2013 Ford Fusion Debuts

[Biker16]

Ford's also got very expensive labor, as compared to the Asians. If they can't successfully match them in terms of price, they have to make them attractive at a higher transaction price.

 

it not that much mre expensive than Toyota or Honda. labor.

 

chasing number one is a fools errand. there isn't a flood of profits in it as people think, in being number one.

 

I do believe ford's current global portfolio of brands is insufficient for global dominance.

[Edstock]

I do believe ford's current global portfolio of brands is insufficient for global dominance.

 

I do believe you're right. Also, I do believe that's going to change.

[iuswingman]

You're not comparing apples to apples. You can buy a 2.5L I4 non-hybrid SEL for at least $5K less than a hybrid. You're obviously comparing loaded non hybrids with base hybrids if the difference is only $2K. And I'm sure it's more than $5K if you add in incentives.

 

Buy it because you want a hybrid but don't buy the hybrid thinking you're saving money. You're just not.

 

I've mostly looked at the price of camrys and camry hybrids. Wasn't interested in the old Fusion and don't know prices of next Fusion.

 

Camry XLE 4 cylinder - $25,485

Camry XLE Hybrid - $28,160

Camry XLE 6 cylinder - $30,605

 

Performance on a hybrid camry is about right in the middle between a 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder as far as 0-60. However, Hybrid doesn't get moonroof (as standard) or 17in tires and doesn't get navigation standard like XLE 6 cylinder.

 

Considering where the performance falls on the hybrid, it could be easy to argue that the only premium on a hybrid is the value you place on missing out on a moonroof, navigation and 17in tires. If you don't place much value on those features, then the hybrid option makes a lot of sense for people looking at Camrys.

 

Based on '12 fusion prices, Ford puts a lot more of a premium on the hybrid version than other companies and based on history don't offer deals on it. I would be shocked and happy if that changed for the '13 version but I doubt it. It may very well be the better car in the '13 model year and the pricing may end up being the right choice for Ford whatever they decide. It's definitely the sexier looking car.

[akirby]

If you're only comparing hybrids then the Fusion wins hands down. But if you're only concerned with saving money then a non hybrid I4 Fusion is still the cheapest option.

[2b2]

off-topic

...the value you place on missing out on a moonroof, navigation and 17in tires...

I wouldn't want any of those features

 

of course I don't want a toyota either

[iuswingman]

If you're only comparing hybrids then the Fusion wins hands down. But if you're only concerned with saving money then a non hybrid I4 Fusion is still the cheapest option.

 

Definitely looks like it will be one of the best hybrids available when it comes out and might be the best. whether or not it is the best for me remains to be seen when I test drive it next year and if the price premium is worth it to me. If the fusion is nice enough, then it might even get sales from people that were looking at higher end cars rather than those looking at the fusion's normal competition.

 

as far as the i4 being the cheapest, depends on what you're comparing it to and we don't know the price of the next fusion. Based on the article, prices are likely raised across the board. by how much is anyone's guess.

 

Everyone has different tastes and different factors that play in to their decision.

[akirby]

as far as the i4 being the cheapest, depends on what you're comparing it to and we don't know the price of the next fusion. Based on the article, prices are likely raised across the board. by how much is anyone's guess.

 

Everyone has different tastes and different factors that play in to their decision.

 

Nobody's trying to tell you what to like or what to buy. But when you say you prefer one vehicle over the other because it's cheaper and you save on fuel then we have to assume that's your criteria. So we're just pointing out that IF that's your criteria you would save more money by buying a much cheaper I4 non hybrid that still gets very good fuel mileage (based on you only driving 6K miles per year).

 

If you're just using the better fuel economy as a justification to get what you want then stop trying to rationalize it and just get whatever you want.

[iuswingman]

Nobody's trying to tell you what to like or what to buy. But when you say you prefer one vehicle over the other because it's cheaper and you save on fuel then we have to assume that's your criteria. So we're just pointing out that IF that's your criteria you would save more money by buying a much cheaper I4 non hybrid that still gets very good fuel mileage (based on you only driving 6K miles per year).

 

If you're just using the better fuel economy as a justification to get what you want then stop trying to rationalize it and just get whatever you want.

 

There's more to the equation than just price...your suggestions are based on incorrect assumptions that it is as simplistic as there being only 1 factor. I said price IS a factor...NOT that is it the ONLY factor.

