How much will Ford gain from Toyota's pain?

[silvrsvt]

Well -when they put that new tranny and rear end in the Ford Explorer (2001 or 2002?), there were thousands of problems, but your right-not 100% of the time. BTW-if it happens to the vehicle you own, it doesn't matter, it's one too many!

 

Since we are using generalities here...there was a huge difference from the 02 Explorer to the 03 Explorer with the amount of Transmission problems on them..I ran across a website and the difference was something like a difference of 75% difference from 02 to 03 Models.

 

In all seriousness...if the Explorer was that FUCKED up during its production run, it wouldn't have sold as many as it did over the years. My parents had an 02 EB Explorer that they loved till the infamous transmission and rear end problems cropped up on it. We had a couple stinker Ford products, but they seem to run in phases, since our post 06+ vechicles have been flawless, where our 02-05 vehicles where horrible!

 

The two worse cars my parents owned where a 89 Taurus Wagon(13 recalls and the incredible self destructing transmission every time 60K you put on it) and the 02 Explorer they had...but that only shit one transmission after 60K and the rear on it. I had a horrible 02 SVT Focus that ran like shit and lost its clutch at 50K miles and my sister had a 02 Cougar that ate front end racks on it.

[Kev-Mo]

"And I wouldn't trade my Ford Explorer for all the Toyotas in Tokyo! I have never owned a foreign brand car in 34 years, and I have never owned a bad car so I am not buying the "typical American junk" thing. That is such an overused and overblown perception!"

 

Kevmo, I would be very interested in a list of cars you have owned over the last 34 years. You have been either very lucky or have not purchased models that were made by the American car manufacturers that were "junk".

 

For Example, many of the problems associated with my Ford Explorer were WELL KNOWN and WIDE SPREAD.

 

I bought the vehicle in good faith....but frankly it wasn't a good product overall.

 

How have you been so lucky?

 

 

I have not been lucky, the whole perception is just overblown!

 

Let's see-

1968 Fort Torino GT Fastback - used - my first car

1979 Ford F-150 4x4 Short Bed - new - probably the most troublesome of all my vehicles, but not too bad - sold at about 90k miles

1983 Ford EXP - (2 seat Escort) - new- got a real job and had to commute - sold at about 80k miles - OK car but I like trucks.

1986 Ford Ranger STX 4x4 - new - 2.9L Fuel Injected V6- 5sp manual. At the time - By far the best and most powerful compact truck on the market. Ran circles around the Toyota rust bucket pickups of the time - sold at 150k miles

1992 Ford F150 - 4x4 Reg Cab Short Bed - new - 4.9 I6, 5 speed manual - Best Truck ever - Sold at 145K miles. I know the guy I sold it to and he still drives it!

1998 Ford Explorer - new - still my daily driver - 110 k miles - very well maintained. Pulled boat, hauled just about everything, lives life as Colorado ski vehicle running up and down the mountains in all kinds of weather. Original 5R55 Trans still shifting smooth with Amsoil AFT. Could challenge the '92 as the best truck ever, but we need to see...

1997 Ford F-150 4x4 Short Bed Flareside Reg Cab - used - bought as a toy - 4.6 Mod V8 with 5 speed manual. Not as well maintained by previous owner as my Explorer. Sold at 110k miles. Would probably still have it but the family grew.

2006 BMW X3 - Bought for the wide and kid - I hate it - I wanted an Edge or current gen Explorer. Girls like the import though.

 

The secret is, I have a good INDEPENDENT mechanic. He maintains local fleets, including police, etc. He knows Fords very well. When he fixes something he generally upgrades the parts so they don't fail again. Like -using Amsiol synthetic ATF - how many people have you ever heard complaining about the 5R55 Trans? Chances are they didn't have an exceptional quality fluid in and it contributed to the failure. My mechanic tells me there is no "widespread "or "well known" problem with any of my Fords that can't be fixed quickly and simply with and upgraded part.

 

Hope you are enjoying the "sitting on the floor' seating in your 4Runner, and the ultra cramped back seat that doesn't fold flat, and the spare tire that just doesn't quite fit under the rear of the car, and the lousy gas mileage...etc.

[RichardJensen]

My dad had a '68 Torino GT.

[Kev-Mo]

Well -when they put that new tranny and rear end in the Ford Explorer (2001 or 2002?), there were thousands of problems, but your right-not 100% of the time. BTW-if it happens to the vehicle you own, it doesn't matter, it's one too many!

 

 

You guys need to stop having your stuff fixed by dealers, and find a good INDEPENDENT mechanic who will actually the problems for good.

[OAC_Sparky]

2006 BMW X3 - Bought for the wide and kid - I hate it

Better fix your typo...if she sees it you'll be on the couch for a month.

