Ford’s ambitions riding on Lincoln

[papilgee4evaeva]

Hey, Cadillac has a dedicated plant in Lansing, and it will be adding new Cadillac product in a few years.

 

Cadillac was building unique product on its own platform in that plant (CTS, STS, previous SRX). STS is winding down, and the new SRX is built in Mexico now.

 

Escalade is built in Arlington (along with the related Tahoe and Yukon), XLR was built in Bowling Green (on Corvette platform), and DTS is built alongside the Lucerne in Hamtramck.

 

What's the new product that they're adding to Lansing? ATS?

[Footballfan]

Cadillac was building unique product on its own platform in that plant (CTS, STS, previous SRX). STS is winding down, and the new SRX is built in Mexico now.

 

Escalade is built in Arlington (along with the related Tahoe and Yukon), XLR was built in Bowling Green (on Corvette platform), and DTS is built alongside the Lucerne in Hamtramck.

 

What's the new product that they're adding to Lansing? ATS?

 

ATS Coupe, Sedan, and perhaps Wagon. Don't forget the new CTC and CTS Wagon.

[sullynd]

I don't know, but I think the Enclave is right in the same ballpark as the MKT, and the new LaCrosse has many of the features that the MKS has. I also think the MKS is comparable to the Acura T.

 

I guess my point was that Lincoln should be aspiring higher- to the likes of BMW, Lexus, and even Cadillac. Right now, I do not see the Lincoln product quite in the same league as the three.

 

The only thing comparable between the MkT and Enclave is the love it or hate it styling. It is not nearly comparable in powertrain, interior, or features. Same for the overstyled LaCrosse, small interior, lacking powertrains.

 

There are GM Fanboys who swear Caddy should compete with Rolls. More who think it already competes with MB and Lexus. Both are laughable. The only vehicle Caddy has on Lincoln is the CTS, and it's a money pit. In fact, with the SRX and XTS it appears it is Caddy following Lincoln, not the other way around.

 

Lincoln could scrap all it's models, blow a fortune and clone MB, BMW, or Lexus, and people still would be saying they are not there, and still would not be buying their product.

Edited May 13, 2010 by sullynd

[rmc523]

Interesting read:

 

 

 

 

http://autos.aol.com...-lincoln-mkt%2F

 

Certainly interesting.....I don't know why they essentially kept calling it a sedan? :shrug:

 

 

Lincoln cannot become aspirational with a large, diverse lineup - that is for Mercury. Lincoln must have a lineup with a very tight focus, harmonized (not identical) styling on the exterior, and interior styling that is different from the crowd, with common elements in all Lincoln models. I see a 3 car lineup - 2+2 coupe, mid size to large sedan/4 door hardtop, and a large luxury car. No people movers. No crossovers or SUVs. No entry level "specials". Just Lincolns. Sure, not everyone will be able to afford one, but hey, Lincoln = aspirations.

 

I see what you're saying with the exclusivity factor, but with what you propose, Lincoln would abandon a good chunk of today's luxury market without crossovers and such.

[lfeg]

What I suggest is not something that can happen in the next 5 years or so. And if Lincoln is to be a true luxury car line, something like that must happen in the not so long future.

 

And the whole SUV/Crossover thing is just a byproduct of regulation by the US government. The SUV craze pretty much sprang up to fill a void left because a segment of popular cars was legislated away. Crossovers are just an evolution of the SUV (partly market driven, partly government reg driven), and will probably morph back to being alot more car-like in the absence of government meddling. The trend is to treat all passenger vehicles (be they cars, crossovers, SUVs) to similar emission and fuel economy regs. And a rising fuel price will further drive the morphing. I am taking a long view on this, so in my opinion, a Lincon that is a line of luxury vehicles will be cars by the time it gets all sorted out.

 

And Ford does not need Lincoln to be a full line make. They have no need to have an entry level Lincoln. I agree with the statement that Lincoln should be a no compromise make of luxury autos with a distinctly American style and flair, so why should compromises be made to come up with a "low ball" Lincoln that is more affordable for the masses? And if Lincoln is to be a full line offering, complete with entry level offerings, slotted just above Ford, what is the point of wasting marketing funds and effort on Mercury? If the Toyota/Lexus format is the one to emulate, why even bother with Mercury? Just turn it into something like Scion and put it in a corner at select Ford dealers.

[NickF1011]

Hey, Cadillac has a dedicated plant in Lansing, and it will be adding new Cadillac product in a few years.

 

In that case, it made sense. There were two platforms being built there that none of their other brands used. Lincoln's vehicles into the foreseeable future will be using Ford-derived platforms, making a unique plant for their assembly completely pointless.

