Biker16 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Think long term, the goal of IUAW is to organize Transplants. only then can the UAW increase wages without risking put management out of business. Why was pattern bargining started? to make sure that no automaker has an unfair advantage over any other automaker, right now Non union Shops are setting the price floor for the industry and placing Union shops in a less competitive position. this is much bigger than Ford this is about the Union movement in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twmalonehunter Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Was? As I noted in DC Car Examiner's "Compact Sedan Comparison Test" thread, these are just a few current examples of what personnel at one of the plants mentioned in the original post apparently deem acceptable "quality" for their finished product. billy That's really a shame, I love Ford and will probably never buy another brand, but that's just embarrassing. Thankfully, my 2012 Focus has been pretty much perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 That's really a shame, I love Ford and will probably never buy another brand, but that's just embarrassing. Thankfully, my 2012 Focus has been pretty much perfect. makes me scratch my head...but heres another angle...a lot of dealers install security systems on their vehicles, and the das trim opieces are EXACTLY the ones they remove to run wiring......and I STILL query that the door wasnt fully closed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Excerpt from tonight's Free Press story on Ford UAW contract: As workers continue voting on the UAW’s tentative agreement with Ford, leaders of a local union in Kansas City entered a raging Facebook debate on the risks of rejecting the four-year deal. So far, a razor-thin majority of 50.2% of production workers have voted yes, while 50.6% of skilled trades workers are voting no, with four plants reporting, according to a UAW post on the Facebook page it created for members to express their opinions. Voting will continue through Oct. 18. This afternoon, a posting attributed to UAW Local 249 at Ford’s Kansas City assembly plant issued a stern warning to workers who are opposing the contract for a variety of reasons. “All of us are angry at the greed of Ford executives who took multimillion-dollar bonuses while UAW members gave concessions, but we still have to look at what’s best for all of us…over the long run. All of us would like to get back concessions we gave Ford… when it looked like the American auto industry might go under, but wanting is one thing and getting is another. “None of this is to tell people how to vote, but it’s our job to explain clearly what the possible consequences of a no vote really are. Too many lives are counting on the outcome. House payments. Car payments. Christmas presents. “A no vote will lead to a strike. How long will it last ? How will it be resolved ? Will the next contract be better or worse ? Nobody knows.” Jeff Wright, president of Local 249, said he didn’t write the message, but he was aware of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Going nuts about vague option packages with estimated values, long term vesting, etc., obscures the issue. Money does not buy happiness, and--therefore--more money does not buy more happiness. Pioneer: You grouch about 12 hour shifts and 2 hour commutes. Do you think Mulally is at the office less than 12 hours most days? And you can grouch about the company paying his airfare back to Seattle on the weekends, but where's he at commute-wise vs. you? Same area pretty much. Your family gripes about you missing their activities. You think Alan's wife is happy to have him two time zones and 2,000 miles away 5 days a week? I'm not saying that Mulally's pay package is justified; far from it, but it's the going rate for CEOs these days. You want a good CEO, you pay through the nose for one. At least Mulally's doing more to earn his pay than Alex Rodriguez, who (AFAIK) is making roughly the same amount of money in CASH as Mulally made in stock options last year. Bellyaching about Mulally's pay makes no sense. His pay, in options, can't fund a dime's worth of anything for the UAW, except pensions, and the Feds won't let you fund pensions with options (IIRC), so his pay isn't even comparable to yours. Another thing: Back when the unions 'had it good', union management was rotten to the core. The bottom line is that if you're the low man on the totem pole, you're going to get hosed. If management isn't screwing you over, the mob is stealing your union dues; might as well stop kvetching and deal with it. I mean seriously, if your chief complaint about this contract is that the rich get richer, well dagnabbit, why are you protesting NOW? Where have you been the last 5,000 years? Rich been getting richer since the beginning of civilization. Edited October 13, 2011 by RichardJensen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Excuses Ford UAW production members use to justify a big raise that GM workers didn't get: Ford makes me park my non Ford product in outlying lot with no shuttle service Filthy bathrooms haven't been cleaned in 10 years Nearest party store is too far away considering we only get 15 minute break Mulally makes too much money Ford is already talking about paying a dividend after not paying one for 6 years and counting White collar got merit raises after working 60 hour workweeks without overtime pay for years and years Ford closes plants and expects us to transfer to other state in order to keep our job More plants will close if we don't pass this agreement meaning more moving to other states Ford is making too much money after losing much more preceding their short term success as of late If Ford does poorly it's dumb management and if they are doing well it's the hard working UAW members $1,500 allowance in lieu of COLA won't cover a yearly 1-2% increase