RichardJensen Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 That plan failed remember and Ford lost tons of money. Not exactly. Ford rebuilt a profitable NA operation on vehicles that were more or less NA exclusive (Fusion, C170 Focus, Edge, Taurus, F150, Mustang, etc.) Now I'm not saying that Ford should continue to use NA exclusive platforms, but it's best to change the narrative when it disagrees with the facts. The facts show that Ford went from losing money hand over fist on NA exclusive platforms to making money hand over fist on NA platforms. The conclusion to draw from that, clearly, is that the platform isn't the major driver of profitability. If this were still an engineering driven industry, that might be the case, but this is a customer driven industry, and the vehicle that best meets the broadest base of customers will be most successful, regardless of where it's engineered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) So if the Mondeo/Fusion is designed for Europe it's an abomination of a car, but if it's designed for NA it'll be great? Ay Caramba! I'm sure there will still be many differences between models - suspension tunes, gear ratios, de-contented interior for anywhere out of U.S. etc... If decisions are made that prioritize the EU market over the NA market, One Ford is just a cover story for the colonization of NA with EU vehicles. Fusion volume is 3x that of the Mondeo. There is no reason on earth for prioritizing a smaller market. what things like the PowerShift actually mean for them What does Powershift mean? Class leading fuel economy? No. So, then, what's the point? Unlike EB which is more or less invisible to all consumers, Powershift imposes itself quite clearly into the driving experience of customers used to conventional automatics and it does not deliver a single marketable advantage. And if you ever find yourself saying, "But the customers don't understand..." Well, you've already lost. Now that's just being arrogant AND paranoid. Why? FNA drives the profit of Ford's global operations. When I see decisions made without proper deference to American customers, I've got reason to question the decision making process (note that this isn't about engineers. The engineers could be in Cologne, Broadmeadows, or at the bottom of the ocean on a submarine. It's about customers). Yeah Ford, make a Camry fighter - screw the much more desirable Passat! Passat is not in the Firefox spellchecker, Camry is. That should tell you all you need to know about those two vehicles. Edited October 31, 2011 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 People, people, people. Ford cannot keep trying to design cars for you old folks, or design a differenct car for NA because we think we are special from the rest of the world. That plan failed remember and Ford lost tons of money. Ford has to chase the younger buyer, and that buyer wants sleek and technical. The existing Escape would never have sold in Europe and you all know. Hell, I'm 45 and I want the new IPHONE not a phone designed 10 years ago. And it is the same with cars. The new Escape will be great once the wraps are off and it gets the full Ford treatment. Of course the concept is better, but they always are. Good job Ford and keep up the good work. I cant wait to see the new Fusion and MKZ. And the new CAFE regs coming demand sleek and technical if you are to meet them. One could say Chrysler is the one making vehicles Americans love, but those vehicles don't come close to meeting new CAFE regs as Ford is much closer to that federally mandated criteria and Chrysler is so far away. So there are lots of reasons why Ford has to pull off this One Ford Global strategy like it or not. As much as present Escape is loved, that bread box design/slug aerodynamics or present fuel mileage doesn't cut it as to where the competition is going. I would imagine the new Escape will get over 32mpg highway. I'm expecting 33-34mpg. So new Fusion fuel mileage will be close to present Focus and new Escape will be close to present Fusion in fuel efficiency. As customers demand ever increasing fuel mileage and creature comforts, that will come with much bigger price tag. Time for Ford to slot new vehicle under the Fiesta as sticker prices keep escalating and develop new vehicles off of Fiesta platform. I would hope that Ford still sees themselves as afFORDable brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) People, people, people. Ford cannot keep trying to design cars for you old folks, or design a differenct car for NA because we think we are special from the rest of the world. But, we are "special" from the rest of the world! Like Richard says, it's about the customers. It doesn't matter WHY the customer wants what they want...you give it to them. Are you seriously arguing Ford should stop building vehicles with features, designs and powertrains that Americans want because we need to be taught a lesson to not be so insular? Give me a break. It may seem petty and spiteful (and perhaps stupid), but if the next Fusion has aggravating Euro-driven type features (yes, like central locking), I won't be buying another Fusion (or MKZ). You might think that's dumb, but remember, it's my money in my checking account. Ford would do well to keep in mind that it needs to sell cars that the most people want to buy...not cars just because other people like them. I couldn't give one shit what they do in Europe. Know why? Because I don't live in Europe and I don't drive in Europe. If they want to do a FoE design, I don't care--but it has to be a car that *I* want. As for the Camry, I'll never buy one. Or an Accord. Never ever. Maybe the warranty and quality issues are a concern---but Chrysler is pushing hard and in my view, the 200 has an appealing combination of value and features (but it's design leaves something to be desired--it's pretty boring). Edit: And for me, fuel economy is nice, but hardly an do-or-die factor. Virtually every car