fordmantpw Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 At 3.50 a gallon, it would only take about 6 years assuming a hybrid has a $2k premium, which is close to what the premium is for a comparable non-hybrid. 6 years is hardly never for breaking even. Assuming you never EVER leave the stop and go city traffic, and insurance is the same, and maintenance is the same, and you don't finance that extra $2k, and you don't factor in the earnings had you invested that $2k. But, as others have stated, the premium is more than $2k... I like hybrids, I do, but don't claim they make financial sense when you only drive 6k miles per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iuswingman Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Actually the difference is more like $5K between a non hybrid SEL I4 and a hybrid Fusion. If you want a Fusion and you want a hybrid then get one. But don't try to claim it's the cheapest option. When did i say the fusion hybrid was the cheapest option? Unless price is no object, then no matter what car you're looking at, raising the price is going to make other options more viable. Everyone has a price range that they look at when shopping and have a best alternative in mind should a price become more than they're willing to spend on an item. Unless you're saying you'd spend any amount of money on the car you have, then safe to assume you'd have a plan B at a certain price point on plan A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iuswingman Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Assuming you never EVER leave the stop and go city traffic, and insurance is the same, and maintenance is the same, and you don't finance that extra $2k, and you don't factor in the earnings had you invested that $2k. But, as others have stated, the premium is more than $2k... I like hybrids, I do, but don't claim they make financial sense when you only drive 6k miles per year. premium is about $2000 on a camry but you lose on some of the features. more like $3,000-4000 if you have to add in every feature that is missing. At that point, it would take quite a while to break even on the price premium unless I end up driving more per year. If gas prices go higher than 3.50 as expected then it could still pay off the difference. The only factor is time and gas price. The paths do cross. Edited January 24, 2012 by iuswingman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Premium is around $2000 from the cars I have looked at so don't be telling me it's not when I've checked the numbers. And I can make it up over 6 years, especially if gas prices rise even higher. You're not comparing apples to apples. You can buy a 2.5L I4 non-hybrid SEL for at least $5K less than a hybrid. You're obviously comparing loaded non hybrids with base hybrids if the difference is only $2K. And I'm sure it's more than $5K if you add in incentives. Buy it because you want a hybrid but don't buy the hybrid thinking you're saving money. You're just not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) premium is about $2000 on a camry but you lose on some of the features. more like $3,000-4000 if you have to add in every feature that is missing. At that point, it would take quite a while to break even on the price premium unless I end up driving more per year. If gas prices go higher than 3.50 as expected then it could still pay off the difference. The only factor is time and gas price. The paths do cross. If you invest that $3-4k wisely, then no, the paths won't cross. However, if you spend that extra money on women and whiskey, then yes, they MAY cross before the car dies. I'm glad you see that it is further out than 6 years though. Edited January 24, 2012 by fordmantpw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Interesting. Definitely sounds like they're preparing people for a price that is higher than the current model. Personally, I think they'll find it is a mistake to price it too much higher than the competition. It definitely won't make it to my garage at a higher price even if it's the best looking car. It has been a bit disappointing to see Ford continue to push their products further and further upmarket and get more and more expensive compared to other mainstream brands. I know that many of the posters on here are quite wealthy and the fact that they are willing to pay any price to drive a Ford product proves that. Some of us have to watch every dollar and make good purchasing decisions. I have a feeling the ones on this message board who are always wishing for Ford to drive up prices as much as possible and will not accept any discounts have huge incomes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 It has been a bit disappointing to see Ford continue to push their products further and further upmarket and get more and more expensive compared to other mainstream brands. I know that many of the posters on here are quite wealthy and the fact that they are willing to pay any price to drive a Ford product proves that. Some of us have to watch every dollar and make good purchasing decisions. I have a feeling the ones on this message board who are