in cost of living We don't care if we stick Ford with even higher labor costs than our competition...that's their problem, not ours Third shifts means less or no overtime pay...who cares about bringing in new blood We don't like or believe in our leadership even though we voted for them We don't count A plan as perk since we don't buy Ford products anyway and prefer the long walks Finally, we just want to screw our leadership and more importantly the hand that feeds us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Good post there RJ. Pioneer, there are positives and negatives to every job. I feel you on the long hours. I drive 8 hours into California every Sunday and then work 12 hour days through the week only to make the 8 hour drive back to Oregon on Friday night.... I don't get paid for those 16 hours traveling. But ya know what, its worth it. I can't get a better job then that til i graduate. If i decide i hate the drive that much i'll quit and deal with the lower pay. :shrug: I don't like it but hey it comes with the territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Good post there RJ. Pioneer, there are positives and negatives to every job. I feel you on the long hours. I drive 8 hours into California every Sunday and then work 12 hour days through the week only to make the 8 hour drive back to Oregon on Friday night.... I don't get paid for those 16 hours traveling. But ya know what, its worth it. I can't get a better job then that til i graduate. If i decide i hate the drive that much i'll quit and deal with the lower pay. :shrug: I don't like it but hey it comes with the territory. Hell, I' have two friggin' degrees and still have to work 9, 10, 12, 14 hour days with no overtime pay. Two days a week I cover both the WBNS and ONN assignment desks by myself: I'm lucky to get a chance to pee, let alone eat! But you know what? It's the business, and I wouldn't give it up for anything. True story: Last November, we had a crazy incident where a mother, her friend, and her son were murdered in their home and her teen daughter was missing. The girl was found locked in some creep's basement a few days later, obviously having been sexually abused. The bodies of the 2 women and the boy (along with the family dog) were found one week later hidden deep inside a 40' tall hollowed-out tree in a dense forest. I was on the desk the night they were reported missing, worked 3pm-6am, and for the next week worked from 2pm until at least 5am, culminating in the 22 hour shift I worked the day the bodies were found. And my check that week was the same amount it always is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Sadly, the greatest myth perpetuated by blue collar workers is the vision that senior managers do not work as hard as them and are paid far more than they are worth.... It has been my experience that as people go higher in companies, managers and technical leaders are expected to do far more duties than their original job scopes envisage, usually with copious amounts of unpaid overtime, stress and health problems thrown in for free... Edited October 13, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 ... and ONN assignment desks... Onion News Network? (J/K, I already looked it up) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Onion News Network? (J/K, I already looked it up) We predate that ONN by 10 years. :shades: So if you're ever in Ohio, and need a weather forecast every 10 minutes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 managers and technical leaders are expected to do far more duties than their original job scopes envisage That's why I'm self-employed. If anyone's going to make me work without compensation, it's going to be me! To get promoted you need to stand out, often by doing more than what your job entails, all that extra work being, in effect, uncompensated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 makes me scratch my head...but heres another angle...a lot of dealers install security systems on their vehicles, and the das trim opieces are EXACTLY the ones they remove to run wiring......and I STILL query that the door wasnt fully closed.... Yup, shouldn't have made it out of the factory yard like that. But why the dealer's pre-delivery inspection didn't get the door re-hung . . . jeez, looeez the customer spent how much? It used to be a lot worse, though. Back in the early 50's, the assembly quality of Ford convertibles was somewhat dodgy. Anyway, the warranty claims on the sleds sold in Canada were enough that Ford organized shipping all convertibles for the Canuck market to one Toronto dealership, Lawrence Motors (long gone). They took 'em apart and put 'em back together as necessary, then shipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 That's why I'm self-employed. If anyone's going to make me work without compensation, it's going to be me! To get promoted you need to stand out, often by doing more than what your job entails, all that extra work being, in effect, uncompensated. Which is why I don't understand the sour grapes from a few in the UAW towards white collar workers getting back bonuses at least UAW members were paid for any overtime worked......salaried people worked unpaid overtime for years and in my books that is probably psychologically and financially worse than the lost compensations the UAW often complains about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBang Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The irony of it all....MAP of all places....home tof the 2012 Focus where a properly aligned hood is hard to find and is shipped anyway. To hell with the customer....I want mine and screw you. Also home to where every third car in MAP and Wayne Stamping plant employee parking lot is a non Ford vehicle. Current Drives: 2002 Matador Red Ford Taurus SES Sport 2001 Orient Red Metallic Porsche Boxster Home of the $28,000 2012 Ford Focus Titanium that passed through