Meet the production Ford Kuga

[NickF1011]

They could have been higher.

 

They could have been lower too. Ford asked a LOT of customers their input on the axle choice in the new Mustang. They went with what the consumer wanted. Would an optional IRS be good? Maybe for some people. Would it be worth offering? We have no idea unless we see Ford's internal polling data and cost estimates....my guess is no.

[Pioneer]

Thats the problem, the naysayers think if Ford doesn't come out with a product that beats every single thing out on the market its an automatic failure.

 

 

And the problem with the "yes crew" is that they laud every product Ford produces, no matter how good or bad it is. Funny thing is, the stock, revenue, and market share keeps going down. Guess which group is right.

[silvrsvt]

Guess which group is right.

 

Then why even bother to come here? Just to Troll? Your not changing anything either...

 

If anything your contributing further to the problem

[DCK]

Thats the problem, the naysayers think if Ford doesn't come out with a product that beats every single thing out on the market its an automatic failure. Doing so is just about impossible, since the market changes so much and there is so much competition out there...then add in various Technical issues, for example 3.5L V6 in the Escape, those engines don't just appear out of the air. That the rub, Ford has to change the product to keep it "fresh" and that might entail using carryover powertrains or whatnot. I get this feeling naysayers want Ford to carry over older products till they get the new ones "perfect" in their eyes (ie build the post 05 Focus till the C2 gets here) but thats a recipe for disaster even more so then doing it "good enough"

 

With that being say, its not an excuse that Ford can't do better with product development, but it might as well try improving current product as much as it can without giving up...

1. The Edge and Taurus both have many shortcomings but I don't bash them(only their marketing) because Ford put effort into them. No effort was put into the escape and focus.

 

2. PLAN AHEAD! were the previous management so retarded? I mean seriously, they should have the shit ready, they should plan ahead. Rarely if ever are Honda and Toyota turing out uncompetitive shitboxes as "all new" because their technology wasn't ready. Ford does it with every fricking damn launch, "new" products which are uncompetitive and stale with the excuses of "hey we got more changes next model year that weren't ready in time" It is because they don't plan ahead, the same reason why Ford NA didn't get the C1 focus and Kuga. They don't think about the future.

Edited November 25, 2007 by DCK

[Biker16]

1) It's Horbury.

2) Horbury didn't design the 427, some other Brit did.

3) From the U.S. declaration of independence:

Imposing vehicles on the NA market without it's 'consent' is foolish. Vehicles designed and built in Europe with no input from U.S. consumers and U.S. engineers should not be, must not be sold here. It is the equivalent of 'taxation without representation.' It makes no sense whatsoever, and only someone blinded to the differences between these two vehicle markets could possibly believe otherwise.

 

so you are saying, that the US needs Americans to design and engineer their cars, right?

 

The real question is why have had such unsuccessful Cars is because of the EVIL Yuoropeen designers and sinister European engineers

 

The Verve

 

up to now there has been very positive buzz about this product that. was designed fully by FoE.

 

SO Rich we should not sell the Verve here because it was not designed and engineered here?

 

of course not.

 

so.

 

We share where we can.

 

with the US market at 16-17 million, Europe at 17 million an growing. china, india etc. We cannot be soo arrogant to think, we are the center of the universe.

 

basically C-E cars can be shared. because there is nothing American or European about cars, what does matter is the needs of the customer which doesn't not have borders.

[RichardJensen]

so you are saying, that the US needs Americans to design and engineer their cars, right?

How stupid do you think I am?

 

I mean what, in particular, have I said on this forum to suggest that I am that xenophobic?

 

What I've said, not what you've read because you're too busy trying to squeeze me into one of your pet stereotypes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ford does not need US designers, US engineers, anything. Heck, the whole car could be designed on Mars for all I care. With this CAVEAT:

 

 

INPUT FROM US CUSTOMERS

 

How stupid are YOU to think that a vehicle can be designed and engineered with input from EUROPEAN customers and be JUST fine in the US?

 

HAS THE TOTAL FAILURE OF VW NOT SUNK IN YET?