 

Your responses also ignores the fact that the hybrid has better performance than the i4 and is priced accordingly. The benefits aren't just fuel economy but better fuel economy also helps lower the long term cost, even for people that only drive 6,000 miles. That's still around $500 a year in savings and can still make up the difference between buying an i4 and a hybrid with similar features about 6 years or so as shown in the previous post.

Edited January 26, 2012 by iuswingman

[fordmantpw]

It definitely won't make it to my garage at a higher price even if it's the best looking car.

 

There's more to the equation than just price...your suggestions are based on incorrect assumptions that it is as simplistic as there being only 1 factor. I said price IS a factor...NOT that is it the ONLY factor.

 

Your first post above says price is the ONLY factor.

 

We can't read what you mean, we can only read what you post.

[akirby]

There's more to the equation than just price...your suggestions are based on incorrect assumptions that it is as simplistic as there being only 1 factor. I said price IS a factor...NOT that is it the ONLY factor.

 

Your responses also ignores the fact that the hybrid has better performance than the i4 and is priced accordingly. The benefits aren't just fuel economy but better fuel economy also helps lower the long term cost, even for people that only drive 6,000 miles. That's still around $500 a year in savings and can still make up the difference between buying an i4 and a hybrid with similar features about 6 years or so as shown in the previous post.

 

You didn't say performance was one of your criteria. You only mentioned fuel savings.

 

And there is no way you're going to make up the cost difference of a hybrid over a non hybrid I4 Fusion in 6 years. Your math is all wrong.

 

You're not going to save more than $200 in fuel per year with the hybrid vs. non hybrid so you're only saving $1200 over 6 years while you're paying at least a $3K premium up front and probably closer to $5K.

 

 

Look - I'm NOT telling you NOT to buy a hybrid. You clearly want a hybrid and the Fusion hybrid clearly outperforms the Camry hybrid - so why not just leave it at that and go buy the Fusion hybrid and be done with it?

 

OTOH - if you really do want to save money then you need to consider other options and be honest with the cost calculations when you do the comparison.

 

I just hate to see you make an objective decision based on incorrect assumptions and data.

[FordBuyer]

Right, but don't your customers ask and see what incentives are available? I mean how many people just walk in, look at the MSRP and say... "I'll take it at that price." I'm not that fussy, but money is tight enough that I will try to get the best deal and compare prices at a few different dealerships.

 

I have never bought a vehicle in it's first model year. It seems like every vehicle hits a sweet spot for price versus value in it's third or fourth year after a major re-design. Once the new ones hit the lot the incentives go away, but at some point there will always be some sort of end of year or end of model clearance.

 

A lot of people say go out and buy a 3 year old used vehicle, however I find that there are just too many people out there that do not properly service or take care of their vehicles. I suppose there will be a time that a lot of us will have to go that route, however I have been trying to hold off as long as possible. Leasing has been an option that has worked pretty well for me so as long as lease payments hold as they have so far I'm happy enough.

 

The best times to buy a new vehicle are December and/or the previous year model on lot as new model shows up. Bill Brown Ford around here and one of largest Ford dealers in Nation has plenty of vehicles in stock as in over a thousand and two used car lots. There are literally lots all over the place Bill Brown has that much inventory. I've never had trouble finding color and precise Ford I want on their lot. I always got the previous years' model as new model showed up and therefore got optimum incentives. I understand it's more difficult now with manufacturers making less new vehicles and dealers carrying less inventory. But if you are patient, and do your research and therefore know the score, I believe you can still get a good deal out there. With the internet, there is now no excuse to get screwed by either new or used vehicle dealer. The key is to do your research/homework on vehicle you want.

[FordBuyer]

When I was in college I worked at a furniture store in the mid 80s. Our everyday prices were lower than the chain stores and we would usually discount a little more off what was posted but we charged $25 for delivery (we didn't add delivery costs to our overhead). We had several incidences with Indian customers (from India, not Native Americans) where they would beat you down to the absolute lowest price possible and as you were writing up the sale and added sales tax they would say "no tax, I pay you cash" and then we would argue again about the taxes. Then they wanted it delivered for free so there was more arguing. This wasn't an isolated incident - it was at least 80-90% of the time. It got so bad that my manager started greeting Indian customers by telling them that the prices that were marked were the final prices, no discounts. They did not include sales tax and they did not include delivery. It just wasn't worth the time and effort for that type of sale.

 

That was a difficult thing for me to learn - that sometimes it's better to NOT make a sale.

Also - the people who paid the least and bought the cheapest stuff are the ones who complained the most about little things.

 

Sounds like that's a universal retail problem.