 

As others have already pointed out, only Caddy's were built there out of convenience. Other Cadillacs were assembled at other plants when it made more fiscal sense.

[NickF1011]

And the whole SUV/Crossover thing is just a byproduct of regulation by the US government. The SUV craze pretty much sprang up to fill a void left because a segment of popular cars was legislated away.

 

What exactly legislated away whatever popular segment of vehicles you are referring to (I assume you are referring to fullsize sedans and station wagons). And CUV's evolved mainly because automakers didn't get it right with SUV's. Yes, they were popular, but only because the concept of the CUV hadn't been stumbled upon yet. For the vast majority of station wagon and SUV owners, a newer CUV would serve their needs better. That's why they exist.

[silvrsvt]

What exactly legislated away whatever popular segment of vehicles you are referring to (I assume you are referring to fullsize sedans and station wagons). And CUV's evolved mainly because automakers didn't get it right with SUV's. Yes, they were popular, but only because the concept of the CUV hadn't been stumbled upon yet. For the vast majority of station wagon and SUV owners, a newer CUV would serve their needs better. That's why they exist.

 

Not to mention they don't have a "Stigma" of a station wagon or Minivan. Looking at Gen X and Gen Y, Gen X grew up with station wagons and lesser extent Minivans....Y was Minivans to SUV's. I just wonder if CUV's will suffer the same fate.

[NickF1011]

I just wonder if CUV's will suffer the same fate.

 

I doubt it, because it's a lot easier to make a somewhat credible "sporty" CUV compared to a station wagon or minivan, something that will prevent younger buyers from scoffing at the segment.

[atvman]

Not to mention they don't have a "Stigma" of a station wagon or Minivan. Looking at Gen X and Gen Y, Gen X grew up with station wagons and lesser extent Minivans....Y was Minivans to SUV's. I just wonder if CUV's will suffer the same fate.

Probably not. Minivans were just uncool, which is why they lost popularity so fast. SUVs never lost their decent "cool" factor, they just don't do the job as well as CUVs. I don't think we'll see CUVs fade away unless gas really gets out of hand. Then again, CUVs are starting to catch sedans in the mpg race.

[akirby]

SUVs became popular when mfrs started making them with luxury features. Prior to the Explorer they were mostly just large, truck based work vehicles. People wanted big, comfortable versatile vehicles and SUVs fit the bill as long as gas wasn't an issue. It wasn't until gas prices hit $4 that SUVs fell out of favor and people started switching to smaller more fuel efficient CUVs. CUVs also benefited from the growing discontent with minivans.

[ANTAUS]

Another issue to consider is the overlap between Ford and Lincoln brand vehicles. We can have a well loaded Taurus that's treading over MKZ and in some versions like Limited, into MKS territory. At least in that example, the quality, attention to detail and materials are that, of luxury status. The next problem is that it forces Ford to push the price point of the next MKS a bit upwards, but save for a longer warranty, it's not justified because suddenly your throwing the vehicle with tougher foreign competition. Which is probably why there is no Sable, so the customer doesn't compare MKS and Sable in the same showroom as they did with GM and TC in years past.

[lfeg]

Another issue to consider is the overlap between Ford and Lincoln brand vehicles. We can have a well loaded Taurus that's treading over MKZ and in some versions like Limited, into MKS territory. At least in that example, the quality, attention to detail and materials are that, of luxury status. The next problem is that it forces Ford to push the price point of the next MKS a bit upwards, but save for a longer warranty, it's not justified because suddenly your throwing the vehicle with tougher foreign competition. Which is probably why there is no Sable, so the customer doesn't compare MKS and Sable in the same showroom as they did with GM and TC in years past.

 

 

Another reason than can justify moving Lincoln up into the luxury car segment instead of "affordable luxury" where it is now. Move Lincoln's price points up by having a more exclusive style, and well above average fit, finish, and amenities; particularly in the interior. Currently there is quite a bit of overlap between Ford and Lincoln - one reason for the current thin Mercury lineup. Move Lincoln up to put some space between it and the Ford line, so it is not just an extension of the Ford line, but a real step up.

[akirby]

Move Lincoln up to put some space between it and the Ford line, so it is not just an extension of the Ford line, but a real step up.

 

That is definitely the plan - move Ford higher, which started with the Taurus. The problem is the 2nd step in that process - move Lincoln higher - couldn't be done at the same time so yes, for now there is a lot more overlap between the Taurus and MKS. But that will be fixed as new Lincoln models get rolled out.

