Lincoln model names *POLL*

[Edstock]

and also figure out why Cadillac is killing them.

:hysterical:

[akirby]

Lincoln's track record is not near as good. Not for decades has Ford proven it knows how to run a luxury brand properly. Until they do, I will remain skeptical and not a Stepford wife for anyone.

 

Ford hasn't done much with the brand since then and what it has done still hasn't worked.

 

Which is EXACTLY why Ford has a NEW MANAGEMENT TEAM in place now. Remember that Mulally guy? He wasn't around in previous decades. Neither was Fields or Kuzak or Farley. And they haven't YET done anything with Lincoln. They even said they weren't going to put much effort into Lincoln until they turned Ford around. In other words they're doing exactly what they said they would do and you haven't seen ANYTHING of the new Lincoln plan yet.

 

That's like saying the 2010 Falcons will suck because the 2007 Falcons sucked. Different players, different management, different result. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

 

You guys can prattle on all you want about how Ford is making money selling 600 MKTs/month, but to me Lincoln is a failure sales wise and every other way. Again, I'll believe it when I see it and that includes decent sales figures.

 

So when are they going to kill Audi? The whole brand only sold just over 9K units in August with only 2 models over that magical 2K units/month mark you made up.

 

The following vehicles should be killed immediately:

 

A3 564

A5 1,424

A6 725

A8 95

Q7 560

R8 114

TT 165

[OHV 16V]

...A RWD V-8 sedan tests well but no in the younger demo.

 

I agreed with your entire statement, but I want to know where the group studies were conducted at. This line in particular bothers me because I fit the demographic in question and I can say that myself along with practically everyone else I speak with in my age group thinks that this is the exact kind of car Lincoln SHOULD be building.

 

But how is the question asked? Remember, the only images my age group have to think of when you use Lincoln, RWD, & V-8 in the same sentence are the Town Car and the LS. (Some remember the last Continentals or Mark VIIIs, but not nearly as much) You want us to aspire to own a Lincoln? Then a sporty, RWD, V-8 sedan (offering a manual trans option too) is what will appeal. The task is NOT EASY at all, but think BMW 5-Series type of car with Ford build quality and a price starting in a range that is less than said 5-Series.

 

Again, understandably, NOT EASY, but my $0.02, going by what is discussed amongst friends.

Edited September 9, 2010 by OHV 16V

[NickF1011]

Uh, Ford has a track record of turning itself around, but Lincoln's track record is not near as good. Not for decades has Ford proven it knows how to run a luxury brand properly.

 

Lincoln has no track record? I think the fact that they have been around for 90 years speaks volumes for the long-term success of the brand.

[ANTAUS]

As I've mentioned before, I keep hearing excuses to fail, no reasons to succeed. "Oh we wanna be like Lexus", "Oh, lets try this new direction", "Oh, we dont need no RWD"...etc. They haven't pointed out WHERE their problem lies. And that is, vehicles to aspire to. And not a specific vehicle, rather a whole line. The LS caught the attention for awhile of "things changing", and brought new people into the brand. But that festered on the vine. Now what? Clones with more chromes will cut it? It's currently their method...not working. So Next? What are their plans? A ex-Tracer? No coupe? No sporty sedan? I'm interested in their announcement as to which direction they are planning on taking.

[twintornados]

....When Sentinel is tested the response is a newspaper in Orlando Fl. LOL ....

Or a newspaper in Rome NY...

[NickF1011]

As I've mentioned before, I keep hearing excuses to fail, no reasons to succeed. "Oh we wanna be like Lexus", "Oh, lets try this new direction", "Oh, we dont need no RWD"...etc. They haven't pointed out WHERE their problem lies. And that is, vehicles to aspire to. And not a specific vehicle, rather a whole line. The LS caught the attention for awhile of "things changing", and brought new people into the brand. But that festered on the vine. Now what? Clones with more chromes will cut it? It's currently their method...not working. So Next? What are their plans? A ex-Tracer? No coupe? No sporty sedan? I'm interested in their announcement as to which direction they are planning on taking.

 

Clones with more chrome obviously isn't the answer, and it seems pretty clear that is not the direction Ford will be taking the brand in the future, despite what some are insisting. The brand needs its own identity. What that identity will ultimately be I don't know, but I have confidence that Mulally, Fields, Farley, etc are the right team to figure that out based on what they have managed thus far with the Ford brand and on Farley's experience at Lexus.

