battyr Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/06/fo...-2009.html#more More details on 2009 Escape Hybrid system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Of course reading through the comments some moron made mention of Toyota's patents that Ford 'uses'. So tired of that drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT40 2 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 How fast could you go on electric only with the 08 model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Of course reading through the comments some moron made mention of Toyota's patents that Ford 'uses'. So tired of that drivel. Is it Ford's exclusive design? Or???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Is it Ford's exclusive design? Or???? Yes it is, it always was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danglin Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 How fast could you go on electric only with the 08 model? I think it was 30MPH. :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 It's actually 25MPH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Is it Ford's exclusive design? Or???? I think that's been established, over and over and over again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 That's odd, Why did my 08FEH come with this sticker then?? hint: The CVT is and has always been made by Aisin, which is partially owned by Toyota... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 That's odd, Why did my 08FEH come with this sticker then?? hint: The CVT is and has always been made by Aisin, which is partially owned by Toyota... And your point is? The hybrid system was very much developed by Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 (edited) And your point is? The hybrid system was very much developed by Ford. The transmission is developed and manufactured by Aisin, a key supplier to Toyota. Aisin's unwillingness to ramp up supply has capped the production rate of Ford Hybrids. Ford had to buy licenses from Toyota for some parts of the technology (IIRC, battery charging). Had lunch with one of the Hybrid guys on Friday. He characterized the '09 Escape as Gen 1.5 and the upcoming Fusion Hybrid as a full Gen 2.0. The Fusion uses EPS from a different vendor and a few other tweaks. He also said there is a skunk works project with a different transmission supplier still on going but no target date. Edited June 30, 2008 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Yes it is, it always was. My point is, you're misinformed (wrong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 My point is, you're misinformed (wrong) Sorry, but I'm also very confused over your post. Are you trying to say that some of the Escape's foreign content is somehow coming from Toyota? I don't understand. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting. This subject of patents has been beaten to death. The Escape system was developed entirely independently by Ford, period. Near the end of the development program, Ford did a scan of the technology and determined that there was one area where there could be overlap in Ford's and Toyota's technical approach. They met with Toyota, and a couple of Ford engine patents were traded for Toyota patents. It was a one-time deal and no ongoing payments are involved. This situation is nothing like laggard Nissan who had to buy the Toyota system. This is a very, very common practice among auto manufacturers. How many times have you heard about nasty patent infringement cases in this industry between manufacturers? (Answer: none) I had a casual conversation with a GM patent guy the other day, and he mentioned how he had just had a series of "trade-em" meetings with Ford on a variety of patents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue II Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 My point is, you're misinformed (wrong) Yota is in fact using Ford patents. What do you think of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 (edited) My point is, you're misinformed (wrong) Ford also licensed Toyota hybrids patents after its engineers realized that the system Ford had developed had features similar to ones patented by Toyota. (Honda developed a different hybrid system.) The two automakers struck an accord last year that included an exchange of patents: Toyota gave Ford license to use some of its hybrid technology, and Ford gave the Japanese automaker diesel and direct-injection engine technology. :reading: Source More: The 20 patents are primarily related to controls. Susan Krusal, Ford's spokeswoman for trucks and SUVs, said the licensing agreement allows Ford to market its own hybrid control system, which shares some similarities with the Toyota system. As part of the agreement, Toyota licensed technologies for nitrogen oxide emissions control, variable valve timing, and direct injection spark ignition from Ford. Source Edited June 28, 2008 by TomServo92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted June 28, 2008 Author Share Posted June 28, 2008 The transmission is developed and manufactured by Aisin, a keep supplier to Toyota. Aisin's unwillingness to ramp up supply has capped the production rate of Ford Hybrids. Ford had to buy licenses from Toyota for some parts of the technology (IIRC, battery charging). Had lunch with one of the Hybrid guys on Friday. He characterized the '09 Escape as Gen 1.5 and the upcoming Fusion Hybrid as a full Gen 2.0. The Fusion uses EPS from a different vendor and a few other tweaks. He also said there is a skunk works project with a different transmission supplier still on going but no target date. This is what I wanted to hear. Any other secrets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 :reading: Source More: Source Please look at the part content placard placed on my 08FEH by FORD... It clearly says the transmission is BOUGHT from JAPAN... What part of that is confusing?? You can qoute all you want, call it designed by whoever you want... They buy the CVT from AISIN a TOYOTA company.... what part of that is confusing??? The CVT is SOLD to FORD by AISIN...JAPANESE COMPANY OWNED IN PART BY TOYOTA CONFIRMED by FORD on their OWN DISCLOSURE TAG, which is affixed to EVERY VEHICLE THEY SELL... End of debate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Please look at the part content placard placed on my 08FEH by FORD... It clearly says the transmission is BOUGHT from JAPAN... What part of that is confusing?? You can qoute all you want, call it designed by whoever you want... They buy the CVT from AISIN a TOYOTA company.... what part of that is confusing??? The CVT