Ford to invest $1B to revive Lincoln

[rkisler]

Curious....how much does 1 billion buy? If Lincoln is going forward with completely unique sheet metal as noted in the release a week or two ago, does 1 billion seem like enough?

 

I can give you some idea.

 

A "typical" level of Mercury differentiation (which is similar to a minor freshening) was comprised of front end changes (grille, fascia, fenders, hood), rear changes (lamps, fascia), and interior changes (instrument panel skin, seat sew styles, colors) falls in the range from $50 million to $75 million.

 

A complete sheet metal set is substantially more expensive. When you get into the body central, all sorts of things are in play, including side impact testing, door sealing, etc. And doors themselves are expensive, particularly if the cut lines change (if the cut lines stay the same, sometimes you can get away with just skins). So just for a round house number, assume a full sheetmetal set with differentiated interior would run in the $200-$250 million or so range. And this estimate doesn't include any powertrain unique differentiation.

 

So $1 billion buys you maybe 4 unique Lincolns off of a base Ford platform.

[2005Explorer]

I can give you some idea.

 

A "typical" level of Mercury differentiation (which is similar to a minor freshening) was comprised of front end changes (grille, fascia, fenders, hood), rear changes (lamps, fascia), and interior changes (instrument panel skin, seat sew styles, colors) falls in the range from $50 million to $75 million.

 

A complete sheet metal set is substantially more expensive. When you get into the body central, all sorts of things are in play, including side impact testing, door sealing, etc. And doors themselves are expensive, particularly if the cut lines change (if the cut lines stay the same, sometimes you can get away with just skins). So just for a round house number, assume a full sheetmetal set with differentiated interior would run in the $200-$250 million or so range. And this estimate doesn't include any powertrain unique differentiation.

 

So $1 billion buys you maybe 4 unique Lincolns off of a base Ford platform.

 

Thanks for the information. I learned something new today.

[Hugh]

Exactly what is wrong with the current D30? I understand that there are more modern DOHC V6s on the market today, but for its size its pretty competitive. My Escape is a riot to drive and I would not hesitate at all to line it up at a stop light next to an Edge with the D35. Even after owning it a few months I still think "whoa you have some nuts little dude" when I punch the gas on it.

Running on one shift and on borrowed time AFAIK. Waiting for the current Fusion and Escape to pass on. I think the D35 in the Fusion is the 1st generation version (i-VCT only) and that will pass on as well.

[PREMiERdrum]

I can give you some idea.

 

A "typical" level of Mercury differentiation (which is similar to a minor freshening) was comprised of front end changes (grille, fascia, fenders, hood), rear changes (lamps, fascia), and interior changes (instrument panel skin, seat sew styles, colors) falls in the range from $50 million to $75 million.

 

A complete sheet metal set is substantially more expensive. When you get into the body central, all sorts of things are in play, including side impact testing, door sealing, etc. And doors themselves are expensive, particularly if the cut lines change (if the cut lines stay the same, sometimes you can get away with just skins). So just for a round house number, assume a full sheetmetal set with differentiated interior would run in the $200-$250 million or so range. And this estimate doesn't include any powertrain unique differentiation.

 

So $1 billion buys you maybe 4 unique Lincolns off of a base Ford platform.

 

Thanks, as always, for the excellent and informative post.

 

I'm having a difficult time extrapolating from this $1Billion figure, however, because we don't know what it includes. Is is product, like Austin detailed for us? Are marketing and advertising initiatives included in that? What about new training for the remaining dealers? Are the enhanced warranties coming out of that?

 

If what they're saying is true (100% unique sheetmetal, exclusive interiors, computer controlled suspensions, computerized PRDNL, glass roofs, etc) I don't buy for a minute that the $1Billion is all they're putting out in these "7 new or refreshed models".

Edited June 22, 2011 by PREMiERdrum

[akirby]

Was there some type of production limits on AWD's models this year?

 

Yes.

[akirby]

Thanks, as always, for the excellent and informative post.

 

I'm having a difficult time extrapolating from this $1Billion figure, however, because we don't know what it includes. Is is product, like Austin detailed for us? Are marketing and advertising initiatives included in that? What about new training for the remaining dealers? Are the enhanced warranties coming out of that?

 

If what they're saying is true (100% unique sheetmetal, exclusive interiors, computer controlled suspensions, computerized PRDNL, glass roofs, etc) I don't buy for a minute that the $1Billion is all they're putting out in these "7 new or refreshed models".

 

Most of the cost of the MKZ and MKS and possibly the MKT should have already been spent. It sounded to me like the $1B figure was from here forward which would make more sense.

[PREMiERdrum]

Most of the cost of the MKZ and MKS and possibly the MKT should have already been spent. It sounded to me like the $1B figure was from here forward which would make more sense.