[silvrsvt]

I hear everyone saying oh we need another Lincoln LS....I say why? It only sold 262K units in 6 years or so, often with huge incentives on them.

 

 

The only thing it had going for it was it was RWD...but it was saddled with being an entry level luxury car (great idea, lets base it on a car that goes for double the price of the entry level LS!..thats a recipe to make $$$!) and be Mid Range Model....thats like asking the MKS to do the same thing now!

 

 

 

[FordBuyer]

Lincoln has no track record? I think the fact that they have been around for 90 years speaks volumes for the long-term success of the brand.

 

Why do you keep putting words into my mouth. I didn't say no track record. I said a track record not as good as Ford. A big difference. In fact, if Ford hadn't turned itself around multiple times, there would be no Lincoln period and my Dad would have never left AMC for Ford in 1955 a I wouldn't be bugging you on BOF as I would have no history with Ford. My Dad took me to about every special Ford function in the late 50's and early 60's when he worked in different Ford buildings on the campus. We would go to the B plan lots together and look for cars also. It took a complete Ford turnaround in 1948-49 to get Ford to the late 50's and beyond. And btw I love the Lincolns of the 50's era. I've been a life long Fordophile ever since.

[FordBuyer]

I hear everyone saying oh we need another Lincoln LS....I say why? It only sold 262K units in 6 years or so, often with huge incentives on them.

 

 

The only thing it had going for it was it was RWD...but it was saddled with being an entry level luxury car (great idea, lets base it on a car that goes for double the price of the entry level LS!..thats a recipe to make $$$!) and be Mid Range Model....thats like asking the MKS to do the same thing now!

 

Wasn't the Jaguar S Type based off the LS platform? We know what happened to the Jag also. However, I believe the LS first two years had some quality issues as in faulty electrics and such. I know it got a problematic reputation, but it did get good reviews from enthusiasts. It was a modest effort though in some ways, but it had promise and could have used an extensive MCE instead of the modest one it received. Hopefully both Ford and Lincoln will receieve HALO vehicles that sell in very low volume, but showcase what Ford can do like it did with Ford GT. Not necessarily a $150,000 super car, but a $70,000 sport coupe would be nice and Ford getting a Cobra would be nice in $100,000 range.

[FordBuyer]

Clones with more chrome obviously isn't the answer, and it seems pretty clear that is not the direction Ford will be taking the brand in the future, despite what some are insisting. The brand needs its own identity. What that identity will ultimately be I don't know, but I have confidence that Mulally, Fields, Farley, etc are the right team to figure that out based on what they have managed thus far with the Ford brand and on Farley's experience at Lexus.

 

I have every confidence that Ford will bring better Lincolns out, but I'm not confident that they will be best in class or even very close to that. Farley let the cat out of the bag when he set the price range. Lexus clones does not impress me. If I were to give Lincoln average number grade on 1-10 scale, I would give it an average of 5 with MKX above average, MKZ hybrid a little above average, and all other below that average. I expect Lincoln to get up to a 7, but not beyond from what I have heard. To get to 8 and 9, Ford will have to take Lincoln into above $60,000 price range on some models. I'm sure Lincoln could do alright if they could do 20% better than now, but to really compete with the big boys at that level, they have to take Lincoln farther IMO. The competition is that good. I still have this feeling that Ford expectations for Lincoln are still just a little better than a Ford. With Ford getting so good, the expectations for Lincoln have to really grow to make the brand viable.

[Critic]

America entered a BOON shortly after WWII, Henry Ford II, GM, Chrysler all had a new reason to BUILD BUILD BUILD then. During the 50's every one of those manufacturers opened up Brand New Big Plants all over the US and a lot of them were not Michigan based. As a matter of fact, when HF went to one particular Midwest city, the powers to be in that city told him, you can't open up one of those plants here. His reply? I'll open a plant any damn place I please and he went right ahead with that.

 

I've seen so much speculation tossed on this thread, and a lot of it is so subjective. Number one is, if your going to use the word Chrome, stop, Their isn't enough 'Chrome' on a car nor ever has been since they did away with vent windows.

 

Quit demanding that your changes you want are to be Tomorrow. If your not a Lincoln buyer or driver then stop acting like one. It doesn't mean 1 million Lincoln's have to be sold to make it a contender. What a viable business is, is one that can support the R&D for the future, can bring a profit and can put food on the table for the people involved with it.