 

 

Hmmm, as America becomes even more multi-cultural, that pricing strategy may have to change big time. For example, in Mexico, you haggle over price on just about everything. It's actually kind of fun as store owner really acts like they want your business and will follow you out onto street quoting you lower price in order to get a sale. I suspect in India it's the same. Lots more cultures are like that also, and many of them are coming to America. I just bought a used car this past year and it was one big haggle fest. I looked, didn't buy, looked at another, and then got Email from original seller offering me better deal. I came back at him with lower price and he accepted. He chased me for sale and hustled for the deal. Haggle pricing is fun. I do it in my hobby also. Give and take and finally agree on a price. I did it when I bought my condo. Back and forth and finally agreed on price. It's hard to go to Mexico for a few weeks and get used to that kind of buying/selling and then come back to states and see one price, take it or leave it with no hustling by seller and really no interaction other than swiping your card at check out counter.

[FordBuyer]

Right, but don't your customers ask and see what incentives are available? I mean how many people just walk in, look at the MSRP and say... "I'll take it at that price." I'm not that fussy, but money is tight enough that I will try to get the best deal and compare prices at a few different dealerships.

 

I have never bought a vehicle in it's first model year. It seems like every vehicle hits a sweet spot for price versus value in it's third or fourth year after a major re-design. Once the new ones hit the lot the incentives go away, but at some point there will always be some sort of end of year or end of model clearance.

 

A lot of people say go out and buy a 3 year old used vehicle, however I find that there are just too many people out there that do not properly service or take care of their vehicles. I suppose there will be a time that a lot of us will have to go that route, however I have been trying to hold off as long as possible. Leasing has been an option that has worked pretty well for me so as long as lease payments hold as they have so far I'm happy enough.

 

On used vehicles Explorer, just make sure you get good, thorough PPI done by good mechanic that knows the make of vehicle well and you will be fine. However, used vehicle prices have gone through the roof and are expected to stay sky high for awhile making new vehicles a better deal most of the time. You really have to to back four years or more to find good deals on used vehicles. For example, a two year old certified Escape with 40,000 miles around here will run you $19,000 when you can buy a new XLT for about same price plus better financing deal. No better deal there buying used. I imagine used Escape prices will not drop until the new one has been out for awhile and make the present one look really dated. I've noticed that used late model Focus prices have finally dropped a bit since new Focus has been out for awhile. Used Fusion prices should drop once the new Fusion gains sales traction. It usually takes an all new model to make the older models really drop in value. It's like they age overnight.

[akirby]

Hmmm, as America becomes even more multi-cultural, that pricing strategy may have to change big time. For example, in Mexico, you haggle over price on just about everything. It's actually kind of fun as store owner really acts like they want your business and will follow you out onto street quoting you lower price in order to get a sale. I suspect in India it's the same. Lots more cultures are like that also, and many of them are coming to America. I just bought a used car this past year and it was one big haggle fest. I looked, didn't buy, looked at another, and then got Email from original seller offering me better deal. I came back at him with lower price and he accepted. He chased me for sale and hustled for the deal. Haggle pricing is fun. I do it in my hobby also. Give and take and finally agree on a price. I did it when I bought my condo. Back and forth and finally agreed on price. It's hard to go to Mexico for a few weeks and get used to that kind of buying/selling and then come back to states and see one price, take it or leave it with no hustling by seller and really no interaction other than swiping your card at check out counter.

 

There is a difference between haggling over price and wasting your time with unreasonable demands.

I understand it's a cultural thing but that doesn't mean american businesses have to accept it.

 

If I went to India I wouldn't expect the local businesses to work like they do here.

[akirby]

Hmmm, as America becomes even more multi-cultural, that pricing strategy may have to change big time.

 

BTW - that wasn't a pricing strategy. That was just a decision that their business wasn't worth the time and effort required to complete the sale. We were basically telling them to go away without actually telling them to go away.

[fordmantpw]

Interestingly enough, JCPenney just announced that they are cutting prices by ~40% and eliminating sales. I think this is similar to Ford's strategy of slightly lowering prices ('13 Escape) and cutting out incentives. A great plan in my mind...

 

My link

 

[FordBuyer]

Interestingly enough, JCPenney just announced that they are cutting prices by ~40% and eliminating sales. I think this is similar to Ford's strategy of slightly lowering prices ('13 Escape) and cutting out incentives. A great plan in my mind...

