lima tooling it up for 3.5L production (and generally upgrading the line). The Duratec30 is being built at CEP2, which has not received an investment in new tooling to bring it on par with the rest of Ford's engine plants. So you're looking at $350+ M and a lot of new equipment (and employee training, etc.) It would not be simple to just 'start' building 3.5s at CEP2. In the grand scheme of things, $350M to retool a plant is not that much. You agree they ARE planning to retool it to build 3.5's right? So why WAIT and do it later when they need it NOW? $350M today is going to be $350M tomorrow. Either way, they're going to spend it eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 (edited) double post. WTF! Edited August 22, 2007 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 my question is for what reason? they could probably easily juice up the 3.0, smooth it out, improve economy and make a bigger engine redundant....personally a 3.0 in that size car seems like a perfect marriage...why does everyone want another SHO Festiva? or 5.0 Miata in a mainstream application...save the dramatics for the SVT versions.....just refine/ improve current engines like BMW seems to.... For what reason? The 3.0 is entirely uncompetitive. Even this so-called PIP 3.0 is likely just going to be a band-aid. Like I said to RJ, you DO agree that Ford is eventually going to replace all 3.0's with 3.5's right? So why bother waiting? If the 3.0 was a perfect marriage for the Fusion, people wouldn't be complaining about its utter lack of power compared to its competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 For what reason? The 3.0 is entirely uncompetitive. Even this so-called PIP 3.0 is likely just going to be a band-aid. Like I said to RJ, you DO agree that Ford is eventually going to replace all 3.0's with 3.5's right? So why bother waiting? If the 3.0 was a perfect marriage for the Fusion, people wouldn't be complaining about its utter lack of power compared to its competition. Well from rumors stated by others..the 3L is being kept for CAFE reasons...we don't have any hard info on the PIP 3L yet, so your willing to automatically assume that its a lost cause? As for the Fusion...I haven't seen one review or anyone who own ones and post here complain about its "utter lack of power" compared to the competition...besides people bench racing them in magazines... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 In the grand scheme of things, $350M to retool a plant is not that much. You agree they ARE planning to retool it to build 3.5's right? So why WAIT and do it later when they need it NOW? $350M today is going to be $350M tomorrow. Either way, they're going to spend it eventually. Point wasn't the money, it was the time commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 (edited) For what reason? The 3.0 is entirely uncompetitive. Even this so-called PIP 3.0 is likely just going to be a band-aid. Like I said to RJ, you DO agree that Ford is eventually going to replace all 3.0's with 3.5's right? So why bother waiting? If the 3.0 was a perfect marriage for the Fusion, people wouldn't be complaining about its utter lack of power compared to its competition. only uncompettive due to lack of updates and refinement...check out Nissans 6 cyl and BMW's 6...both stem from a constant barrage of upgrades to basically an "Old" engine...and they get lauded by the press ( possibly due to domestic bias...ahem... ).....and contrary to everyones thinking, i have a gut feeeling we may be eventually steered to smaller more efficient designs rather than just being satisfied with larger pots. And I too have yet to hear any complaints about "Lack of Power" from any OWNERS...NOT chest beating magazine scribes....I am sure ( perhaps even with mazdas help ) the 3.0 could be improved to world class no problems...but as of now OWNERS are perfectly happy....now add PIP some fairy dust and VOILA! Edited August 22, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 only uncompettive due to lack of updates and refinement...check out Nissans 6 cyl and BMW's 6...both stem from a constant barrage of upgrades to basically an "Old" engine...and they get lauded by the press ( possibly due to domestic bias...ahem... ).....and contrary to everyones thinking, i have a gut feeeling we may be eventually steered to smaller more efficient designs rather than just being satisfied with larger pots. And I too have yet to hear any complaints about "Lack of Power" from any OWNERS...NOT chest beating magazine scribes....I am sure ( perhaps even with mazdas help ) the 3.0 could be improved to world class no problems...but as of now OWNERS are perfectly happy....now add PIP some fairy dust and VOILA! Owners? All 12 of them? I wonder how many people are NOT owners because they didn't even bother test-driving one because of the weak V6. The Duratec 35 made the Taurus MORE fuel efficient than the Duratec 30 powered Five Hundred, so there goes the CAFE argument out the window, unless Ford has found some magical way to make the old D30 leaps and bounds better than it used to be -- if which true one must ask: why the hell didn't they do it years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 (edited) Owners? All 12 of them? I wonder how many people are NOT owners because they didn't even bother test-driving one because of the weak V6. The Duratec 35 made the Taurus MORE fuel efficient than the Duratec 30 powered Five Hundred, so there goes the CAFE argument out the window, unless Ford has found some magical way