in the class has MPG w/in 3-4 of each other. Good enough for me because the features/power/etc are more important. Edited October 31, 2011 by BrewfanGRB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) When it comes to Mondeo-Fusion, I'm a believer in common platforms, maybe even the same top hats but when it comes to finer points like certain switch gear, the placement there of and things like say optional Auto transmission and maybe small capacity V6 engine for smoothness, I think the US has a valid case for exploring these particular options, especially since gasoline prices and vehicle decisions in the US are a lot different to Europe. I think a lot of regional change should be possible in a common vehicle, it's the least that Ford should be doing to exploit existing strength in the market. You cannot remake FNA as just a cut and paste version of FoE plus a few regional vehicles, that won't work. The whole showroom has to reflect the needs of buyers in the respective markets and those expectations still vary widely from Europe to the USA to Asia/Australia, the one vehicle cannot do everywhere without regional changes. Edited October 31, 2011 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fou_bleu Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 If decisions are made that prioritize the EU market over the NA market, One Ford is just a cover story for the colonization of NA with EU vehicles. Fusion volume is 3x that of the Mondeo. There is no reason on earth for prioritizing a smaller market. Not sure if you're aware, but the Mondeo is sold in Europe AND Asia - including the worlds biggest market, China. So is the Fusion really bigger than the Mondeo in terms of 'targetable' market size? What does Powershift mean? Class leading fuel economy? No. So, then, what's the point? Unlike EB which is more or less invisible to all consumers, Powershift imposes itself quite clearly into the driving experience of customers used to conventional automatics and it does not deliver a single marketable advantage. And if you ever find yourself saying, "But the customers don't understand..." Well, you've already lost. Umm, that link demonstrates Ford learning about their buyers wants, not prospective buyers being educated about Ford technologies and how they can benefit them. We're not discussing whether PowerShift or EcoBoost actually work, we're discussing the consumers knowledge on why the technologies were developed and what it means to them - they reason they would buy a Ford over a Toyota or Chevrolet. Why? FNA drives the profit of Ford's global operations. When I see decisions made without proper deference to American customers, I've got reason to question the decision making process (note that this isn't about engineers. The engineers could be in Cologne, Broadmeadows, or at the bottom of the ocean on a submarine. It's about customers). So did the Ranger, Falcon and Territory as well as the current Mondeo and Kuga need to be run by U.S. customers first? Also, by that logic, Ford should just give up and back out of Europe and Asia as they don't make the same profits as Ford NA? (Also, please do provide reports stating NA makes reasonably larger profits than the ROW) Passat is not in the Firefox spellchecker, Camry is. That should tell you all you need to know about those two vehicles. Really? I mean, neither are in the Oxford Dictionary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Also, please do provide reports stating NA makes reasonably larger profits than the ROW 2011 Q3 North America: In the third quarter, North America reported a pre-tax operating profit of $1.6 billion, South America: In the third quarter, South America reported a pre-tax operating profit of $276 million, Europe: In the third quarter, Europe reported a pre-tax operating loss of $306 million, Asia Pacific Africa: In the third quarter, Asia Pacific Africa reported a pre-tax operating loss of $43 million, Other Automotive: In the third quarter, Ford reported a loss of $138 million 2011 Q2 North America: In the second quarter, North America reported a pre-tax operating profit of $1.9 billion, South America: In the second quarter, South America reported a pre-tax operating profit of $267 million, Europe: In the second quarter, Europe reported a pre-tax operating profit of $176 million, Asia Pacific Africa: In the second quarter, Asia Pacific Africa reported a pre-tax operating profit of $1 million, 2011 Q1 North America: In the first quarter, North America reported a pre-tax operating profit of $1.8 billion, South America: In the first quarter, South America reported a pre-tax operating profit of $210 million, Europe: In the first quarter, Europe reported a pre-tax operating profit of $293 million, Asia Pacific Africa: In the first quarter, Asia Pacific Africa reported a pre-tax operating profit of $33 million, Edited October 31, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Admittedly, NA profits are driven by high volumes on very profitable products like the F-150 and now Explorer and Edge...less so on the cheaper stuff competing in highly competitive markets. I don't think anybody here can dispute the benefits and idealism of having "One Ford", but the problem is that you have profitable automakers who are tailoring their products to the market. While Ford is ditching deep regionalization, VW is opening plants in the US producing US-only vehicles. Not to mention Toyota and Honda are still tailoring their products to our markets. Now GM is also taking nearly the identical path as Ford, but they are doing it with a NA centric voice, so the Malibu is clearly a US product that has been launched globally. The Cruze vs Focus is more complicated, the Cruze is a much better US market vehicle than the Focus, but the Focus is a better global product and sells in much higher volume overall....but I don't like that Ford is essentially forsaking the US customer for distinctly European (not global) interests. I think