"An unfair assault on 'workers'"

[RangerM]

People who keep screaming for nationalized health care seem to forget one thing: SOMEONE is paying for it ... and when you nationalize health care, that means YOU are, through taxes.

 

Also don't forget that someone has to (be willing to) PROVIDE it, at the government-mandated price.

Edited December 27, 2008 by RangerM

[LSFan00]

Here's a post from a college sports board I frequent (on rivals.com). NO, I didn't make it.

 

I am thinking of not buying any American made cars to try and force them into bankruotcy faster. Most "foreign" cars are made in the US anyway. GM's financing arm has been declared a "bank" and can get some of the free $700 billion ripped off from tax payers!! This is payback from the over $400 million the unions spent on elections in 2008. Why should we pay for any of that crap?

 

This is going to hit America hard when all this money comes due!! Why should we the people carry a corrupt union run gangster company afloat with our hard earned money. America is turning into France!!

 

Thats it, I am not buying another American made car until after they are forced to restructure and make a car I am interested in buying.

 

 

Image is everything.

[suv_guy_19]

It doesn't surprise me. Theire are ignorant people on pretty much every forum on the internet.

[Surgen]

OK. I know this is skewed and not all work is in Detroit but...

 

Housing in Detroit costs what? $10k? So if you want a really nice house its what? $50k, $100k? $28 an hour in the most depressed economy in the US? Not a bad deal. Like $150k a year in LA.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Housing isn't that cheap outside of the slums. You cannot get a "nice" starter house in a reasonable neighbourhood for that cheap.

[MichiganTruck_Mafia]

Housing in Detroit costs what? $10k? So if you want a really nice house its what? $50k, $100k? $28 an hour in the most depressed economy in the US? Not a bad deal. Like $150k a year in LA.

 

 

Sure, if you want to live in a war zone.

[Ralph Greene]

Like it or not, we already have nationalized healthcare. No one gets turned away from hospitals. We all pay as a society, thru higher insurance premiums, higher cash payments, higher local subsidities to health care, etc. What would be the difference if these costs came out in the open? The same number of people would get care as now. The country has decided to not let sick people die in the streets, so we all pay now for this philosophy.

 

If Obama brings forth a formal program of national healthcare, I don't see how it's costs would be any different to society than the present system costs.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[Bored of Pisteon]

The vitriol against the middle class here is amazing.

 

Divide and conquer, I suppose...

 

Middle class? Maybe you should read one of my quotes in my signature and you can go figure out the rest of the game on your own.

[Extreme4x4]

Like it or not, we already have nationalized healthcare. No one gets turned away from hospitals. We all pay as a society, thru higher insurance premiums, higher cash payments, higher local subsidities to health care, etc. What would be the difference if these costs came out in the open? The same number of people would get care as now. The country has decided to not let sick people die in the streets, so we all pay now for this philosophy.

 

If Obama brings forth a formal program of national healthcare, I don't see how it's costs would be any different to society than the present system costs.

 

The big difference in cost, is only two words.

 

Government run.

 

Add those two words to pretty much anything, and you might as well 1.5 to 2x the cost. You have layer upon layer of beaurocracy, rules, regulations................... and multitudes of employees who do next to nothing.

 

Frankly, the government makes the UAW appear to be a well oiled, and incredibly efficient, machine.

[LSFan00]

Here's a solution that will be brilliantly executed, when the next hundred billion or so are due to the D3 in June. I can see it, right when gas prices shoot back up to 3-4 bucks/gallon on their own.

 

As it stands, TARP funds that were initially slated for various banks are to be used for Detroit, but would revenue from an increased gas tax be better?

[jpd80]

The big difference in cost, is only two words.

 

Government run.

 

Add those two words to pretty much anything, and you might as well 1.5 to 2x the cost. You have layer upon layer of beaurocracy, rules, regulations................... and multitudes of employees who do next to nothing.

 

Frankly, the government makes the UAW appear to be a well oiled, and incredibly efficient, machine.

Headspin time,

Australia and Canada both have National health funds that work well, Australia has the option of

private health funds for those wanting immediate elective treatments.

 

National pension plan.