Edited February 3, 2010 by OAC_Sparky

[LoveTaurus]

In Toyota's recent recalls, there were tons of news out there. I read many of them. If there were comment spaces at the bottom, I read them too. Most of the comments, even under the terrible recall news, were bashing Detroit 3 but praising and supporting the Japanese companies. Very ignorant! But Ford still have a long way to go...

[grbeck]

I have not been lucky, the whole perception is just overblown!

 

Let's see-

1968 Fort Torino GT Fastback - used - my first car

1979 Ford F-150 4x4 Short Bed - new - probably the most troublesome of all my vehicles, but not too bad - sold at about 90k miles

1983 Ford EXP - (2 seat Escort) - new- got a real job and had to commute - sold at about 80k miles - OK car but I like trucks.

1986 Ford Ranger STX 4x4 - new - 2.9L Fuel Injected V6- 5sp manual. At the time - By far the best and most powerful compact truck on the market. Ran circles around the Toyota rust bucket pickups of the time - sold at 150k miles

1992 Ford F150 - 4x4 Reg Cab Short Bed - new - 4.9 I6, 5 speed manual - Best Truck ever - Sold at 145K miles. I know the guy I sold it to and he still drives it!

1998 Ford Explorer - new - still my daily driver - 110 k miles - very well maintained. Pulled boat, hauled just about everything, lives life as Colorado ski vehicle running up and down the mountains in all kinds of weather. Original 5R55 Trans still shifting smooth with Amsoil AFT. Could challenge the '92 as the best truck ever, but we need to see...

1997 Ford F-150 4x4 Short Bed Flareside Reg Cab - used - bought as a toy - 4.6 Mod V8 with 5 speed manual. Not as well maintained by previous owner as my Explorer. Sold at 110k miles. Would probably still have it but the family grew.

2006 BMW X3 - Bought for the wide and kid - I hate it - I wanted an Edge or current gen Explorer. Girls like the import though.

 

The secret is, I have a good INDEPENDENT mechanic. He maintains local fleets, including police, etc. He knows Fords very well. When he fixes something he generally upgrades the parts so they don't fail again. Like -using Amsiol synthetic ATF - how many people have you ever heard complaining about the 5R55 Trans? Chances are they didn't have an exceptional quality fluid in and it contributed to the failure. My mechanic tells me there is no "widespread "or "well known" problem with any of my Fords that can't be fixed quickly and simply with and upgraded part.

 

Hope you are enjoying the "sitting on the floor' seating in your 4Runner, and the ultra cramped back seat that doesn't fold flat, and the spare tire that just doesn't quite fit under the rear of the car, and the lousy gas mileage...etc.

 

You have been lucky, in the sense that you chose what Ford did best.

 

Except for the 1968 Torino GT and the 1983 EXP, all of those Fords were trucks or truck-based SUVs, which have been noted for their durability. Ford didn't have a problem selling trucks and SUVs until the market collapsed for every manufacturer. Even during Ford's darkest moments I would never have discouraged anyone from buying a Ranger, Explorer or F-150.

 

But not everyone wants a truck or an SUV.

 

If you had driven a Taurus/Sable or Windstar with the crappy 3.8 V-6 and transmission apparently made of plastic, or a Focus made during the first few years of production, you would be singing a different tune...the same tune as hundreds of thousands of customers did. They left Ford, and have no desire to look back.

 

Sorry, I've owned both Hondas and Fords, and have listened to friends and family members who have owned domestics and imports. I also ask independent mechanics which vehicles are the best from a reliability standpoint.

 

It's not just "perception" - the top-level Asian imports were more reliable and better engineered than their domestic competitors. Whether that's true today remains to be seen - Ford is definitely getting MUCH better. Our 2005 Focus has been good as far as the major components (engine, transmission, air conditioning compressor) are concerned. The main problem has been with body integrity issues. But the new Focus and Fiesta look great - easily better than anything comparable from GM, Toyota or Hyundai. They had better be at least as reliable as the Toyotas and Hondas, too.

 

GM is improving, but the improvements are not consistent across its range. Chrysler - still wouldn't trust them. The Europeans - don't get one out of warranty, or find a trustworthy mechanic (like the one employed by my friend with the troublesome Passat - when asked what he needed to do get a reliable car, the mechanic replied, "Trade it.").

 

But Ford isn't going to undo years of shooting itself in the foot overnight.

Edited February 3, 2010 by grbeck

[Joe771476]

The question is: How will Ford keep from having to recall any of its cars down the road and end up in the same boat? These quality issues not only cost billions to correct, they cost billions in FUTURE lack of sales! Ford needs to re-institute the full ,tried and true test track along with door-slamming, brake jamming, etc. This gives a look into possible problems down the road due to time and just plain wear and tear. The costs involved in doing so far outweigh the recall costs and bad press!