Ford may have just gotten a little too greedy and forgetful. But part of me just wants Ford to make a good product and be very authoritarian about it, show confidence and panache and the customers will be convinced with enough dedication from Ford and accolades from happy customers and journalists...but the Focus clearly isn't that anyway so pfh! As for the Escape, I still think it's an awesome looking vehicle and I don't believe that's an issue in the slightest. But like everything else we've seen lately...design is far from the whole story at Ford and we have to wait for the real-world analysis. Edited October 31, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 The Cruze vs Focus is more complicated, the Cruze is a much better US market vehicle than the Focus, but the Focus is a better global product and sells in much higher volume overall....but I don't like that Ford is essentially forsaking the US customer for distinctly European (not global) interests. Lets see where Focus sales are at in North America this time next year when its been on the market as long as the Cruze...the Cruze has been on the market much longer then the Focus and the Focus has had production issues to say the least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Lets see where Focus sales are at in North America this time next year when its been on the market as long as the Cruze...the Cruze has been on the market much longer then the Focus and the Focus has had production issues to say the least... There's a Cruze hatchback on the way too, also a diesel version in the pieline as well..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6t5frlane Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 That is very Underwhelming to say the least..................yuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 That is very Underwhelming to say the least..................yuk I know, there's no accounting for taste but hey the thing is selling well and it's made in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 People, people, people. Ford cannot keep trying to design cars for you old folks, or design a differenct car for NA because we think we are special from the rest of the world. That plan failed remember and Ford lost tons of money. Ford has to chase the younger buyer, and that buyer wants sleek and technical. The existing Escape would never have sold in Europe and you all know. Hell, I'm 45 and I want the new IPHONE not a phone designed 10 years ago. And it is the same with cars. The new Escape will be great once the wraps are off and it gets the full Ford treatment. Of course the concept is better, but they always are. Good job Ford and keep up the good work. I cant wait to see the new Fusion and MKZ. They did sell the Escape in Europe as the Maverick. It only lasted 4 model years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 New Escape is a Kuga oh noooooooooooooooo000000000 Ford Sales January to September YTD Ford of Europe ( European Population 832 million) Ford Kuga 51,300 Sales Ford of USA (USA Population 307 million) Ford Escape 187,850 Sales You to can enjoy FOE losses instead of profits, static economies as nobody has the desire to buy small SUVs anymore, the way to go? Care to look up how well the "Maverick" sold in in Europe? No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Not sure if you're aware, but the Mondeo is sold in Europe AND Asia - including the worlds biggest market, China. So is the Fusion really bigger than the Mondeo in terms of 'targetable' market size? Umm, that link demonstrates Ford learning about their buyers wants, not prospective buyers being educated about Ford technologies and how they can benefit them. We're not discussing whether PowerShift or EcoBoost actually work, we're discussing the consumers knowledge on why the technologies were developed and what it means to them - they reason they would buy a Ford over a Toyota or Chevrolet. The reason behind the DCT is pretty simple.........The regular Cruze gets 23mpg city and the Focus with DCT gets 27mpg. FOUR mpg is very significant. As far as educating the public to DCT, every customer had the opportunity to test drive a new Focus at dealer and see if DCT was for them. For a compact like the Focus, city mileage is even more important than highway mileage. With the internet, there is no good reason why consumers can't research the vehicle they are interested in and find out its strengths and weaknesses. It always amazes me how people will just piss away $25,000 on a new vehicle they no little about except it "looks nice." Any prosepective Focus customer should have driven a DCTthoroughly before signing on the dotted line. As for central locking, I have it on my Porsche and it doesn't bother me at all. Not a deal breaker in the least. Not everything the Europeans do is bad. You can also bet the European Ford's will be known for good handling and fun to drive quotient. It will also mean more hatches and possibly small wagons. It also means the Focus and Fiesta ST. Maybe a FusionST with over 300hp. I'd like to see Ford start attracting different kinds of buyers for a change. I certainly have seen it already with new Explorer. Keep it AfFORDable, but attract customers that appreciate a new kind of Ford that fits the enthusiasts creed a little better. A mere few years ago, who would have thought a Mustang could take on a BMW M on a road course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Look at Focus, even without all the economy aids, it still gets close to 40 mph highway with the punch of a 2.0 DI engine. with Cruze, you have to buy a special 1.4 DI Turbo engine to get that...or put up with the lack luster 1.8 I-4... Edited October 31, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Not sure if you're aware, but the Mondeo is sold in Europe AND Asia - including the worlds biggest market, China. So is the Fusion really bigger than the Mondeo in terms of 'targetable' market size? What are Ford's