quality control with a loose LH taillamp which you could run your finger under between the lamp and the quarter panel because they did not bother to put any of the attaching grommets in place that hold the studs on the back of the taillamps secure. It's not just one car... When we took the car back to the dealer for repair they said it was not the first one with this exact problem... Also the ambient lighting fixture under the driver's side dash was left with a broken wiring harness connector that was supposed to be plugged into it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Home of the $28,000 2012 Ford Focus Titanium that passed through quality control with a loose LH taillamp which you could run your finger under between the lamp and the quarter panel because they did not bother to put any of the attaching grommets in place that hold the studs on the back of the taillamps secure. It's not just one car... When we took the car back to the dealer for repair they said it was not the first one with this exact problem... Also the ambient lighting fixture under the driver's side dash was left with a broken wiring harness connector that was supposed to be plugged into it. Another reason for me to buy a Fiesta.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goinbroke2 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 How many hours do I work....well this section had 7 people in it 5 years ago, then 5, then 3 then there was just my boss and me and then he went to Afghanistan a little over a year ago and I'm still by myself. I average 9hr's a day at work, but I have the duty phone on me at ALL time 24/7/365 during vacations/holidays/etc. The wife figured it out that since I work salary, I average about $1.00 an hour. I'm not in it for the money obviously. I am getting burned out though. If I take a day off or am sick etc, then that days work piles up on my desk for me when I come back. The comment about the higher you go the more responsibility and more hours is dead on. Before, if they can't contact me by phone,(or if they did, say I'm loaded) then they would go to the next guy on the list. Now, I'M the guy making phone calls and trying to find somebody to do a job. Anyway, we all have our reasons to bitch. Mulally probably worry's about his marriage, being gone 5 days a week with no end in sight. Guaranteed paycheck is a strong incentive nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 How many hours do I work....well this section had 7 people in it 5 years ago, then 5, then 3 then there was just my boss and me and then he went to Afghanistan a little over a year ago and I'm still by myself. I average 9hr's a day at work, but I have the duty phone on me at ALL time 24/7/365 during vacations/holidays/etc. The wife figured it out that since I work salary, I average about $1.00 an hour. I'm not in it for the money obviously. I am getting burned out though. If I take a day off or am sick etc, then that days work piles up on my desk for me when I come back. The comment about the higher you go the more responsibility and more hours is dead on. Before, if they can't contact me by phone,(or if they did, say I'm loaded) then they would go to the next guy on the list. Now, I'M the guy making phone calls and trying to find somebody to do a job. Anyway, we all have our reasons to bitch. Mulally probably worry's about his marriage, being gone 5 days a week with no end in sight. Guaranteed paycheck is a strong incentive nowadays. Yeah plus clients appreciate it when they see you going the extra mile to help them out and while sleeping with your phone is a bit unreasonable, I still believe that making ' yourself available when needed is what great service is all about...and should be rewarded. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DearbornDerek Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Holy crap PREMiERdrum.....I think spacedude is the perfect guy for one of your crews to interview.....lol true story.... guy told me he was voting no... I asked why? "its a shitty contract" whats shitty about it? "its a shitty contract" So you have no idea WHY its a shitty contract??? "its a shitty contract"..... HOLY CRAP...everyone can have an opinion on what to vote, but god damn at least KNOW why your voting what your voting.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Pioneer: You grouch about 12 hour shifts and 2 hour commutes. Hell I took a job 3 states away and had a 2 hour drive to get to it up until recently. Why did I take the job? Well I was out of work for almost 2 months and there was a nice pay increase. I drove 2-3 days back and forth, then I found a room rental till I relocated down here last Month. I also needed a fresh start in my life and so far everything is working out great...I go from having no job to buying a new house thats 2-3x the size of my condo I had in NJ...all with cheaper costs of living in MD....esp in property taxes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ask the military troop how many hours they are on the clock/day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Holy crap PREMiERdrum.....I think spacedude is the perfect guy for one of your crews to interview.....lol true story.... guy told me he was voting no... I asked why? "its a shitty contract" whats shitty about it? "its a shitty contract" So you have no idea WHY its a shitty contract??? "its a shitty contract"..... HOLY CRAP...everyone can have an opinion on what to vote, but god damn at least KNOW why your voting what your voting.... UAW members have often been accused of NOT seeing the the big picture, and there are good reasons for this observation. Being overly self-centered is certainly part of the problem. Ford Motor Company is a little more than just the guy on the liine. Basing any future raises on Ford's profit performance is a real good idea since it forces them to look at Ford's financial performance whether they want to or not. Just