to make the old D30 leaps and bounds better than it used to be -- if which true one must ask: why the hell didn't they do it years ago? bet the sales figures ( all 12 of them )for the "weak" 6 cyl Fusion outnumber ALL of the manuals from your faves put together......and someone correct me if I am wrong...is the 3.5 a mere bolt in? or does it require sheetmetal changes, and does it bolt up to the same transmission....somehow I think Nicks quick fix is not as easy as it seems on the surface. Truth be told also Nick...a styling change will sell more cars than shoehorning in a bigger engine.... Edited August 22, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 bet the sales figures ( all 12 of them )for the "weak" 6 cyl Fusion outnumber ALL of the manuals from your faves put together......and someone correct me if I am wrong...is the 3.5 a mere bolt in? or does it require sheetmetal changes, and does it bolt up to the same transmission....somehow I think Nicks quick fix is not as easy as it seems on the surface. Truth be told also Nick...a styling change will sell more cars than shoehorning in a bigger engine.... The 3.5 went into the MKZ with zero sheet metal changes. Why would the Fusion or Milan be any different? Yes, the V6 Fusion outsells all of my beloved manual transmission babies. But Camry and Accord V6's outsell all Fusions combined. You don't impress anybody by playing second fiddle on things that are relatively EASY to correct. Ford is not going to convince anybody they are serious if they keep doing things 80% of the way, especially when they HAVE the ability to do it 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 The 3.5 went into the MKZ with zero sheet metal changes. Why would the Fusion or Milan be any different? Yes, the V6 Fusion outsells all of my beloved manual transmission babies. But Camry and Accord V6's outsell all Fusions combined. You don't impress anybody by playing second fiddle on things that are relatively EASY to correct. Ford is not going to convince anybody they are serious if they keep doing things 80% of the way, especially when they HAVE the ability to do it 100%. I would LOVE to get a breakdown of PURE V6 sales....I think you would be surprized....most Camrys sold are 4's I beleive.....one of the reasons the Fusion sells a few more 6's is a 6cyl Fusion isn't much more than a 4 cyl Camry.....bang for the buck....restyle, PIP, variable cams, headwork, free up the exhaust, make the perifials electric to lower parasitic losses.....250hp 3.0...probably lighter too, no need for having to do more suspension tuning etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Nick you bring up some good points........then again so do the rest of you. Quite frankly there really is NO excuse. CAFE and production constraints aside, Ford should have earmarked somewhere around 5,000 Fusions with a true sports package. This is something that could have been done without off setting other variables producing ripples in the various areas that some posters commented on. By offering up: -D35 -Improved handling dynamics (achieved by adding beefier suspension components) -Improved seat bolstering -Better brakes -Better breathing -Performance tune .....Ford would have had an easy way to draw more consumers into their showrooms too take a gander at these 'new' and 'improved' Fusions. These add ons would have been minimal as all the research has pretty much been done for them and would offer up a lot more performance bang for the buck. On the flip side of that, I for one have found the D30 VVT engine more than engaging when it comes time to ask the mill to muster up power to get you moving. The D30 in conjunction with the 6 spd auto work very well together, and really should not get the cold shoulder that most are willing to give it because of the specs alone. It really is a nice engine, not the best but damn good for the way that it is spec'd. I've already added a few bolt ons to mine, and performance wise (with a better intake and engine retune) the D30 has awaken to provide at least the same level performance as some of the mainstream competition. Until I can see some of the specs on the PIP D30, I will reserve judgement but that engine is more than capable. Yes, the Fusion deserves a best in class powerplant, but I don't think that happens to be one of the vehicles major short cummings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofford Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Until I can see some of the specs on the PIP D30, I will reserve judgement but that engine is more than capable. What is the point of the PIP D30 if the 3.5 is already here and has better mileage/performance than the D30? Why invest in the older D30 while also producing the 3.5 and (apparently) planning for a 3.7, turbo versions, etc.? Not sure I understand the justification for the "PIP" program with the D30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 . What is the point of the PIP D30 if the 3.5 is already here and has better mileage/performance than the D30? Why invest in the older D30 while also producing the 3.5 and (apparently) planning for a 3.7, turbo versions, etc.? Not sure I understand the justification for the "PIP" program with the D30. IIRC, PIP D30 is a carryover until there are enough D35/37 online. Last I checked, there's only going to be one line of D30 so I speculate there'll be the best stuff the D30 had to offer. Simply put and it was covered here before, there are not enough D35/37 to go around and speeding up production I feel will