[one2gamble]

I've actually lost my taste for Lincoln in the last year or so, but it's probalby just my changing attitudes. The newest Lincolns are far too traditional, resembling Buicks more than the trendy urban chic designs I started to love in 2007-2008. Lincoln's failure to really produce substantive products is starting to drive me away.

 

I don't like Caddy either, although they are certainly producing better machines than Lincoln. And forget Lexus! Acura, Infiiti...meh.

 

I'm affraid I'm probably moving toward the import sector of the market, particulalry Audi which has always appealed to me. Otherwise, I'm moving back to Ford brand largely because I like the new Edge so much .

 

 

me hearts Audi

 

Just make sure you get the 100k warranty

[ANTAUS]

Considering the design of such equisite interior like those found in Land Rovers and Jaguar, there is NO excuse for Ford not to be able to design and deliver a super luxurious interior befitting the Lincoln name...I want oppulance..well restrained, without being Bentley tacky either...

[atvman]

Considering the design of such equisite interior like those found in Land Rovers and Jaguar, there is NO excuse for Ford not to be able to design and deliver a super luxurious interior befitting the Lincoln name...I want oppulance..well restrained, without being Bentley tacky either...

I like the interior in the MKT. The MKX looks nice too, but I haven't been in one yet. I think Lincoln's interior design and quality is definitely on the right track.

[timmm55]

I like the interior in the MKT. The MKX looks nice too, but I haven't been in one yet. I think Lincoln's interior design and quality is definitely on the right track.

 

 

The MKS seems somewhat outdated now, the designs are changing so quickly. The other Lincoln interiors IMHO are beautiful and elegant.

[NickF1011]

The MKS seems somewhat outdated now, the designs are changing so quickly. The other Lincoln interiors IMHO are beautiful and elegant.

 

The Navigator is the worst offender in the bunch. Seems to be all but forgotten by Lincoln these days.

[ANTAUS]

Wonder where Ford is taking the big SUV's next time they are redesigned...

[akirby]

Wonder where Ford is taking the big SUV's next time they are redesigned...

 

Given the anticipated lower sales volumes I think it's a given that the next gen Expedition/Navigator will share the F150 platform and drivetrains.

[newford]

Given the anticipated lower sales volumes I think it's a given that the next gen Expedition/Navigator will share the F150 platform and drivetrains.

 

How different is that from the current Expedition/Navigator models?

[atvman]

How different is that from the current Expedition/Navigator models?

I know the SUVs have IRS, but I can't say for sure how much different they are other than that. It would be to Ford's advantage to be able to build the F150, Navigator, and Expedition all on the same assembly line. I'm thinking that the tooling for the next generation F150 will be designed with that capability.

[akirby]

I know the SUVs have IRS, but I can't say for sure how much different they are other than that. It would be to Ford's advantage to be able to build the F150, Navigator, and Expedition all on the same assembly line. I'm thinking that the tooling for the next generation F150 will be designed with that capability.

 

I believe they morphed the Expedition into a different platform with unique suspensions, front clips and interiors, which was ok when they were selling a lot of them. I think you'll see a lot more sharing of suspension, sheetmetal and interiors going forward.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

I know the SUVs have IRS, but I can't say for sure how much different they are other than that. It would be to Ford's advantage to be able to build the F150, Navigator, and Expedition all on the same assembly line. I'm thinking that the tooling for the next generation F150 will be designed with that capability.

 

From what I remember, the Expedition goes like this...

 

Up to ~2003, it was build on a modified F-150 platform.

 

During the 2003ish redesign, it got a practically all new platform designed for it's use. It differed greatly from the F-150 because it's volume was projected to support it. This was also the introduction of the IRS.

 

During the 2007/2008 timeframe, it got revised again and was made more compatible with the F-150 with respect to many components.

 

The rumored next major revision is supposed to return it to the pre-2003 level of commonality or higher, with the only major (non-body) diference being the rear axle/suspension setup, which I am given to understand will remain IRS (it's the one thing that the Expedition has over the Tahoe/Suburban and they'd be foolish to abandon it). I believe that, in order to retain it's cargo/seating flexibility, it can't use the exact same rear frame that the F-150 uses and wil require a modified rear frame setup. This doesn't mean that it can't be built on the same line with the F-150s, only that it will have to get unique frames.

 

From a technical standpoint, they're already most of the way there with the existing crew cab F-150. All you really have to do is start with the Short bed frame, extend the body shell enough for a third row and a modest cargo area. The difficult part is doing the IRS setup, putting a tub in the floor for the folding rear seat, and making the modifications to the frame to accomodate it all. The EL just starts with the mid-length bed frame I suppose. Obviously, I'm simplifying things a great deal here, but that's the big-picture process.