stpatrick90 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Ford sales are up 21% and Lincoln sales are flat with Cadillac sales up 35%. What don't you get about that? Ford doesn't need Lincoln anymore for anything. The way Lincoln is today, I don't even see how Ford makes a business case for spending even a billion more on that fallen division. And those comparing Lincoln to Porsche are crazy. Porsche has always had a very small footprint in America and is basically known here as a niche, sports car maker that appeals to hardcore enthusiasts. Only recently have they competed in luxury SUV and sedan segment. And even Porsche has an iffy future as new CAFE rules kick in. Autoblog is already talking about possibility of Porsche bringing in diesel powered models. And Panorama magazine is saying that the Flat 6 engine days are numbered. Big changes coming. First of all no one compared Lincoln to Porsche. If you recall I originally mocked your silly sales volume requirement by using Porsche as a requirement. You see only what you want and ignore everything else. Also I personally could care less about Porsche save for the 911 which is a true enthusiast car. Second of all you are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hung up on sales numbers because you think that is the greatest measure of success. If that were the case like brands Jaguar, Land Rover and even Cadillac shouldn't even try because between Lexus, BMW, and MB they have the market to their own. The only comparison that should be made is between Lincoln and Cadillac, as they are traditionally much higher volume luxury brands and both domestic competitors. Not sure why you guys confuse Ford brand with Lincoln brand. I'm very happy with Ford brand performance and where they are going. And Ford has paid attention to Lincoln this decade as they brought out four new products. All are performing below average to downright poor. Lincoln has not been ignored as is popular perception. Mercury was ignored. Lincoln got the McFlex, not Mercury. Lincoln got the McTaurus, and Mercury lost its Sable. Lincoln got a McFusion and a hybrid. Lincoln still has the McExpedition and Town Car. Lincoln got the McEdge and Mercury got nothing. And still Mercury outsold Lincoln for 2010 even as Ford publicly ended Mercury in early October. My first question is how do you know they are performing below average or downright poor? Is this OPINION based on your MADE UP sales volume requirement of 2000/month? Also have you not moved on from Mercury yet? Heck I actually own a Mercury that I love to death but I am not upset. In summary, my view is that Lincoln is nothing more than a distraction and for Lincoln to become a factor again in luxury sales Ford will have to spend a lot of money. As has been stated on here so ELOQUENTLY, I don't think Ford is willing to spend the required money on Lincoln to make it truly special. So I support pulling the plug and concentrating on high end Ford models that would sell at higher volumes than pitiful Lincoln sales. I love the Lincoln name, but I liked the Mercury name also and it's in Ford's trash heap of fallen names. Well seeing as Ford has publicly announced a commitment to Lincoln your claim is again baseless that Ford isn't going to spend the required money. Ford has mentioned EcoBoost powertrains throughout the Lincoln range (including Navigator), they have mentioned a Lincoln specific motor, among other Lincoln specific things. What more do you want? Oh that is right in your world things can be engineered and implemented in a month so that products can quickly sell over 2000/month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Lincoln MKS is the Lincoln equivalent of the 2006 Ford Fusion. A good first effort. That's a pretty good analogy. I think the refreshed MKS will boost it up to current Fusion levels of improvement. I really don't think we'll see a fantastic improvement until an all-new design though. In other words, I'm expecting a whole lot from the next Fusion. :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Oh that is right in your world things can be engineered and implemented in a month so that products can quickly sell over 2000/month. ADD is quite a challenge for the afflicted, and an equal challenge for those who have to read such ill-thought drivel. It's tough, sometimes, but we need to be patient with the purblind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) That wasn't the point raised by FB. FB said that the MKS was lacking in terms of HP. He also said that Lincoln sold over 200k units in 'the recent past', which is also false. The Lincoln MKS is the Lincoln equivalent of the 2006 Ford Fusion. A good first effort. BINGO!...Richard gets it......its kinda liks the current Fusion, a stopgap till the Global Fusion comes out...and Ford did a hell of a lot more than was necessary for what is basically a "stopgap"..... Edited January 27, 2011 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 BINGO!...Richard gets it......its kinda liks the current Fusion, a stopgap till the Global Fusion comes out...and Ford did a hell of a lot more than was necessary for what is basically a "stopgap"..... Well, I wouldn't say Ford did more than was necessary, but they certainly did more than we were used to from them. It shows a commitment to keeping class-leading product at the top and working to make subpar product class-leading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 FordBuyer has posted 798 words since I asked him to answer this question: "If Cadillac spends 3x what Lincoln spends and sells 2x as much, are they better off?" He has not answered it. As a note to the board in general, this thread will be closed once FordBuyer posts another 400 words to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 You were really bored this morning................. huh?? LOL Only 400 more words?? Well, I guess it will get closed after his next post. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 FordBuyer has posted 798 words since I asked him to answer this question: "If Cadillac spends 3x what Lincoln spends and sells 2x as much, are they better off?" He has not answered it. As a note to the board in general, this thread will be closed once FordBuyer posts another 400 words to it. I asked him essentially the same question earlier than you and he hasn't answer mine either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosetang Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Lincoln MKS is the Lincoln equivalent of the 2006 Ford Fusion. A good first effort. Bingo. The worst thing to do would be to waste that good first effort by abandoning it because it wasn't a home run. Build on progress, even if it's not as much as you wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) FordBuyer has posted 798 words since I asked him to answer this question: "If Cadillac spends 3x what Lincoln spends and sells 2x as much, are they better off?" He has not answered it. As a note to the board in general, this thread will be closed once FordBuyer posts another 400 words to it. Since he won't I will attempt an answer... Cadillac is better off ONLY IF those investments pay off long term. That means today Cadillac is spending 3x as much as Lincoln, but only selling 2x as much, but in the future Cadillac begins to pull further away from Lincoln because so many people aspire to own a Cadillac. No one really knows if the current year over year gains for Cadillac will continue. Now if Cadillac can continue to grow sales at a faster rate then Lincoln then the extra money spent was a wise move. If not, then it wasn't. No one has a crystal ball so no one knows what Lincoln and Cadillac will look like 5 years down the road. I would say that a strategy somewhere in-between the two extremes makes the most sense. Ford needs to be investing more into Lincoln then they have been and GM should be reducing some investment into Cadillac. Luxury car buyers seem to be a finicky bunch so you just never know how they will react to new models down the road. Edited January 27, 2011 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Autoblog had a spy picture of an XTS mule and there seemed to be speculation if it was RWD or FWD. Some said it looked like it was based off Caprice platform. Time will tell. As for Lincoln again, the Platinum F-150 could not coexist with the Mark-LT Lincoln version. And I don't think a Titanium Taurus can coexist with an MKS whatever. If Ford wants to improve the outlook of the Lincoln doubters, then they have to tell us more. So far not much is being said at all and not even any Lincoln concepts as of late to tell us where Ford is taking Lincoln. You get the feeling that Ford is just putting out a very sketchy outline of where Lincoln is going that is not allaying any fears at all for the future of this brand. Maybe there is a real struggle going on in the inner sanctum and some like me are arguing for real change and others want to do what they have been doing that is not working. I say blow it up and start over or just put it out of its misery like Lincoln. Don't continue with same business model with $300 million top hats and 10 more hp than Ford engine. Speculation as to whether it was FWD or RWD??? Um: Motor Trend reports that Cadillac’s long search for a flagship is over. After debating a number of options, including importing a stretched Chinese-market STS, GM has decided that the “Super Epsilon”-based XTS will be the future range-topper for its luxury brand. The XTS was developed on a stretched version of the platform that underpins GM sedans including the Buick LaCrosse, Chevy Malibu and the forthcoming Buick Regal, and was shown in concept form as the XTS Platinum concept at the Detroit Auto Show. In other words, Cadillac’s range-topping flagship will be competing primarily with a $38k Ford (not to mention its Lincoln clone). Hahaha - Cadillac competing with a Ford. And that comment shows how nice the Taurus is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Speculation as to whether it was FWD or RWD??? Um: Hahaha - Cadillac competing with a Ford. And that comment shows how nice the Taurus is. I think he meant the mule, not the XTS. The guys over at GMI pretty much debunked the idea that this mule is the XTS... it's likely a mule for the upcoming ATS, or another unknown RWD Caddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I think he meant the mule, not the XTS. The guys over at GMI pretty much debunked the idea that this mule is the XTS... it's likely a mule for the upcoming ATS, or another unknown RWD Caddy. Word is a proper RWD flagship is in the works. Those spy shots don't give any indication as to the size of the car, so if it is indeed a RWD mule, it could be the ATS, the new flagship, or the next CTS. Time shall tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I think he meant the mule, not the XTS. The guys over at GMI pretty much debunked the idea that this mule is the XTS... it's likely a mule for the upcoming ATS, or another unknown RWD Caddy. Anyone have a link to these shots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Anyone have a link to these shots? Autoblog via GMI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 To me, the vehicle in that picture looks too small to be the XTS / a full size sedan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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