only cause problems. I also believe the PIP D30 project was around for a while so you might as well follow through and get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Camry and Accord only sell about 20% V6 models, or around 80K Camrys and 70K Accords. Fusion sells 40% V6 models and Milan is 60% which combined should be about 80K. 240 hp with BETTER fuel economy than the Camcord V6s would be fine. Nobody buys a Camcord over a Fulan because of a few extra HP. When camry upped their V6 to 268 hp did sales increase? No. Will sales of the 2008 Accord V6 go up because of the extra 28 hp? No. People decide whether they want a Camcord or something else, then they decide whether they want the I4 or the V6. AWD OTOH would sway someone to a Fulan over a Camcord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue II Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 (edited) Nick you bring up some good points........then again so do the rest of you. Quite frankly there really is NO excuse. CAFE and production constraints aside, Ford should have earmarked somewhere around 5,000 Fusions with a true sports package. This is something that could have been done without off setting other variables producing ripples in the various areas that some posters commented on. By offering up: -D35 -Improved handling dynamics (achieved by adding beefier suspension components) -Improved seat bolstering -Better brakes -Better breathing -Performance tune .....Ford would have had an easy way to draw more consumers into their showrooms too take a gander at these 'new' and 'improved' Fusions. These add ons would have been minimal as all the research has pretty much been done for them and would offer up a lot more performance bang for the buck. On the flip side of that, I for one have found the D30 VVT engine more than engaging when it comes time to ask the mill to muster up power to get you moving. The D30 in conjunction with the 6 spd auto work very well together, and really should not get the cold shoulder that most are willing to give it because of the specs alone. It really is a nice engine, not the best but damn good for the way that it is spec'd. I've already added a few bolt ons to mine, and performance wise (with a better intake and engine retune) the D30 has awaken to provide at least the same level performance as some of the mainstream competition. Until I can see some of the specs on the PIP D30, I will reserve judgement but that engine is more than capable. Yes, the Fusion deserves a best in class powerplant, but I don't think that happens to be one of the vehicles major short cummings. It's getting the GTDI 2.5 I-4. Edited August 22, 2007 by Blue II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 It's getting the GTDI 2.5 I-4. sorry..G?T?..Direct Injection...splain...also....when? Thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 (edited) sorry..G?T?..Direct Injection...splain...also....when? Thx. Gas direct injection (twin) Turbo :D 2009 refresh Edited August 22, 2007 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehaase Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 But the mid size market prefers V6's to turbocharged 4 cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Gas direct injection (twin) Turbo :D 2009 refresh you sure about the Twin turbo? or is it just single.......either way.....NIIIIIIIIIIIICE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 But the mid size market prefers V6's to turbocharged 4 cylinders. sigh....This is the goddamn performance model that everyone is bitching about...you'll still be able to get a V6 if thats what you want.... Or it will be the I4 that gives you 4 cyc MPG with V6 power.... Some people are never happy :rolleyes: you sure about the Twin turbo? or is it just single.......either way.....NIIIIIIIIIIIICE! Not sure if its twin or single... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 sigh....This is the goddamn performance model that everyone is bitching about...you'll still be able to get a V6 if thats what you want.... Or it will be the I4 that gives you 4 cyc MPG with V6 power.... Some people are never happy :rolleyes: Not sure if its twin or single... RIGHT up my alley...LOVE small efficient engines.....sure the smoothness of a six ( especially Twin Turboed ) is nice, but look at how popular VW/ Audis 1.8 is/ has been...even with the press....oh $hit this is a domestic...all we will hear is complaints about how it IS a four.....THIS could be a great engine, a base in the Fusion....a performance in a Focus.....hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 ....THIS could be a great engine, a base in the Fusion....a performance in a Focus.....hmmmm IIRC a normal 2.5L will replace the 2.3L in the Fusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue II Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 sigh....This is the goddamn performance model that everyone is bitching about...you'll still be able to get a V6 if thats what you want.... Or it will be the I4 that gives you 4 cyc MPG with V6 power.... Some people are never happy :rolleyes: Not sure if its twin or single... Twin Scroll like Power Stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 (edited) Twin Scroll like Power Stroke. cool...hopefully nothing to do with navistar...LOL! so turboed will basically be the standard base engine for the 4 cylinder fusion...or will it be a sports version upgrade? Edited August 22, 2007 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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