armadamaster Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) Essentially. There are plenty of options for making RWD economical enough for CAFE, including PIH like the Volt he keeps insisting will make production. The reason he's killing RWD has nothing to do with CAFE, its just a convenient excuse. BINGO! And Lutz has the business argument I just made earlier in this thread to back it up. Edited January 21, 2008 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Yes, A large performance RWD and possibly a smaller Alpha RWD as well. A possible direction for Mercury ? I was thinking Mercury could become Ford's 'sporty' brand as well. Maybe throw a slight touch of luxury in there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehaase Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 BINGO! And Lutz has the business argument I just made earlier in this thread to back it up. There are several threads at Cheers and Gears giving the reasons for abandoning most of the Zeta platform cars as internal politics and increasing influence of GM Europe within the company. CAFE is also a factor. It appears that Lutz is losing influence within the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) This is what I don't get...the new regulations dont take place till 2020 or 2025..thats over 12 years from now...whats the problem with selling car for 5-10 years and make money on it? lets it is a success. people buy thousands of RWD impallas, and then they have to turn it back into a FWD large POS again? why bother? Why create demand for a dead end car. this is different From ford's statgy of limited production RWD premium cars and trucks. GM wanted mass market. they cannot afford a mass market RWD sedan. Edited January 21, 2008 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyb82 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) lets it is a success. people buy thousands of RWD impallas, and then they have to turn it back into a FWD large POS again? why bother? Why create demand for a dead end car. this is different From ford's statgy of limited production RWD premium cars and trucks. GM wanted mass market. they cannot afford a mass market RWD sedan. What do you call making the Taurus RWD? Edited January 21, 2008 by johnnyb82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Well, at least GM will ensure that torque-steer will be a continuing feature, for your driving pleasure. I wonder if the supercharged Vette V-8 will fit . . . . and if they can find CV joints that could take it. Punch it and move over 3 lanes in the blink of an eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 What do you call making the Taurus RWD? Only RWD Taurus was in NASCAR several years ago. I don't think it's going to happen for the production version....ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyb82 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Only RWD Taurus was in NASCAR several years ago. I don't think it's going to happen for the production version....ever. It doesn't make sense to me at all, but Blue II keeps on insisting this will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Well the new Taurus sure is a heavy volume car.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 This quote from Lutz suggests he believes that the marketplace does not drive product decisions, that GM can 'stimulate demand' for certain vehicles. Well, Jim Farley just said the same thing. A very interesting interview with Farley in this week's Automotive News where he said that Ford must persuade customers to consider smaller cars. Another interesting interview was with Chrysler's Jim Press who said the "hemi is not the engine of Chrysler's future." I don't think we fully realize how the new CAFE standards will change U.S. vehicles over the next 10+ years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I think Lutz knows he can still sell a crap-load of FWD Impalas and Grand Prixs and that a move to RWD won't result in a tremendous amount of incrememtnal sales. And every gas hungry RWD Impala is one less profit heavy pickup they can sell under the new CAFE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyb82 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Well the new Taurus sure is a heavy volume car.. Ford is really trying hard to make it one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyb82 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I think Lutz knows he can still sell a crap-load of FWD Impalas and Grand Prixs and that a move to RWD won't result in a tremendous amount of incrememtnal sales. And every gas hungry RWD Impala is one less profit heavy pickup they can sell under the new CAFE Why can't Ford sell its FWD boat of a Taurus in similar volumes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Very telling quote from Lutz. This is why I don't think he's good for companies. "Stimulate Demand" As in, "we tell customers what they want." As in, "how GM got screwed up in the first place." This quote from Lutz suggests he believes that the marketplace does not drive product decisions, that GM can 'stimulate demand' for certain vehicles. That attitude in the hands of someone without Lutz's instincts, is dangerous. Heck that attitude in the hands of Lutz himself is sometimes dangerous (Merkur, "You can have too much quality", etc.) And this is why I call him "Lutz the Putz" What a moron... Now I'm kinda glad I don't buy a GM car right now. The biggest mistake they made wasn't the 80's downsizing. It was getting out of the RWD business in 1996 is what did it for me. Sorry... GM cars are not on my list. Trucks? Maybe. Cars.... NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eel Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Pathetic, this is why I completely dispise GM. Go to hell you ballless faggots. Really, there is no one to blame but our Congress. Once you have government dictating what a free enterprise company can produce without regards to the consumer's desires, this is what you get. We