 

Half the problem has been with satisfying the quarterly estimates of the shareholder, pre 6/06. Mulally has done pretty good so far and will probably be around for at least another 5 years. I personally hope Farley moves ahead of Mark 'the hair' Fields. Ford buckled down 3+ years ago to right the sinking ship and it's just now holding steady.

[ANTAUS]

Well the LS might have sold at 262K (if those are the numbers) for those 6 years, but I betcha it'll sell hundreds of times more than the MKT will And yes, it needed heavy incentives, some were hitting over $52K...The vehicle was good, but some of the competition which was easily $15K lower. What the vehicle did bring is a new promise of a sporty Euro tuned vehicles and brought younger buyers into the brand. That was their point at the time.

 

Ford can produc e a sporty RWD vehicle, its called Mustang. And they can do it at much less of a price.

[akirby]

Wasn't the Jaguar S Type based off the LS platform?

 

No - they were both built on a jointly developed platform at the same time.

 

It was a modest effort though in some ways, but it had promise and could have used an extensive MCE instead of the modest one it received.

 

It was a great effort from a handling standpoint. A full independent aluminum suspension works great but costs a lot. The interior was cheap and power was only so-so because Ford didn't want Lincoln competing with Jag. And the suspension prevented the 4.6L from being used which would have yielded more power for a lot less money.

 

It didn't receive a better MCE because it never should have been built. The business case was faulty from the beginning. It just took a few years to kill it.

 

Hopefully both Ford and Lincoln will receieve HALO vehicles that sell in very low volume,

 

Seriously? So now you're saying it's ok to have low volume vehicles but before you said anything that doesn't sell 2K/month should be killed? Do you not grasp the contradiction in your logic?

[PREMiERdrum]

Seriously? So now you're saying it's ok to have low volume vehicles but before you said anything that doesn't sell 2K/month should be killed? Do you not grasp the contradiction in your logic?

 

I'm not sure that "logic" is the word here... :shades:

[FordBuyer]

No - they were both built on a jointly developed platform at the same time.

 

 

 

It was a great effort from a handling standpoint. A full independent aluminum suspension works great but costs a lot. The interior was cheap and power was only so-so because Ford didn't want Lincoln competing with Jag. And the suspension prevented the 4.6L from being used which would have yielded more power for a lot less money.

 

It didn't receive a better MCE because it never should have been built. The business case was faulty from the beginning. It just took a few years to kill it.

 

 

 

Seriously? So now you're saying it's ok to have low volume vehicles but before you said anything that doesn't sell 2K/month should be killed? Do you not grasp the contradiction in your logic?

 

Uh, the MKS and MKT are not Halo vehicles. They are not even close to being Halo vehicles. But they have the sales volume of a Halo vehicle, especially the MKT. That is not good. No one expects a Halo vehicle to sell at any kind of volume. Again, I don't think Ford planned on the MKT selling as badly as it is. And I doubt if they are thrilled about MKS sales volume either. As it stands now, a Lincoln dealer is lucky to sell one MKS/month and with MKT they don't even do that. I remember when the MKS first came out before the new Taurus hit the streets, the MKS was in the 2,000/month range and Metro Detroit LM dealers didn't need $269 lease deals to push them off lot. But alas the new Taurus cratered MKS sales as expected. The Taurus is a better vehicle for the money.

[PREMiERdrum]

Uh, the MKS and MKT are not Halo vehicles. They are not even close to being Halo vehicles. But they have the sales volume of a Halo vehicle, especially the MKT. That is not good. No one expects a Halo vehicle to sell at any kind of volume. Again, I don't think Ford planned on the MKT selling as badly as it is. And I doubt if they are thrilled about MKS sales volume either. As it stands now, a Lincoln dealer is lucky to sell one MKS/month and with MKT they don't even do that. I remember when the MKS first came out before the new Taurus hit the streets, the MKS was in the 2,000/month range and Metro Detroit LM dealers didn't need $269 lease deals to push them off lot. But alas the new Taurus cratered MKS sales as expected. The Taurus is a better vehicle for the money.

 

I'm not totally sure that "halo" is the right term, but the concept behind the MKT very much seems to be the best realization of the brand's message: A Leer jet for the road.

[Critic]

P71?

Trimdingbat?

I got the feeling he post's on Lincoln threads under a different nick while using Thorazine

[TomServo92]

P71?

Trimdingbat?

I got the feeling he post's on Lincoln threads under a different nick while using Thorazine

 

The fact that he's not taking the Thorazine might be the problem....