profits from China again? prospective buyers being educated "It's the customers' fault! They don't understand what this is!" Blaming the customers means you've failed. So did the Ranger, Falcon and Territory as well as the current Mondeo and Kuga need to be run by U.S. customers first? If they're going to be sold here, yes. And JPD has already provided the results you requested. NA profits consistently exceed all other reporting groups. Not to mention that Ford's NA volume and NA market share are the highest of any business unit. Ford has over 15% of the NA market and only about 8% of the EU market. If it is going to be sold here, it needs to address the wants of customers here. (IMO, US customers are coddled to their own detriment in terms of food, entertainment, etc., but regardless, you can't earn your keep in this market by giving customers what you think they want, or something they don't understand that is 'good for them'). Edited October 31, 2011 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) And JPD has already provided the results you requested. NA profits consistently exceed all other reporting groups. Not to mention that Ford's NA volume and NA market share are the highest of any business unit. Ford has over 15% of the NA market and only about 8% of the EU market. If it is going to be sold here, it needs to address the wants of customers here. (IMO, US customers are coddled to their own detriment in terms of food, entertainment, etc., but regardless, you can't earn your keep in this market by giving customers what you think they want, or something they don't understand that is 'good for them'). This is why I feel it's vital for Ford to offer a true auto trans on key products, US buyers expect that, the DSG Powershift is something that fills in for an auto but it's definitely different and that could be enough to dissuade buyers away from products. I hope FNA are smart enough not to swallow everything coming from FoE, it's in their interest to listen to US customers... Edited October 31, 2011 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'm not a fan of the reverse sloped glass in the quarter windows. I don't like it. It's trite. Everybody is doing it, and some (Nissan & Toyota) have been doing it for 5 years or more (Murano, Matrix). I mean when you're going to use the same design cue everyone else is using, it should at least be moderately current, not yesterday's leftovers. My wife's 2006 BMW X3 has that horrible design cue - 5 years old! And BMW chiseled it from the Japanese. I hate the look as well - agree 100% with RJ - yesterday's leftovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 This is why I feel it's vital for Ford to offer a true auto trans on key products, US buyers expect that, the DSG Powershift is something that fills in for an auto but it's definitely different and that could be enough to dissuade buyers away from products. I hope FNA are smart enough not to swallow everything coming from FoE, it's in their interest to listen to US customers... Uh, if you remember correctly, the Fiesta and Focus are offered with 5 speed manuals as standard. The Escape and Fusion SE and SEL come standard with 6 speed autos. That will not change. The only change will probably be that new Escape and Fusion come with Powershift as option and/or with specific packages. The Powershift is here to stay and in future will probably replace manuals altogether. Manuals by and large have been replaced by sequential shifters and auto blippers on race course and DCT will replace manuals in civilian fleet also. In the next few years, the only manuals will be on used car lots and offered by private sellers only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 . In the next few years, the only manuals will be on used car lots and offered by private sellers only. In most cars, that's already the case. Most of the cars that still offer manuals now, very likely will in the future as well. I don't see a day anytime soon where you can't buy a manual in something like the Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) My wife's 2006 BMW X3 has that horrible design cue - 5 years old! And BMW chiseled it from the Japanese. I hate the look as well - agree 100% with RJ - yesterday's leftovers. There are three designs to choose from, all now derivative but the tip-up is the most "trite". 1.)The Wraparound (Explorer, Flex, Equinox, Acadia) 2.) The Tip-Up (Murano, RAV 4, Hyundai) 3.) The Traditional: (Edge/MKX, Escape, Jeep Grand Cherokee, SRX and just about everything else) The later is the most flexible to use and on my current design favorite, the Jeep Grand Cherokee. Edited October 31, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Powershift may be here to stay, but I wonder if Ford will continue to market it as an automatic replacement in the US. It is, in that respect, not unlike the CVT from 7 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 In most cars, that's already the case. Most of the cars that still offer manuals now, very likely will in the future as well. I don't see a day anytime soon where you can't buy a manual in something like the Mustang. Most of the word outside North America drive manuals you are so insular with your automatics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 There are three designs to choose from, all now derivative but the tip-up is the most "trite". 1.)The Wraparound (Explorer, Flex, Equinox, Acadia) 2.) The Tip-Up (Murano, RAV 4, Hyundai) 3.) The Traditional: (Edge/MKX, Escape, Jeep Grand Cherokee, SRX and just about everything else) The later is the most flexible to use and on my current design favorite, the Jeep Grand Cherokee. There are two other ones you missed: 4.) The rear haunch (MKT ewww) 5.) The kickdown (Genesis coupe, Honda Odyssey) Neither of those are particular pleasing in any of their applications either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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