Australia commenced compulsory national superannuation scheme over 20 years ago. Every taxpayer has a superannuation plan and it is the 4th largest investment pool of money in the world. Instead of tax

cuts being wasted in CPI increases, these were converted to a tax payers superannuation contributions.

Australia is the only nation in the OECD that has such a scheme which is fully funded and out of the hands of employers and governments.

[suv_guy_19]

Australia is the only nation in the OECD that has such a scheme which is fully funded and out of the hands of employers and governments.

 

Apparently ours is fully funded, but it is in the hands of the government (which I really don't mind).

 

In the health part of things, each province is different. Some have great systems, some not so good. You can now buy wait time insurance so you don't have to wait long for things, though in my province, it would be useless as the wait is never very long. In Quebec or New Brunswick though, it would be something that you might want to look into.

 

Anyway.

Edited December 28, 2008 by suv_guy_19

[LSFan00]

More rational analysis which will likely be rejected entirely by this board (and I'll be called obscenities and the poor 'workers' compared to Holocaust victims). This type of discussion is verboten on BON;

 

The three domestic automakers employ 150,000 factory workers in the U.S. That’s about 30 to 36 thousand more than really needed. Current wage rates and benefits, including pension costs for all current and future retirees, add $1600 to the manufacturing cost of each vehicle. Those are facts, and core problems.

 

While the UAW and the companies often spin other data, here are more facts for you. The average hourly rate for Big Three factory workers is $28. Add $10 for benefits, that’s $38 per hour. But, that is for current workers only. When current and future retirement and benefit costs for all personnel are necessarily included, the hourly labor rate jumps dramatically. The specific rates, as reported by Forbes are – “Ford: $70.51, GM: $73.26, and Chrysler: $75.86. Compare that with the total labor costs of Toyota, Honda, and Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00”. You can see the core cost problem affecting the viability of the Big Three domestic automakers.

 

The Bush plan is right in calling for UAW wages to be brought in line with competitive pay of other workers at US auto plants, along with more flexible work rules; but, wrong to delay needed adjustments to December 31, 2009.

 

In addition, the UAW so-called ‘Job Bank’ must be eliminated immediately. The Job Bank pays idle workers, in the aggregate, 95% of their hourly rate for doing nothing. It is yet another example of how weak management permitted ice to buildup on the wings of their businesses. Left in place, such inappropriate costs freeze and crash the enterprise. It is not acceptable to give either union or company officials a pass on this or any other instance of dastardly deal-making.

 

Despite these realities, UAW president Ron Gettelfinger continues to stall progress, saying he wants incoming President Barack Obama to remove what he calls “these unfair conditions, singling out workers”. Apparently, Gettelfinger is betting he can get Obama to support the continuing UAW intransigence - which remains problem #1 for the automakers - as payback for union support in the election. Then, after the inauguration, Gettelfinger can work the democrat majority in Congress to take more money from cash-strapped taxpayers and willfully pour it down the sink hole.

 

If Obama folds to this union pressure, so will the domestic auto industry. Instead, without further delay, President-elect Obama should bluntly, and publicly, tell Gettelfinger to accept the realities of the Bush bailout provisions already on the table, to publicly accept them by New Years Eve; or, alternatively, step aside and start the New Year as a former UAW president.

 

Link.

[syrtran]

More rational analysis which will likely be rejected entirely by this board (and I'll be called obscenities and the poor 'workers' compared to Holocaust victims). This type of discussion is verboten on BON;

 

 

 

Link.

You (and your links) seem to keep ignoring the fact that the problems for GM and Chrysler aren't due to labor costs, as these have been planned for since years. Their problems stem from the fact that nobody is buying cars. The entire industry is depressed some 20 - 30 percent. The only thing keeping Toyota and Honda afloat is their government support back in Japan, and Nissan their French connection.

 

Even BMW and Mercedes are scaling back future plans, and they both still have positive cash flow.

[nvsked]

Yep, and then and only then will these people find out what they are really worth. 99 percent will find out that they are not worth what they are getting paid now and those 28 dollar an hour jobs are hard to find with all the benifits. The tax payers dont owe a damn thing to these people in my mind. Nor do they owe the execs either.