 

 

Geez.

 

End Rant.

[danup]

I'm a much bigger fan of Ford of Europe cars than RichardJensen is, which isn't hard, but even then to say that the needs of the customer don't have borders is asinine. There's a reason that Europe has A-cars and we have full-size cars, or that Australia is still the land of big rear-drive sedans--the needs and wants of the customers have dictated that.

 

That said, I think a car like the Verve will be successful anywhere, regardless of how much input America has (although I'm glad the US will be getting a version more cohesive with its design direction.) The Kuga? Well, I don't know that it'll be successful anywhere.

[ANTAUS]

"Thats the problem, the naysayers think if Ford doesn't come out with a product that beats every single thing out on the market its an automatic failure. Doing so is just about impossible,"

 

 

OK, but if the competition can do it, and pull it off, why can't Ford? When Toyota redesigned the Rav4, they threw in quite a drive-train package there. They seem to be able to introduce new vehicles, with the correct powertrain, from the start...same with Nissan, same with Honda.

 

And we can start with the "engine and vehicle development cycles don't coincide" again...if others can do it, why can't Ford? FIX it, it CAN be done....

 

I feel like Mommy Dearest in that wire hanger scene."...No More mediocrity, EVER!!!!!".....

[RichardJensen]

I feel like Mommy Dearest in that wire hanger scene."...No More mediocrity, EVER!!!!!".....

Uh huh. And that doesn't make you stop and think?

 

Don't make me bring up the M*A*S*H "meatball surgery" triage metaphor again. Ford is moving out of ER mode ("stop the bleeding"), but they are nowhere near healthy. Expecting them to do what healthy companies do is just about as smart as expecting a car accident survivor with multiple broken bones to run a marathon.

 

Frankly, what the market does is out of Ford's control. Ford execs understand that, and unlike some on this board, they are not busy beating and berating their engineers in the hopes that somehow it will cause more work to be done.

[FordBuyer]

Godforbid someone ran Ford that wanted to fix all there shortcomings, oh wait, now they do. The people before with your mentality ruined the company and the were finally cut.

 

The 2008 Focus and Escape are not the correct way to treat product especially facing Ford current predicament. But you somehow feel putting out uncompetitive product in a segment you used to dominate, only to bargain bin price and fleet dumb to move them, while the segment balloons is the proper way to handle product? Add in the fact that Honda and Toyota eclipsed the Escape, but it sure is doing a "fine" job.

 

Toyota and Hond got where they are today by focusing on and fixing their shortcomings, Fords previous mentality(the mentality that created the 08 escape and focus) was "what is the least we can to make the product "good enough""

 

Yeah I do tend to look for where the product is lacking, Sorry, but unlike you I wish to see Ford prosper with segment leading products, you don't, you want Ford to continue to put out shitty products. WTF is wrong with you? DO YOU NOT WISH FOR THEM TO SUCCEED?

 

 

Let's get this straight once and for all:

 

When reskinned Escape came out early this year, Ford did not have the upgraded engine and trans ready. So should have Ford delayed the reskinned launch until it had new powertrain ready, or should it have done what it did....produce reskinned Escape with same powertrain? Now if Ford had waited another year until new powertrain ready, how badly would Escape sales been the rest of this year and now much market share would Ford have left when all new Escape launched.

 

Ditto for Focus. Should Ford have just stayed with 2007 Focus for another two years since all new Focus won't be ready for another two years, or should it have reskinned the Focus to make it look new as it did to survive with it essentially another two years. Having new powertrains ready for both cars wasn't an option since they were not ready and they won't be ready for sometime. That was and is the reality. Engine development often takes longer than the vehicle itself. Ford's parts bin is threadbare at the moment, and Ford tried to make do with what it had. Wishing for more isn't going to help.