 

They should have explained it better, or perhaps they did, and this particular dealer had zoned out for a bit. :reading:

[2005Explorer]

Running on one shift and on borrowed time AFAIK. Waiting for the current Fusion and Escape to pass on. I think the D35 in the Fusion is the 1st generation version (i-VCT only) and that will pass on as well.

 

I understand that the D30 will be phased out after the current Escape and Fusion are however I was just replying to Nick's post where he seemed to have the opinion that the D30 is a POS engine. I am very happy with the performance and MPG of the D30 in my Escape. It sounds like i might be one of the few left that prefers a V6 over a 4 cylinder, however it will be something I will personally miss.

[papilgee4evaeva]

But Volkswagen and Audi have proven that world-class luxury products can be made from the bones of mass-market products if correctly upgraded, with good marketing, unique styling, and premium features. I think we all know that the current Ford team is just as capable ( if not more so ) than the guys and gals at VW.

I'm a few hours late to this one, but...

 

The A3 and TT are the only Audi cars to share platforms with VWs (Jetta, Golf). Everything else Audi has is specific to Audi (save for the R8, but then that's Lamborghini).

[atvman]

 

The Taurus has been doing just fine. The only other large car that consistently outsells it these days is the fleet queen Impala.

The Charger has been beating up on it lately too.

[Anthony]

I can give you some idea.

 

A "typical" level of Mercury differentiation (which is similar to a minor freshening) was comprised of front end changes (grille, fascia, fenders, hood), rear changes (lamps, fascia), and interior changes (instrument panel skin, seat sew styles, colors) falls in the range from $50 million to $75 million.

 

A complete sheet metal set is substantially more expensive. When you get into the body central, all sorts of things are in play, including side impact testing, door sealing, etc. And doors themselves are expensive, particularly if the cut lines change (if the cut lines stay the same, sometimes you can get away with just skins). So just for a round house number, assume a full sheetmetal set with differentiated interior would run in the $200-$250 million or so range. And this estimate doesn't include any powertrain unique differentiation.

 

So $1 billion buys you maybe 4 unique Lincolns off of a base Ford platform.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write out that very informative answer!

[papilgee4evaeva]

The Charger has been beating up on it lately too.

Which reminds me, I did see a few '11 Charger police cruisers recently.

[fordmantpw]

Which reminds me, I did see a few '11 Charger police cruisers recently.

 

Were they on fire?

[silvrsvt]

The A3 and TT are the only Audi cars to share platforms with VWs (Jetta, Golf). Everything else Audi has is specific to Audi (save for the R8, but then that's Lamborghini).

 

 

This only recently....prior to 2007, there has been much in the way of platform sharing. The MLB/MLP platform is used in nearly every Audi product since then..makes you wonder how much of it is shared with VW...the same way the Fusion and Mazada 6 are related, but not the same.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_B_platform#B8

 

The Charger has been beating up on it lately too.

 

What to Police fleet sales? :lol:

[papilgee4evaeva]

Were they on fire?

Georgia's been hot, but I can assure you that no burning Charger cop cars were either a cause or an effect. :shades:

[papilgee4evaeva]

This only recently....prior to 2007, there has been much in the way of platform sharing. The MLB/MLP platform is used in nearly every Audi product since then..makes you wonder how much of it is shared with VW...the same way the Fusion and Mazada 6 are related, but not the same.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_B_platform#B8

From what I understand, MLB/MLP (Group B platform, longitudinal layout) is independent of the Passat's PQ46 and Jetta's PQ35 (Group A platform, transverse).

 

Also, the AWD systems used in each of the brands is necessarily different because of the engine layout; Audi's quattro in longitudinal cars runs full time, whereas the VW equivalent (Haldex, but branded as "quattro" in Audis) cannot.

[suv_guy_19]

The 300 isn't any better...at least from the passenger seat.

 

 

Ummm, I'm actually not sure what you're talking about. After driving a 300, I wouldn't even consider a Fusion.

Edited June 22, 2011 by suv_guy_19

[PREMiERdrum]

Ummm, I'm actually not sure what you're talking about. After driving a 300, I wouldn't even consider a Fusion.

 

Why would you be comparing a full-sized RWD sedan to a mid-sized FWD sedan in the first place? :reading:

[suv_guy_19]

The Charger has been beating up on it lately too.

 

And there is some good reason for that. The LX cars have never been bad vehicles. They've just gotten even better.

[Hugh]

I understand that the D30 will be phased out after the current Escape and Fusion are however I was just replying to Nick's post where he seemed to have the opinion that the D30 is a POS engine. I am very happy with the performance and MPG of the D30 in my Escape. It sounds like i might be one of the few left that prefers a V6 over a 4 cylinder, however it will be something I will personally miss.