 

Okay you're the answer person.... Who is worth what? Who falls into the category of "These People" personally I prefer the expression "Those People" you know past tense, like you're doing away with U.S.

[RangerM]

Okay you're the answer person.... Who is worth what? Who falls into the category of "These People" personally I prefer the expression "Those People" you know past tense, like you're doing away with U.S.

 

In my business, when asked for a raise by a worker, I must ask myself one question, "Could I replace this person with the wage he earns now, or would it require the same money (or more) than what is being requested"?

 

That is how you define what a person is worth to a company.

[Versa-Tech]

OMG, I am so sick of hearing about this shit.

 

Sometimes, I wish the UAW would just SHUT THE F*CK UP!

[nvsked]

OMG, I am so sick of hearing about this shit.

 

Sometimes, I wish the UAW would just SHUT THE F*CK UP!

 

Okay you start, and we will all follow your lead.

[nvsked]

Like it or not, we already have nationalized healthcare. No one gets turned away from hospitals. We all pay as a society, thru higher insurance premiums, higher cash payments, higher local subsidities to health care, etc. What would be the difference if these costs came out in the open? The same number of people would get care as now. The country has decided to not let sick people die in the streets, so we all pay now for this philosophy.

 

If Obama brings forth a formal program of national healthcare, I don't see how it's costs would be any different to society than the present system costs.

 

Obviously you've never had a love one die, because of the lack of health insurance. You need to get your head out of your ass and come to the surface with real people. Did you read that information in some insurance company brochure.

[Blue Oval Guide]

what a cunt you are. in every thread on here. as a UAW member, i'd rather see this ship sink, than know we bent over and "took" whatever they decided was fair and on par with "the wages of the world today". legacy costs are NOT burdens. they are fathers and grandfathers. i'd rather be part of a union that stood up and said NO-we wont be part of this race to the bottom, than cower and say yes-sir, please can i have a few crumbs-i'll do anything you tell me-as long as i can still toil for you. F&*K that- i'm a man whose willing to chuck it all knowing the rest of my life, i didnt budge on the issues i know are right. i'm not a bitch-like you.

I know it's a very emotional time - I live in MI too - but let's refrain from the language, PLEASE!

[nvsked]

Bush has certainly been out of control with his spending habits since the day he set foot in the office, but I'm not sure how that is relevant. A national health care plan would reduce the burden on the automakers while squarely putting the burden back on the people who RECEIVE the health care right now. Why do people not understand this? Do you really think the UAW folks are going to be happy to have to PAY for their healthcare through a taxed, nationalized plan? I for one don't think so.

 

People who keep screaming for nationalized health care seem to forget one thing: SOMEONE is paying for it ... and when you nationalize health care, that means YOU are, through taxes.

 

I'm not sure who forgot that the government's money is OURS ... ?

 

 

I'm sorry for missing this post until now. If we went to a single payer system similar to what congress has, we could reduce health care cost from 33% to 40% depending on who's opinion you follow, and all we have to do is take the profit out of health insurance. Of course US Health, Cigna etc will not be happy... selling health insurance is very profitable. The problem is insurance companies don't provide health care, all they do is shuffle paper.

 

 

 

"In my business, when asked for a raise by a worker, I must ask myself one question, "Could I replace this person with the wage he earns now, or would it require the same money (or more) than what is being requested"?

 

That is how you define what a person is worth to a company."

 

The comment above shows you obviously no experience dealing with Ford bureaucracy where cost saving ideas die a lonely death, based on the approval chain.

[macattak1]

Housing isn't that cheap outside of the slums. You cannot get a "nice" starter house in a reasonable neighbourhood for that cheap.

 

I know the $10k is a crack house. That is why I put the $50k to $100k. Are you saying that $100k will not buy you a nice house in Det? It will where I live and I would think that it would there as well.

 

Peace and Blessings

[RangerM]

"In my business, when asked for a raise by a worker, I must ask myself one question, "Could I replace this person with the wage he earns now, or would it require the same money (or more) than what is being requested"?

 

That is how you define what a person is worth to a company."