 

So you guys can be armchair quarterbacks all you want, but if the powertrain is not there, no wishing is going to make it appear. Look how long we waited for new 3.5 Liter V6. It took years to develop that engine and bring it to production. The new Focus and Escape are not Ford's best efforts, but they will have to do until Ford can get new powertrains for them or all new platforms or both. We do know the Escape will be powertrain update in 2009 and all new Focus in about two years. Whining about present ones are not going to get them here anytime sooner.

[Biker16]

How stupid do you think I am?

 

I mean what, in particular, have I said on this forum to suggest that I am that xenophobic?

 

What I've said, not what you've read because you're too busy trying to squeeze me into one of your pet stereotypes.

Ford does not need US designers, US engineers, anything. Heck, the whole car could be designed on Mars for all I care. With this CAVEAT:

INPUT FROM US CUSTOMERS

 

How stupid are YOU to think that a vehicle can be designed and engineered with input from EUROPEAN customers and be JUST fine in the US?

 

HAS THE TOTAL FAILURE OF VW NOT SUNK IN YET?

Geez.

 

End Rant.

 

 

input from US consumers of course. What is the new reality is that markets can cross borders, demographic markets can cross oceans.

 

BMW sells cars here and there, ford sells car here and there.

 

focus on the 90% that is in common and make the 10% fit each market. but generally there are less differnces than you think.

 

I never said you were, stupid it can be inferred by some of your posts.

 

total failure of VW is a bit extreme.

[RichardJensen]

total failure of VW is a bit extreme.

Not much.

 

They were a success story in the U.S. when you could successfully sell vehicles engineered for Europeans to U.S. citizens. You can't anymore. Not at the VW/Ford price point.

 

VW was the #1 import brand in the U.S. until the early 80s.

 

What changed?

 

Toyota, Honda and Nissan all started engineering products for the U.S.

 

-----

 

As far as there being less differences than I think, I suggest you compare the best selling vehicles in the US vs. Europe. Toyota pulled the Camry off the market in Europe because it was not a success; the very same Camry that is the best selling vehicle in the U.S.

[pcsario]

Toyota, Honda and Nissan all started TWEAKING their products for the U.S.

 

Fixed.

 

There's a DRASTIC difference between what you're saying (engineer cars for the US), and just TWEAKING them for US consumption (ie: giving it seats designed for fat people and so on). Those are FORMULAIC changes. Keyword being: FORMULAIC.

 

That Camry you love to talk about? It's a global product too, ditto with the Accord.

 

To imply their entire lineup was created FOR the US is hilarious. Unless, of course, you want to argue Toyota and Honda just like to sell unsold US inventory in Australia and other parts of the world, as an afterthought.

 

Civic and Corolla sedans are global too. So much for "Toyohonda's best sellers were were made for the US", when the reality is, they just got minor tweaks. Second keyword being: MINOR.

 

"Design it HERE"?

 

 

 

No thanks.

Edited November 25, 2007 by pcsario

[ANTAUS]

I believe the Accord name is global, BUT the N.A. Accord is specific to us if I remember correctly. The Acura TSX is really the global Accord. I believe the same is said for the Oddysey, not sure about that one though....

[TomServo92]

I believe the Accord name is global, BUT the N.A. Accord is specific to us if I remember correctly. The Acura TSX is really the global Accord. I believe the same is said for the Oddysey, not sure about that one though....

 

That's not entirely correct. For instance, the US Accord is also sold South America and China. The Euro Accord is also sold in Africa, the Middle East (I think) and Russia. From what I can tell, Honda sells whichever model makes sense for the intended market.

[pcsario]

Exactly.

 

Ditto with the Fit.

 

A few minor tweaks, and that's it.

[rmc523]

I've been wondering if Ford, or any of the Detroit Three, will take advantage of the dollar/euro thing and start making cars here that can be imported to Europe. Seems like this would be an idea worth pursuing. I know this would make the UAW happy.

 

I think GM is going to make some Opel car here (Zafira or something like that) and export it to Europe. I believe Chevy may get a version as well.

[Biker16]

As far as there being less differences than I think, I suggest you compare the best selling vehicles in the US vs. Europe. Toyota pulled the Camry off the market in Europe because it was not a success; the very same Camry that is the best selling vehicle in the U.S.