 

My link

 

I doubt very much if Ford pricing is changing much. Ford still advertises A/Z plan pricing only around here, and Ford vehicles along in their life cycle will still have decent incentives in order to be compeititve and move the units off dealer lots. No surprise that all new vehicle will have fewer incentives. That will change though as it ages and newer models from competitors come on line. Another reason not to buy first year model.....you put up with not only more new launch glitches, but pay through the nose for priviledge to be first on your block with one. Instant gratification is expensive. God love them though...they keep the economy going. :happy feet:

[iuswingman]

 

 

Your first post above says price is the ONLY factor.

 

We can't read what you mean, we can only read what you post.

 

What I was saying is that the fusion hybrid is highly unlikely to be worth the price premium for me when compared to other hybrid options with similar features. Not that price the only factor in my overall car decision. If that was the case, then I wouldn't buy a new car or I would buy a versa or forTWO. Given that those cars aren't what I'm looking at, it should be safe to assume that price isn't the only factor.

 

You didn't say performance was one of your criteria. You only mentioned fuel savings.

 

And there is no way you're going to make up the cost difference of a hybrid over a non hybrid I4 Fusion in 6 years. Your math is all wrong.

 

You're not going to save more than $200 in fuel per year with the hybrid vs. non hybrid so you're only saving $1200 over 6 years while you're paying at least a $3K premium up front and probably closer to $5K.

 

 

Look - I'm NOT telling you NOT to buy a hybrid. You clearly want a hybrid and the Fusion hybrid clearly outperforms the Camry hybrid - so why not just leave it at that and go buy the Fusion hybrid and be done with it?

 

OTOH - if you really do want to save money then you need to consider other options and be honest with the cost calculations when you do the comparison.

 

I just hate to see you make an objective decision based on incorrect assumptions and data.

 

My initial point was that people will factor price into their car buying decisions (i thought I was being master of the obvious) then it got sidetracked with replies that apparently misread my initial post. My replies were in regards to overall cost of a car which factors in cost of fuel over the time period you own the car.

 

Hybrids cost more to start out but hybrids also sell for more when you're done with them. Are you factoring that in your cost analysis? The over cost of ownership isn't as far out there compared to similarly equipped nonhybirds

 

I value features, performance (although don't need extremely high performance obviously), overall cost, environmental impact, fuel economy etc. The higher the price, the more it becomes a factor in my decision. Especially if i can't afford the higher price.

[FordBuyer]

What I was saying is that the fusion hybrid is highly unlikely to be worth the price premium for me when compared to other hybrid options with similar features. Not that price the only factor in my overall car decision. If that was the case, then I wouldn't buy a new car or I would buy a versa or forTWO. Given that those cars aren't what I'm looking at, it should be safe to assume that price isn't the only factor.

 

 

 

My initial point was that people will factor price into their car buying decisions (i thought I was being master of the obvious) then it got sidetracked with replies that apparently misread my initial post. My replies were in regards to overall cost of a car which factors in cost of fuel over the time period you own the car.

 

Hybrids cost more to start out but hybrids also sell for more when you're done with them. Are you factoring that in your cost analysis? The over cost of ownership isn't as far out there compared to similarly equipped nonhybirds

 

I value features, performance (although don't need extremely high performance obviously), overall cost, environmental impact, fuel economy etc. The higher the price, the more it becomes a factor in my decision. Especially if i can't afford the higher price.

 

I could be wrong, but isn't the base price of 2012 Fusion Hybrid of about $28,000 same price as SEL with maybe a few more features? Only deal breaker for me on present hybrid is lack of fold down rear seats. I hear the 2013 Fusion hybrid will have fold down rear seats, and base price will be interesting to see when Ford releases figures. At auto show, I noticed the plug-in models had higher load floors in rear with battery underneath. My prediction is that fuel prices will hit at least $4.50/gallon this summer and hybrids and plug-ins will be in short supply as demand increases. Diitto for small utes and B and C segment vehicles. $3.30 gas in middle of January virtually gaurantees much higher fuel prices in summer.

[iuswingman]

I could be wrong, but isn't the base price of 2012 Fusion Hybrid of about $28,000 same price as SEL with maybe a few more features? Only deal breaker for me on present hybrid is lack of fold down rear seats. I hear the 2013 Fusion hybrid will have fold down rear seats, and base price will be interesting to see when Ford releases figures. At auto show, I noticed the plug-in models had higher load floors in rear with battery underneath. My prediction is that fuel prices will hit at least $4.50/gallon this summer and hybrids and plug-ins will be in short supply as demand increases. Diitto for small utes and B and C segment vehicles. $3.30 gas in middle of January virtually gaurantees much higher fuel prices in summer.