[NickF1011]

Ford needs to re-institute the full ,tried and true test track along with door-slamming, brake jamming, etc.

 

 

I don't recall hearing anywhere that Ford had stopped doing that. They probably put more test miles on vehicles now than ever before.

[92merc]

 

I don't recall hearing anywhere that Ford had stopped doing that. They probably put more test miles on vehicles now than ever before.

I thought I remember either the 3.5 or the 3.5EB initial test engines being pushed to well into the hundreds of thousands of miles without issues.

 

Not that it would have helped Toyota in this instance. But I agree, I thought Ford did a lot of testing. I even remember a time when Ford engineers were forced to wear heavy gloves and operate a vehicle to simulate an older person with hand difficulties.

[Kev-Mo]

You have been lucky, in the sense that you chose what Ford did best.

 

" Even during Ford's darkest moments I would never have discouraged anyone from buying a Ranger, Explorer or F-150."

 

 

 

Someone trashing the Explorer is what started this whole smackdown! - C'mon Import fanboys - let's make up our minds here - Is the Explorer included in Ford's good stuff OR "typical American junk".

 

 

One story:

Had the trans fluid serviced in the 1998 Explorer at about 60k miles.

1000 miles later, on my way to Steamboat no less, it started shifting rough, making noises, flaring between 2nd and 3rd - not good.

Went to the guy who serviced it - Said I needed a new trans, and probably a new transfer case.

Went to Ford Dealer - they said I needed a new trans.

Found a new local mechanic (through exhaustive research) who knows Fords. Test drove the car. Said it could be the wrong trans fluid - he sees it all the time when cheap service centers don't bother to do things to spec.

He pulled down the exhaust, removed trans pan, changed filter (most others just backflush), filled with Amsoil synthetic ATF, tested pressure and praises be - the trans shifted like new again! Total bill $120.

 

Moral of the story:

Too much bad service making owners hate their cars!!! American greed is the problem, not American cars. I hear people having their trans or rear ends rebuilt 2 or 3 times - why did the person doing the rebuilding use the same parts that failed in the first place? Why would they not just use an upgraded part to prevent the failure from happening again?

 

 

Back on Topic: It appears to me that Toyota will suffer a setback, but hatred runs deep for American companies. People are willing to forgive the Toyota for the older pickups with single wall beds, the Previa, and Honda for the first generation Odyssey, but they still bring up the Pinto and Vega when debating. Why is that? Those imports mentioned were WAY worse than Detroit's mistakes.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Kev-Mo

[Extreme4x4]

There will always be recalls. ALWAYS

 

The lesson learned here, isn't that a recall is the end of the earth. It is how you handle the quality issue, and recall, that counts. Toyota would have been heralded as THE automotive icon of this century, if they would have held a news conference, stated that there was an issue with the cars, that they were doing everything possible to fix it, and everyones cars would be fixed as quickly as possible, it wouldn't have blown up the way it has.

 

As for Ford "junk" goes, I have owned new Fords, since the 1984 model year. I have never had a bad one yet.

[suv_guy_19]

Funny...I don't think we've ever had a good anything yet....oh wait, 1 Ford...and shockingly (so far) one Dodge.

[grbeck]

quote name='Kev-Mo' date='03 February 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1265234662' post='593999']

Someone trashing the Explorer is what started this whole smackdown! - C'mon Import fanboys - let's make up our minds here - Is the Explorer included in Ford's good stuff OR "typical American junk".

 

I wasn't that poster. Nothing you posted proves what I posted is incorrect. You chose the most durable Fords. You avoided the junk. Lots of other people weren't that lucky.

 

Unfortunately, domestic apologists tend to be poorly informed about the relative quality of various products. People who shun domestics do so because of a bad experience; people who shun the foreign marques do so because they aren't "American" or they "don't like Asian products." (The Detroit News even did a survey on this).

 

Most import owners tend to have had experiences with both domestic and foreign cars (which is logical, as the domestics still had the majority of the market during the lifetime of most of today's drivers)...most domestic apologists have not had experience with the "other side."

 

Moral of the story:

Too much bad service making owners hate their cars!!! American greed is the problem, not American cars. I hear people having their trans or rear ends rebuilt 2 or 3 times - why did the person doing the rebuilding use the same parts that failed in the first place? Why would they not just use an upgraded part to prevent the failure from happening again?

 

Most people would prefer that the transmission not have to be rebuilt in the first place. That's not "greed" - that's called demanding a long-lasting, dependable product for the money.

 

That's called "common sense."

 

Moral of the story:

Back on Topic: It appears to me that Toyota will suffer a setback, but hatred runs deep for American companies. People are willing to forgive the Toyota for the older pickups with single wall beds, the Previa, and Honda for the first generation Odyssey, but they still bring up the Pinto and Vega when debating. Why is that? Those imports mentioned were WAY worse than Detroit's mistakes.