 

the F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the country BTW.

 

what is American about the Camry?

 

The ride?

sloppy handling?

Faux European stying?

VW inspired interior.

 

this is what an American car is today?

what makes the Asian camry more american than than the American Mondeo.

 

 

 

this is Toyota of Europe's CD car.

 

this is Ford's CD car.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

what is American about the Camry?

What works?

 

It's reasonably priced, reliable, spacious, and comfortable.

[RichardJensen]

And you know how the Accord is the second best selling car? Well, it too is NA only.

 

 

 

 

Seeing a bit of a pattern here?

[Biker16]

What works?

 

It's reasonably priced, reliable, spacious, and comfortable.

so is the fusion.

 

why isn't the fusion number 1?

 

perceived reliability

Comfort

 

I really don't think there is anything that can be done about Perceived reliability.

 

but the fusion doesn't excel in comfort. Average NVH, ride comfort, and creature comforts.

The Mondeo would do better in NVH, and creature comforts.

 

ride comfort would change to meet the tastes of Americans.

 

of course the fusion could be better than the mondeo, if ford wants it to be.

 

there is also the reason why they have a US and ROW accord, it is size the accord is smaller over there than here. the mondeo and fusion are the same size. also We don't sell enoguh fusion to make a US only car profitable as a shared car would be.

[BORG]

Why is Ford snarking another Audi design element? Not that I object, but they seem to be Ford's only inspiration. If you want to see where Ford is going, look at Audi!

 

[BORG]

so is the fusion.

 

why isn't the fusion number 1?

 

perceived reliability

Comfort

 

I really don't think there is anything that can be done about Perceived reliability.

 

but the fusion doesn't excel in comfort. Average NVH, ride comfort, and creature comforts.

The Mondeo would do better in NVH, and creature comforts.

 

ride comfort would change to meet the tastes of Americans.

 

of course the fusion could be better than the mondeo, if ford wants it to be.

 

there is also the reason why they have a US and ROW accord, it is size the accord is smaller over there than here. the mondeo and fusion are the same size. also We don't sell enoguh fusion to make a US only car profitable as a shared car would be.

 

The Fusion is very rough around the edges and that is instantly clear when you compare it to the Accord and Camry. It looks, feels, and drives at a MUCH lower price point and the critics rank it last accordingly. The Malibu is the first domestic to really hit the nail on the head when it comes to directly matching the formula of the Domestic Japanese so it will be interesting to see what happens but the Chevy has far more potential (including plant capacity) to really challenge that type of marketshare. Ford is only interested in selling the plant to capacity on retail sales so the Fusion is not out to take over the world. Like most Fords, it sells because its a good value. In time, it may sell because it's the better choice (quality is a factor here).

[suv_guy_19]

The Fusion is very rough around the edges and that is instantly clear when you compare it to the Accord and Camry.

 

 

Ok, that's not fair. When the Fusion was released, it was rated by almost every review second only to the Accord. Every other car has been updated since its introduction and its not really fair to leave that out when you compare it. People call the Malibu the First that can compete with the Japanese. I recall many reviews saying that about the Fusion as well. The car is at the end of its current cycle. We can't blame it for that.

[BORG]

Ok, that's not fair. When the Fusion was released, it was rated by almost every review second only to the Accord. Every other car has been updated since its introduction and its not really fair to leave that out when you compare it. People call the Malibu the First that can compete with the Japanese. I recall many reviews saying that about the Fusion as well. The car is at the end of its current cycle. We can't blame it for that.

 

Not in the reviews I read which always ranked it behind Accord and Camry, and even the Hyundai Sonata from time to time! At least the Ford took off better than the Hyundai, although the Fusion barely met Ford's goals and continues to struggle. The Malibu looks to be the opposite, it is not the half-measure the Fusion was but a full fledged trump card that outscores the competition in the auto-rags. That doesn't mean it will be a hit with consumers, but it looks just about right assuming Malibu holds onto its high quality scores.

Edited November 30, 2007 by BORG