is SOLD to FORD by AISIN...JAPANESE COMPANY OWNED IN PART BY TOYOTA CONFIRMED by FORD on their OWN DISCLOSURE TAG, which is affixed to EVERY VEHICLE THEY SELL... End of debate... YEah, they bought the transmission from Japan, but they designed and developed the hybrid system on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Please look at the part content placard placed on my 08FEH by FORD... It clearly says the transmission is BOUGHT from JAPAN... What part of that is confusing?? You can qoute all you want, call it designed by whoever you want... They buy the CVT from AISIN a TOYOTA company.... what part of that is confusing??? The CVT is SOLD to FORD by AISIN...JAPANESE COMPANY OWNED IN PART BY TOYOTA CONFIRMED by FORD on their OWN DISCLOSURE TAG, which is affixed to EVERY VEHICLE THEY SELL... End of debate... The CVT isn't the only part that makes a hybrid a hybrid. There is also the batteries, electric motor, special brakes, along with many other unique items. Just because the cvt is bought from japan (AISIN which has some toyota ownership) doesn't make the overall vehicle a Toyota product. It would be like saying my car is japanese engineered just because my tires came from japan or something stupid like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 (edited) Please look at the part content placard placed on my 08FEH by FORD... It clearly says the transmission is BOUGHT from JAPAN... What part of that is confusing?? You can qoute all you want, call it designed by whoever you want... They buy the CVT from AISIN a TOYOTA company.... what part of that is confusing??? The CVT is SOLD to FORD by AISIN...JAPANESE COMPANY OWNED IN PART BY TOYOTA CONFIRMED by FORD on their OWN DISCLOSURE TAG, which is affixed to EVERY VEHICLE THEY SELL... End of debate... What does that have to do with the Ford/Toyota hybrid patent swap? Nothing, that's what. Ford buys Aisin transmissions for non-hybrid products as well. Does that make them Toyota products as well? No, it does not. NOW, it's the end of the debate. Edited June 28, 2008 by TomServo92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 The CVT isn't the only part that makes a hybrid a hybrid. There is also the batteries, electric motor, special brakes, along with many other unique items. That's correct. Anyone that believes that the CVT is all that makes it a hybrid, is the one misinformed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyalbutconcerned Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Sorry, but I'm also very confused over your post. Are you trying to say that some of the Escape's foreign content is somehow coming from Toyota? I don't understand. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting. This subject of patents has been beaten to death. The Escape system was developed entirely independently by Ford, period. Near the end of the development program, Ford did a scan of the technology and determined that there was one area where there could be overlap in Ford's and Toyota's technical approach. They met with Toyota, and a couple of Ford engine patents were traded for Toyota patents. It was a one-time deal and no ongoing payments are involved. This situation is nothing like laggard Nissan who had to buy the Toyota system. This is a very, very common practice among auto manufacturers. How many times have you heard about nasty patent infringement cases in this industry between manufacturers? (Answer: none) I had a casual conversation with a GM patent guy the other day, and he mentioned how he had just had a series of "trade-em" meetings with Ford on a variety of patents. YOU NAILED THE ANSWER! Most of the posters just like some in the media just can't seem to understand this. Engineers and Scientists can work on solutions independently and have overlap. It is just a matter who gets there first and who protects it first. I get frustrated seeing this argument all the time by people who just lack knowledge about these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theVengineguy Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 This hybrid is a waste of money. The consumer would be better served just buying a 2009 Escape 2.5L with either a 6 speed auto, or 5 speed manual if they want fuel economy. The atkinson cycle is a waste of time. In theory, given the drop in torque compared to the otto cycle, you still need to keep the engine at a higher RPM to get the same acceleration performance. And if you are on highway, the electric motor is limited anyways. Not forgetting the extra weight you add with a battery pack, motors, high voltage wiring, etc. For 4 mpg extra, keep it. I will pocket the $12K and use it to buy more gas for this "theoretical" 4 mpg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 This hybrid is a waste of money. The consumer would be better served just buying a 2009 Escape 2.5L with either a 6 speed auto, or 5 speed manual if they want fuel economy. The atkinson cycle is a waste of time. In theory, given the drop in torque compared to the otto cycle, you still need to keep the engine at a higher RPM to get the same acceleration performance. And if you are on highway, the electric motor is limited anyways. Not forgetting the extra weight you add with a battery pack, motors, high voltage wiring, etc. For 4 mpg extra, keep it. I will pocket the $12K and use it to buy more gas for this "theoretical" 4 mpg. I don't understand your comment. The best ratings for the gas Escape are 22 city and 28 highway with the 5 speed manual (FWD). The FWD hybrid is rated at 34 city and 30 highway. That is considerably more than 4 mpg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08FEH Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Don't put words in my mouth (post).... I never said that the CVT makes the hybrid, nor that Ford didn't have a play in the design. How did we get from a discussion about the CVT to the whole truck and what makes a hybrid? You may read things that are incorrect and irritate you... Two incorrect things I read ALL the time are: The Escape Hybrid is all Ford (wrong) The Escape Hybrid has no Toyota technology in it (wrong) THAT was the purpose of my posts.... Nice recovery attempts however.. A little bit on the attack side tho.. I AM a supporter of our country and I do buy American made products for a reason, but like you I'm sure, I do give credit where it is due and I detest when others post information that they have not researched to any degree...(like there is no Toyota technology in the Escape Hybrid)... 08FEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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