 

If you think that people are still shunning GM and Ford because of the Vega and the Pinto, then you haven't been paying attention.

 

And those problems with the imports were worse than the Ford 3.8 V-6 with crappy head gaskets that blew by 80,000 miles? The terrible Ford AOXD transmissions? The firestarter cruise control switches on various products? The GM V-6s with faulty intake manifold gaskets? The Northstar V-8s that are virtually guaranteeed to self-destruct around 100,000 miles? That's quite a stretch.

[NickF1011]

If you think that people are still shunning GM and Ford because of the Vega and the Pinto, then you haven't been paying attention.

 

I think it's somewhat of a myth that GM and Ford are even being "shunned" in the first place. What are the two best-selling brands in the U.S.? Chevrolet and Ford. Toyota is third.

[Bored of Pisteon]

I think it's somewhat of a myth that GM and Ford are even being "shunned" in the first place. What are the two best-selling brands in the U.S.? Chevrolet and Ford. Toyota is third.

 

I'm waiting for Toyota to slip behind Chrysler! :happy feet:

[NickF1011]

I'm waiting for Toyota to slip behind Chrysler! :happy feet:

 

I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. Toyota has definitely shot themselves in the foot, but Chrysler has shot themselves in the head.

Edited February 4, 2010 by NickF1011

[grbeck]

I think it's somewhat of a myth that GM and Ford are even being "shunned" in the first place. What are the two best-selling brands in the U.S.? Chevrolet and Ford. Toyota is third.

 

They are still fairly weak in passenger cars. For most people, the top two family sedans are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord; the top two compacts are the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic. Those are the "default" choices. Much like the Chevrolet Impala/Ford Galaxie and Chevrolet Chevelle/Ford Fairlane were in the 1960s. In some places around here, driving a Chevrolet passenger car is the same driving a Rambler/AMC was in the 1960s or 1970s. People ask..."Why did you buy one of those?"

 

I'm hoping that the Fusion and new Focus at least make it a three-way fight. The new Focus, which was at the Washington, D.C., Auto Show, looks great. As does the new Fiesta. Both are easiest the best-looking vehicles in their respective class (and that includes the upcoming Chevrolet Cruze, as well as the Aveo RS concept). If they drive as good as they look, and are reliable, Ford will regain significant ground. But when it comes to passenger cars, Ford and Chevrolet are still coming from behind.

Edited February 4, 2010 by grbeck

[Edstock]

but Chrysler has shot themselves in the head.

Oh no!! — brains spattered all over the Corinthian leather!

[NickF1011]

They are still fairly weak in passenger cars. For most people, the top two family sedans are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord; the top two compacts are the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic. Those are the "default" choices.

 

Ford and Chevrolet are still in the top five in those segments though. It's not like they are completely ignored by the buying public. It is safe to say that the domestics are more competitive in cars than the imports are in fullsize trucks.

Edited February 4, 2010 by NickF1011

[2b2]

I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. Toyota has definitely shot themselves in the foot, but Chrysler has shot themselves in the head.

1. If Chrysler aimed a bullet at their head....

...it'd just go thru the hole already put there by MercedesBenz

 

2. Throttlegate Motors is still in the process of ritual suicide - give them more time (&or rope) :D

[grbeck]

Ford and Chevrolet are still in the top five in those segments though. It's not like they are completely ignored by the buying public. It is safe to say that the domestics are more competitive in cars than the imports are in fullsize trucks.

 

With Chevrolet, the top three sellers in January were the Malibu (16,439), the Cobalt (12,962) and the Impala (10,939). Considering that two of those three are fleet queens, I'd say that Chevrolet, least, has lots of work to do regarding retail sales of passenger cars.

[SVT_MAN]

With Chevrolet, the top three sellers in January were the Malibu (16,439), the Cobalt (12,962) and the Impala (10,939). Considering that two of those three are fleet queens, I'd say that Chevrolet, least, has lots of work to do regarding retail sales of passenger cars.

 

What kind of fleet customers are they? Not all fleet customers are bad ...

[Mark B. Morrow]

Oh no!! — brains spattered all over the Corinthian leather!

 

 

Given Chrysler's walking dead lineup...Zombie Chrysler...BRRRAAAAIIINS might be just what they're looking for.

[grbeck]

What kind of fleet customers are they? Not all fleet customers are bad ...

 

Police departments buy Impalas, but I doubt that police departments are going to buy a Cobalt. I see plenty of both here at the rental lots near the airport, along with plenty of Camaros (not to mention lots of Nissan Versas, Sentras and Altimas, too).

Edited February 5, 2010 by grbeck