as guaranteed contracts with professional athletes is bullshit, guaranteed raises with UAW production members is bullshit also. Then we get poorly put together vehicles like the 2012 Focus. It's not the dealers job to reassemble the vehicle after it's shipped. Inexcusable to ship vehicles with fit and finish problems. Someone at MAP doesn't give a shit and I'm sure that it's more than a few UAW members. You would think these vehicles at plant would be marked as defective on line and shipped to repair area and not get shipped OK until repaired to certain standards. It looks like no on cares on line, repair area, and final shipping decision. Problem doesn't seem to be improving either since I observed latest shipment of Focus at Bill Brown and almost everyone has misaligned hood. And that is over 70 vehicles. Inexcusable and MAP workers should think about returning some of their paycheck to Ford for lousy quality control standards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 UAW members have often been accused of NOT seeing the the big picture, and there are good reasons for this observation. Being overly self-centered is certainly part of the problem. Ford Motor Company is a little more than just the guy on the liine. Basing any future raises on Ford's profit performance is a real good idea since it forces them to look at Ford's financial performance whether they want to or not. Just as guaranteed contracts with professional athletes is bullshit, guaranteed raises with UAW production members is bullshit also. Then we get poorly put together vehicles like the 2012 Focus. It's not the dealers job to reassemble the vehicle after it's shipped. Inexcusable to ship vehicles with fit and finish problems. Someone at MAP doesn't give a shit and I'm sure that it's more than a few UAW members. You would think these vehicles at plant would be marked as defective on line and shipped to repair area and not get shipped OK until repaired to certain standards. It looks like no on cares on line, repair area, and final shipping decision. Problem doesn't seem to be improving either since I observed latest shipment of Focus at Bill Brown and almost everyone has misaligned hood. And that is over 70 vehicles. Inexcusable and MAP workers should think about returning some of their paycheck to Ford for lousy quality control standards. Agree... The poor quality of the Focus is inexcusable. Any company that has a union labor force is like asking the prosecutor to help the defendant during a court trial. It will be interesting to see if the UAW votes down any of the proposed contracts. King: A better Ford deal unlikely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Going nuts about vague option packages with estimated values, long term vesting, etc., obscures the issue. Money does not buy happiness, and--therefore--more money does not buy more happiness. Pioneer: You grouch about 12 hour shifts and 2 hour commutes. Do you think Mulally is at the office less than 12 hours most days? And you can grouch about the company paying his airfare back to Seattle on the weekends, but where's he at commute-wise vs. you? Same area pretty much. Your family gripes about you missing their activities. You think Alan's wife is happy to have him two time zones and 2,000 miles away 5 days a week? I'm not saying that Mulally's pay package is justified; far from it, but it's the going rate for CEOs these days. You want a good CEO, you pay through the nose for one. At least Mulally's doing more to earn his pay than Alex Rodriguez, who (AFAIK) is making roughly the same amount of money in CASH as Mulally made in stock options last year. Bellyaching about Mulally's pay makes no sense. His pay, in options, can't fund a dime's worth of anything for the UAW, except pensions, and the Feds won't let you fund pensions with options (IIRC), so his pay isn't even comparable to yours. Another thing: Back when the unions 'had it good', union management was rotten to the core. The bottom line is that if you're the low man on the totem pole, you're going to get hosed. If management isn't screwing you over, the mob is stealing your union dues; might as well stop kvetching and deal with it. I mean seriously, if your chief complaint about this contract is that the rich get richer, well dagnabbit, why are you protesting NOW? Where have you been the last 5,000 years? Rich been getting richer since the beginning of civilization. You are taking my post too literally. I am not complaining about everything I wrote. I was giving examples of what everybody is pissed about. Everybody here thinks it's about raises and COLA, and it's not. The only gripe I have is with the excessive executive pay. I voted "yes", btw. But it still wont pass. this is my last post on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 if ford loses any money its their fault not the unions or the competitors. i see bad decisions made all day that cost our plant alone thousands a day. ford didnt lose billions. they made it look like they did. its all in the value of their stock. thats how these companies are valued. assets and debt. they spend billion over seas on infrastructure. net lose there. but once that structure is up and running it masses buillions. nutshell.......they spend 50 billion building structures in china. then they get it all apraised and find out it appraises for far less than they invested. hence the loss. yet they have a completely functioning infrastructure in china now. so now they use that appraised loss to restructure the loans and such. and ford comes out ahead. and yep its a shell game. all large companies in this world plays game like this....ITS ALL ABOUT THE STOCK PRICE. If you actually believe this babbling bullshit, then you're an idiot. And I'm telling you that as the son of a Local 600 retiree and as a former Local 600 member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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