[BrewfanGRB]

So your confirming BORG is just weird then LOL

 

How do you appeal to the younger demographic? I like Lincoln, but personally I wouldn't buy one...then again I'm only 35 :P

 

 

So, my question is if you "like" Lincoln, but you wouldn't buy one...why? What makes you like the car, but prevents you from wanting to buy it? It's like a girl that admits she like-likes you, but will stay with her dickhead boyfriend.

 

I'm 34...and I'd gladly buy an MKZ over a Fusion if I could/can make the money work. But, I would never buy an MKS over a SHO). Less money and less power with the same features (what does the S have the SHO doesn't have as at least an available option? In my opinion, it's an absolute killer.) makes no sense. If I have 55k for an S, why not spend 46k for the same car? Style of the car? Just a little bit softer ride?

 

If Ford could figure out how to fix your answer to my question above, that would be a long way toward fixing some of the problems. A lot of car buying is psychology.

[twintornados]

As I've mentioned before, I keep hearing excuses to fail, no reasons to succeed. "Oh we wanna be like Lexus", "Oh, lets try this new direction", "Oh, we dont need no RWD"...etc. They haven't pointed out WHERE their problem lies. And that is, vehicles to aspire to. And not a specific vehicle, rather a whole line. The LS caught the attention for awhile of "things changing", and brought new people into the brand. But that festered on the vine. Now what? Clones with more chromes will cut it? It's currently their method...not working. So Next? What are their plans? A ex-Tracer? No coupe? No sporty sedan? I'm interested in their announcement as to which direction they are planning on taking.

I believe you will hear that plan announced shortly after the October 4th meeting with the Lincoln dealers. If Ford has a plan for Lincoln, I am sure it has already been drawn up and they are working out the final bugs and are getting ready for input from the dealers to finalize it all....as a phrase from the television news organizations used to say....

 

Please stand by....

[FordBuyer]

So, my question is if you "like" Lincoln, but you wouldn't buy one...why? What makes you like the car, but prevents you from wanting to buy it? It's like a girl that admits she like-likes you, but will stay with her dickhead boyfriend.

 

I'm 34...and I'd gladly buy an MKZ over a Fusion if I could/can make the money work. But, I would never buy an MKS over a SHO). Less money and less power with the same features (what does the S have the SHO doesn't have as at least an available option? In my opinion, it's an absolute killer.) makes no sense. If I have 55k for an S, why not spend 46k for the same car? Style of the car? Just a little bit softer ride?

 

If Ford could figure out how to fix your answer to my question above, that would be a long way toward fixing some of the problems. A lot of car buying is psychology.

 

What does an MKZ have over a well equipped Fuson SEL or Sport? I can't find anything of value to me and in many ways Fusion SEL has more useful features than the MKZ. Sorry, I wouldn't pay $8,000 more for a split wing grille, and bright plastic doesn't turn me on. A little better leather and even cheaper looking dashboard doesn't do it for me either. Everytime I look at an MKZ and look at sticker I shake my head. Ditto with MKS. Like you said, I'll take the Taurus and the massaging seats. A few months ago my local historical museum had a new MKZ parked out front that they were raffling off. This thing had not many more features than loaded Fusion SEL and stickered for almost $43,000. I would not want to be a local LM dealer and try to sell that to the public at that price.

[silvrsvt]

Well the LS might have sold at 262K (if those are the numbers) for those 6 years, but I betcha it'll sell hundreds of times more than the MKT will And yes, it needed heavy incentives, some were hitting over $52K...The vehicle was good, but some of the competition which was easily $15K lower. What the vehicle did bring is a new promise of a sporty Euro tuned vehicles and brought younger buyers into the brand. That was their point at the time.

 

Ford can produc e a sporty RWD vehicle, its called Mustang. And they can do it at much less of a price.

 

 

So goes back to the point of why did they make the LS if they couldn't make $$ off it? The MKT might not sell in great numbers, but we also have the worse car market since...who knows when and it seems like it is making $$$

 

Yes Ford can do it, but can the Mustang or even the Falcon platform at this point in time be made into a world class Luxury car? They are good products, but I'm not sure if they have the refinement needed to be made into serious luxury cars...but at the same time what does the Fusion and Taurus have that they don't.

 

So, my question is if you "like" Lincoln, but you wouldn't buy one...why? What makes you like the car, but prevents you from wanting to buy it? It's like a girl that admits she like-likes you, but will stay with her dickhead boyfriend.