all, I would think, want the freedom of choice in our vehicles. But, that is going away thanks to Congress and a like-minded President Bush. In the long-term, I think hydrogen fueled Internal Compustion Engines would be the way to go, but in the short term we need to produce our own oil products. This means drilling in areas that may now be off limits. However, with the small footprint of drilling technology that is much less of a problem than it used to be. In the really long-term, something else may be a viable option, but we need to have something that allows a variety of vehicles to be sold and used. Unless we are willing to use our resources as needed, we have no choice other than to pay huge sums to nations that are filled with people that want to destroy us and our way of life. To me, this is a no-brainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It doesn't make sense to me at all, but Blue II keeps on insisting this will happen. At the risk of turning this into a "D3 vs Panther" argument, I believe that both the FWD D3 Taurus and the Panthers will be replaced by a GRWD-based large sedan. Perhaps Blue II is alluding to it carrying the Taurus name instead of Crown Victoria. This is all speculation on my part of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinb120 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) I don't get all the resentment, it makes sense to me. The Malibu FWD is the bread and buttter sedan for Chevy with the RWD Camaro the 'fun' one. And the GM Pontiac G8 is the 'excitement' car instead of so many overlapping vehicles, not to mention Cadillac. The segment is somewhat small, it would be akin to Ford makinig another CUV on the CX7 from Mazda(or chevy getting a version of the solice). Being that the profits are good from any division, some vehicles can be profitable without haveing a version in every single nameplate. And what is that asshat saying more GM cars will be pulled by the front wheels? In a year they are adding two(G8 and Camaro) and just added the rwd roadsters just a couple back...As of late, GM has done a much better job of mixing up the brand identity between makes better then ever before. There is no Cadillac Cimmeron, and Saturn has a bevy of new cars that don't look anything like the other brands, even the Sky, which is low production vehicle got a full exterior re-do rather then a re-badge. I think they are doing a pretty good job. Edited January 21, 2008 by kevinb120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Ford is really trying hard to make it one. I wish that were true. Trying hard would have to include advertising the car. I haven't seen anything from Ford on the Taurus or Taurus X lately. Just local dealer network ads. Ford does advertise the Focus, Edge, Fusion anf F-series. Why no Taurus ads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinb120 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) It just gathered up a bunch of good reviews, including CR raves, they should push hard this spring with all the media backing now. Another hole in the advertizing is no 'most-reliable' remarks for the Edge and Fusion. Honda claims it all the time with less evidence. Edited January 21, 2008 by kevinb120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I don't think we fully realize how the new CAFE standards will change U.S. vehicles over the next 10+ years. I agree completely - I have a feeling that everyone tore up the next few years of product plans when the new CAFE law was approved (especially GM). I really think Ford might have a leg up, because they were already concentrating on the B segment entry, and had already taken the decision to pursue the EcoBoost approach. It would be a very interesting time to be a fly on the wall during product development meetings at Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixt9coug Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Im lazy and dont feel like looking it up, but with the topic of FE and RWD vs FWD (acronym soup eh?) what do the Solstice and Sky get as far as EPA ratings? how does that compare to a comprable FWD vehicle being that its still a small 'high output' NA 4 banger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Im lazy and dont feel like looking it up, but with the topic of FE and RWD vs FWD (acronym soup eh?) what do the Solstice and Sky get as far as EPA ratings? how does that compare to a comprable FWD vehicle being that its still a small 'high output' NA 4 banger? From the Pontiac web site: ECOTEC® 2.4L VVT DOHC (manual): 19/25 (city/highway mpg) ECOTEC® 2.4L VVT DOHC (automatic): 19/24 (city/highway mpg) Turbo ECOTEC® 2.0L VVT DOHC (manual): 19/28 (city/highway mpg) Turbo ECOTEC® 2.0L VVT DOHC (automatic): 19/26 (city/highway mpg) Sky numbers are identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 For further comparison, Mazda MX-5 Miata numbers are: 5MT 22/27 6MT 21/28 AT 20/27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) Well, Jim Farley just said the same thing. A very interesting interview with Farley in this week's Automotive News where he said that Ford must persuade customers to consider smaller cars. What an odd thing to say... Due to the crappiness of the whole year, C car volume was, I believe, down over last year, but I believe its share of the overall market was up. Edited January 21, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehaase Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I don't think we fully realize how the new CAFE standards will change U.S. vehicles over the next 10+ years. Well, I'm almost 44 and grew up or had my early adulthood during the era of the first CAFE, so I think I realize how cars will change. I remember the Escort and Tempo being Ford's big sellers in 1984 and 1985, and expect to see the Verve and Focus being Ford's biggest volume cars in a few years, with anything larger being hybrid powered and very expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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