I see your point. The D30 i-VCT/6A in the Escape is night/day compared to the D30/4A in the driving I have done. I was fortunate to drive all 3 powertrains in the Fusion and the D25 i-VCT/6A seemed lighter and just as powerful (Seat of pants mind you) as the D30/6A. Therefore, I didn't see the point here. The Fusion Sport felt heavy but I only have the AWD here so that may have been a factor.

[suv_guy_19]

Why would you be comparing a full-sized RWD sedan to a mid-sized FWD sedan in the first place? :reading:

 

 

I've never driven a Taurus, but I don't expect it to be much better. I will say this though - I like the way the Focus drives better than the Fusion. It's just something about it. My point was that the 300 and Charger are not POSs at at all.

Edited June 22, 2011 by suv_guy_19

[akirby]

I've never driven a Taurus, but I don't expect it to be much better.

 

Congratulations - you're qualified to write for Motor Trend!

[rmc523]

The Expedition and Navigator are long overdue for updates, and none appear to be in the pipeline, which indicates to me that they have decided to discontinue those models in the next 2 years.

We haven't seen any news on the next gen F-150 yet either, does that mean they are cancelling it? My thoughts are that the Expy/Navi development will be re-paired with the next gen F-150 and they will all launch at or near the same time.

 

I thought we heard about Navigator receiving updates in the next year or so? As Nick said, I'd expect the Expy/Navigator to go on whatever redesign/refresh cycle the F-150 is on from here on out, certainly when it comes to powertrains.

 

 

I understand what you are saying, however Ford has been really good at bringing class leading technology and features to their mainstream brand. I would hate to see features held back and Fords decontented just to make Lincoln look better.

 

 

 

It is unacceptable to detune Fords just to make Lincolns look more powerful. You might have the cash to buy Lincoln vehicles, but I don't.

 

They're not going to limit Fords. In Fusion's case, most mainstream FWD midsize sedans are going the 4-cylinder only route. I'm sure at least some sort of available 4 cylinder engine will rival the current V6's power/performance output.

 

As was said, we aren't talking current tech. We're talking cutting edge stuff that other luxury automakers are now just starting to introduce. Things that we wouldn't have ordinarily seen in any vehicles, let alone mainstream ones. There has always been technology that is limited to luxury brands. It will always be that way. Does it trickle down? Yes. But the reason these things start on luxury cars is that in a lot of cases, it ain't cheap!

 

I don't think it's a matter of artificially doing anything. I see the luxury and non-luxury markets divergin on their own. Look at Hyundai. There's no V6 in the Sonata. Word is the next gen Malibu will not offer one either. I'd say there's a good chance the Fusion will not offer one either. Not because Ford will be trying to artificially separate Lincoln from Ford, but because they might feel people shopping for Fords aren't going to be interested in a V6 in the Fusion anymore.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to maybe see a V6 offered in a Sport or "SHO" model of the Fusion, either, unless they go the Eco-4 route maybe?.

[2005Explorer]

I see your point. The D30 i-VCT/6A in the Escape is night/day compared to the D30/4A in the driving I have done. I was fortunate to drive all 3 powertrains in the Fusion and the D25 i-VCT/6A seemed lighter and just as powerful (Seat of pants mind you) as the D30/6A. Therefore, I didn't see the point here. The Fusion Sport felt heavy but I only have the AWD here so that may have been a factor.

 

I believe the Fusion and Escape are just about the same weight, however the Escape probably has more resistance out on the road which takes a little more power. I have recently driven a 2010 4WD with the D25 and maybe I'm just dreaming, but the D30 in mine felt a lot more powerful especially off the line and in passing response. Since it sounds like V6s might only be reserved for Lincoln in small and midsized cars and utilities I hope the EcoBoost will prove to be a worthy replacement without a lot of additional cost. I think the 2.0 EcoBoost might be acceptable in the Fusion and Escape, but anything smaller is going to struggle with a load in hilly terrain.

[Hugh]

I believe the Fusion and Escape are just about the same weight, however the Escape probably has more resistance out on the road which takes a little more power. I have recently driven a 2010 4WD with the D25 and maybe I'm just dreaming, but the D30 in mine felt a lot more powerful especially off the line and in passing response. Since it sounds like V6s might only be reserved for Lincoln in small and midsized cars and utilities I hope the EcoBoost will prove to be a worthy replacement without a lot of additional cost. I think the 2.0 EcoBoost might be acceptable in the Fusion and Escape, but anything smaller is going to struggle with a load in hilly terrain.

Perhaps you're right, I didn't notice the difference in the Fusion but Escape definitely. As it is, there is a 2.7L V6 mentioned more then once. Barb S. Head of Powertrain has mentioned it a couple of years ago. I can see it in a Lincoln. I feel the D25 may be on borrowed time as well however Ti-VCT and DI can add life to it. I also feel EB20 can resolve the power issue because of it's flat, steady torque curve even under load in hilly terrain. It should be available in the 2013 Escape and Fusion.