 

I'm 34...and I'd gladly buy an MKZ over a Fusion if I could/can make the money work. But, I would never buy an MKS over a SHO). Less money and less power with the same features (what does the S have the SHO doesn't have as at least an available option? In my opinion, it's an absolute killer.) makes no sense. If I have 55k for an S, why not spend 46k for the same car? Style of the car? Just a little bit softer ride?

 

If Ford could figure out how to fix your answer to my question above, that would be a long way toward fixing some of the problems. A lot of car buying is psychology.

 

 

Thats the point with Lincoln, it needs a serious rebranding...I think to breaks it down is this, look at Lexus...they have an excellent reputation with their buyers (for the most part), even though their best selling products are a Camry and Highlander (well the RX came first but besides the point) rebadges. AFAIK, they don't offer anything above and beyond what their Toyota counterparts do when it comes to equipment either. I'm starting to see a pattern here that Lincoln is starting to follow...they need to work on improving their customer service and primarily work on their image with the general public...I dunno maybe they need to start sticking Lincoln products into moves in "cool" parts to make them attractive to the general public again..thats the big issue.

 

Its much like the same deal with Coach bags...why do women spend $300 a bag with a name on it when they can get the same thing at Target for 1/3 the price or less? Another thing to consider to is that Coach is starting to become over saturated in the market, which is damaging its cache.

 

I would not want to be a local LM dealer and try to sell that to the public at that price.

 

 

See above...and most LM dealers are FL now...as for you not buying a Lincoln because it costs too much...if you get a loaded Ford product thats equipped like a Lincoln, I bet Ford is making even more $$$$ off you then it is then if you bought a Lincoln. Thats a Win-Win for them....

 

 

 

[akirby]

So goes back to the point of why did they make the LS if they couldn't make $$ off it?

 

Because the parameters to the business case that said they could make money were flawed. It required sales of >100K units which were totally unrealistic. It was a bad business case that never should have been approved.

[FordBuyer]

So goes back to the point of why did they make the LS if they couldn't make $$ off it? The MKT might not sell in great numbers, but we also have the worse car market since...who knows when and it seems like it is making $$$

 

Yes Ford can do it, but can the Mustang or even the Falcon platform at this point in time be made into a world class Luxury car? They are good products, but I'm not sure if they have the refinement needed to be made into serious luxury cars...but at the same time what does the Fusion and Taurus have that they don't.

 

 

 

 

Thats the point with Lincoln, it needs a serious rebranding...I think to breaks it down is this, look at Lexus...they have an excellent reputation with their buyers (for the most part), even though their best selling products are a Camry and Highlander (well the RX came first but besides the point) rebadges. AFAIK, they don't offer anything above and beyond what their Toyota counterparts do when it comes to equipment either. I'm starting to see a pattern here that Lincoln is starting to follow...they need to work on improving their customer service and primarily work on their image with the general public...I dunno maybe they need to start sticking Lincoln products into moves in "cool" parts to make them attractive to the general public again..thats the big issue.

 

Its much like the same deal with Coach bags...why do women spend $300 a bag with a name on it when they can get the same thing at Target for 1/3 the price or less? Another thing to consider to is that Coach is starting to become over saturated in the market, which is damaging its cache.

 

 

 

 

See above...and most LM dealers are FL now...as for you not buying a Lincoln because it costs too much...if you get a loaded Ford product thats equipped like a Lincoln, I bet Ford is making even more $$$$ off you then it is then if you bought a Lincoln. Thats a Win-Win for them....

 

 

Don't forget the Lexus dealership experience. I know the Lexus dealerships in Metro Detroit are very special and unlike othe dealership experiences. I doubt if you have to take your vehicle in...they come and pick up vehicle from your work and drive it back when ready or bring out loaner to you. And of course the dealerhip experience itself is better than the competition.

 

LM dealerships in Metro Detroit can be very nice also, but not really on par with Lexus experience in many ways. There are more LM dealerships, but for most part except for one not even near as nice. Ford needs to work on that also expecially if certain LM dealerships fall by the wayside. If you are plopping down in excess of $50,000 for vehicle, you want experience to be memorable, not pedestrian. Lincoln around here needs to offer more than golf cart out to lot and back. It needs to make the customer feel special in many different ways. The luxury experience has to be all encompassing to compete effectively. I really don't see how Lincoln can do well connected to Ford dealership unless it is done in very disconnected way so that you are just sharing general property, but everything else is disconnected and so very different. Lots of challenging work ahead.