 

The comment above shows you obviously no experience dealing with Ford bureaucracy where cost saving ideas die a lonely death, based on the approval chain.

 

I'm sure you are correct, but it's only indicative of a systemic problem within a large company. I don't work for a large company (anymore).

 

I used to work for DuPont where (at the time) the rules dictated that I had to get two signatures (from two geographic locations) to purchase $10 worth of office supplies. I did it once, then afterward would just spend the money out of my own pocket just to avoid wasting several hours.

 

I hate waste and inefficiency. It goes against my conservative nature.

[ANTAUS]

My community decided to landscape the rim/shore of a lake, that no one can see because the road sitting beside it is 10 feet above. They planted Cypress trees because they tend to do well at the shores of lakes, no need to water. But bureaucracy stated they needed to be irrigated. The city spent more on irrigation installing and materials, than the actual trees itself. Then 6 months later they had to be ripped out because the road above was being widened. Amazing.

 

We usually hold a "best decorated home for the holiday" competition each Xmas. It was killed this year...Said employee cuts, not enough city staff time. I asked about what it required, and to put it plain I ended it with "It doesn't take weeks or days to load up 7 people in a minivan and drive around and VOTE on the homes in ONE NIGHT, cut the BS!". So as head of my non-for profit, we just absorbed that project. I guess they couldnt spend for a paltry few hours to take care of the issue. Then I received the "books" on what the rules are to this contest and 90% is just red tape BS. So I narrowed everything down to 3 pages and sent it back to the city, with the cover "Cut the BS!"... It got approved...well with out the BS part....

[nvsked]

My community decided to landscape the rim/shore of a lake, that no one can see because the road sitting beside it is 10 feet above. They planted Cypress trees because they tend to do well at the shores of lakes, no need to water. But bureaucracy stated they needed to be irrigated. The city spent more on irrigation installing and materials, than the actual trees itself. Then 6 months later they had to be ripped out because the road above was being widened. Amazing.

 

We usually hold a "best decorated home for the holiday" competition each Xmas. It was killed this year...Said employee cuts, not enough city staff time. I asked about what it required, and to put it plain I ended it with "It doesn't take weeks or days to load up 7 people in a minivan and drive around and VOTE on the homes in ONE NIGHT, cut the BS!". So as head of my non-for profit, we just absorbed that project. I guess they couldnt spend for a paltry few hours to take care of the issue. Then I received the "books" on what the rules are to this contest and 90% is just red tape BS. So I narrowed everything down to 3 pages and sent it back to the city, with the cover "Cut the BS!"... It got approved...well with out the BS part....

 

Now you know what Mulally and Gettelfinger have to deal with, multiply it by 100,000 and you have Washington D.C.

 

Only 2 signatures for a P.O. Ford requires at least 7, more depending on dollar amount

[grbeck]

I'm sorry for missing this post until now. If we went to a single payer system similar to what congress has, we could reduce health care cost from 33% to 40% depending on who's opinion you follow, and all we have to do is take the profit out of health insurance. Of course US Health, Cigna etc will not be happy... selling health insurance is very profitable. The problem is insurance companies don't provide health care, all they do is shuffle paper.

 

We already have nationalized care for the elderly. It's called Medicare, and note that the UAW isn't exactly rushing to have retired UAW workers shifted to Medicare, even though this would save a huge amount of money for the companies. Why? Because the benefits provided by Medicare aren't nearly as generous as those provided by the current UAW-negotiated plan. So the UAW's call for nationalized health care is more than a little disingenuous.

 

Nationalized plans cost less because they are less generous with their coverage. People think that a nationalized plan will be just like their current plan.

 

Imagine that a company provides every employee with a Mercedes S-Class. The government decides that everyone should get a free car. But, given cost concerns, it won't be a Mercedes S-Class. It will be a Hyundai Accent.

 

That's great for people who don't have a car. But it's not so good for those who currently enjoy a free Mercedes S-Class.

 

This is what would happen under a nationalized health care plan to those with UAW-like plans.

 

Unless, of course, the UAW then decides that Ford, GM and Chrysler would have to fill the gap between the government plan and the current health care plan. Which means that the cost disadvantage remains, only on a smaller scale.