 

Agree, if prices skyrocket then hybrids and compact cars will see an increase of sales.

 

Definitely interested to see where the prices actually fall for the hybrid. Given that there may be two non-plug-in hybrid trims, that could open up a cheaper hybrid option while still having overall higher prices across the board like the article indicated.

[Noah Harbinger]

Also - the people who paid the least and bought the cheapest stuff are the ones who complained the most about little things.

 

I know people who have made that their life's philosophy.

[Noah Harbinger]

Hmmm, as America becomes even more multi-cultural, that pricing strategy may have to change big time. For example, in Mexico, you haggle over price on just about everything. It's actually kind of fun as store owner really acts like they want your business and will follow you out onto street quoting you lower price in order to get a sale. I suspect in India it's the same. Lots more cultures are like that also, and many of them are coming to America. I just bought a used car this past year and it was one big haggle fest. I looked, didn't buy, looked at another, and then got Email from original seller offering me better deal. I came back at him with lower price and he accepted. He chased me for sale and hustled for the deal. Haggle pricing is fun. I do it in my hobby also. Give and take and finally agree on a price. I did it when I bought my condo. Back and forth and finally agreed on price. It's hard to go to Mexico for a few weeks and get used to that kind of buying/selling and then come back to states and see one price, take it or leave it with no hustling by seller and really no interaction other than swiping your card at check out counter.

 

In Argentina, people are even less inclined to haggling than in the US. I like that

[Deanh]

On used vehicles Explorer, just make sure you get good, thorough PPI done by good mechanic that knows the make of vehicle well and you will be fine. However, used vehicle prices have gone through the roof and are expected to stay sky high for awhile making new vehicles a better deal most of the time. You really have to to back four years or more to find good deals on used vehicles. For example, a two year old certified Escape with 40,000 miles around here will run you $19,000 when you can buy a new XLT for about same price plus better financing deal. No better deal there buying used. I imagine used Escape prices will not drop until the new one has been out for awhile and make the present one look really dated. I've noticed that used late model Focus prices have finally dropped a bit since new Focus has been out for awhile. Used Fusion prices should drop once the new Fusion gains sales traction. It usually takes an all new model to make the older models really drop in value. It's like they age overnight.

please let us know where the 19k 2012XLT Escapes are, we need as many as we can get and thats cheaper than we can buy them as a dealer from ford...........

[Deanh]

The best times to buy a new vehicle are December and/or the previous year model on lot as new model shows up. Bill Brown Ford around here and one of largest Ford dealers in Nation has plenty of vehicles in stock as in over a thousand and two used car lots. There are literally lots all over the place Bill Brown has that much inventory. I've never had trouble finding color and precise Ford I want on their lot. I always got the previous years' model as new model showed up and therefore got optimum incentives. I understand it's more difficult now with manufacturers making less new vehicles and dealers carrying less inventory. But if you are patient, and do your research and therefore know the score, I believe you can still get a good deal out there. With the internet, there is now no excuse to get screwed by either new or used vehicle dealer. The key is to do your research/homework on vehicle you want.

be sure to wait to walk in 5 minutes before they close too, preferably on Xmas Eve.....Jesus I hate this how to buy MORONIC ignorance, I personally find it insulting.....oh, and once youv'e "Haggled", walked out 4 times, had the DESPERATE sales personel running after you because he HAS to make his Quota for the BONUS, mention FDAF, holdback and financing reserve along with informing him you have a trade and start negotiating what YOU expect for that......

Edited January 26, 2012 by Deanh

[Deanh]

On used vehicles Explorer, just make sure you get good, thorough PPI done by good mechanic that knows the make of vehicle well and you will be fine. However, used vehicle prices have gone through the roof and are expected to stay sky high for awhile making new vehicles a better deal most of the time. You really have to to back four years or more to find good deals on used vehicles. For example, a two year old certified Escape with 40,000 miles around here will run you $19,000 when you can buy a new XLT for about same price plus better financing deal. No better deal there buying used. I imagine used Escape prices will not drop until the new one has been out for awhile and make the present one look really dated. I've noticed that used late model Focus prices have finally dropped a bit since new Focus has been out for awhile. Used Fusion prices should drop once the new Fusion gains sales traction. It usually takes an all new model to make the older models really drop in value. It's like they age overnight.

you are also wrong about resale values dropping on prior years models........