always wishing for Ford to drive up prices as much as possible and will not accept any discounts have huge incomes. I made the comment a few years back...theres not a lot of desirable product < 20k, same rings true today, but Ford has a couple ( Fiesta, Focus ) that are at or near the best in class....fact is, choices are few and far between, but thats where USED comes in..........and i dont see it get any better ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) It has been a bit disappointing to see Ford continue to push their products further and further upmarket and get more and more expensive compared to other mainstream brands. I know that many of the posters on here are quite wealthy and the fact that they are willing to pay any price to drive a Ford product proves that. Some of us have to watch every dollar and make good purchasing decisions. I have a feeling the ones on this message board who are always wishing for Ford to drive up prices as much as possible and will not accept any discounts have huge incomes. The base price of the Escape is expected to start right where the outgoing model is, and the top of the line version should top out less than the current Escape. We haven't seen prices on the Fusion yet. So, what's the problem? Are you upset Ford won't have to pile huge incentives on to move the necessary number of vehicles to make a profit? If Ford can charge more for their products, and still sell enough to make a handsome profit, then that tells me the more expensive vehicles are worth it! Am I willing to pay a little more to get something that is worth it? Sure. We aren't talking 10's of thousands of dollars here. We are talking small increases in price (if at all) for markedly better vehicles. If you can't afford the nicer ones, buy the lower trim level. Or buy used. Or buy a Hyundai/GM/Kia/Dodge/whatever you want. The point is, you get what you pay for (for the most part). Edited January 24, 2012 by fordmantpw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 It has been a bit disappointing to see Ford continue to push their products further and further upmarket and get more and more expensive compared to other mainstream brands. I know that many of the posters on here are quite wealthy and the fact that they are willing to pay any price to drive a Ford product proves that. Some of us have to watch every dollar and make good purchasing decisions. I have a feeling the ones on this message board who are always wishing for Ford to drive up prices as much as possible and will not accept any discounts have huge incomes. Some of us do want and are willing to pay for premium vehicles. However, it's mostly about wanting Ford to succeed and trying to outcheap Chevy or Kia or Hyundai just isn't a viable business model right now. If you can't afford a new vehicle then buy one that's 3 years old for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 If you can't afford the nicer ones, buy the lower trim level. Or buy used. Or buy a Hyundai/GM/Kia/Dodge/whatever you want. The point is, you get what you pay for (for the most part). If you can't afford a new vehicle then buy one that's 3 years old for a fraction of the cost of a new one. I don't know why we both post here...we're just duplicating each other's posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The base price of the Escape is expected to start right where the outgoing model is, and the top of the line version should top out less than the current Escape. We haven't seen prices on the Fusion yet. So, what's the problem? Are you upset Ford won't have to pile huge incentives on to move the necessary number of vehicles to make a profit? If Ford can charge more for their products, and still sell enough to make a handsome profit, then that tells me the more expensive vehicles are worth it! Am I willing to pay a little more to get something that is worth it? Sure. We aren't talking 10's of thousands of dollars here. We are talking small increases in price (if at all) for markedly better vehicles. If you can't afford the nicer ones, buy the lower trim level. Or buy used. Or buy a Hyundai/GM/Kia/Dodge/whatever you want. The point is, you get what you pay for (for the most part). personally I think ford is countering the front end loss of profitability ( caused by keeping MSRPs similar between the new and outgoing models ) through utilizing less "trunk" money and slightly higher rate specials ( ie 3.9 instead of 1.9 ) MSRPs are a delicate issue, so why not keep them the same instead of a $1000 higher and offer a $1000 rebate instead of a $2000 rebate....hope that makes sense.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I don't know why we both post here...we're just duplicating each other's posts. raging plagerism, we need to seat the two of you in a room so you can compliment one another.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 personally I think ford is countering the front end loss of profitability ( caused by keeping MSRPs similar between the new and outgoing models ) through utilizing less "trunk" money and slightly higher rate specials ( ie 3.9 instead of 1.9 ) MSRPs are a delicate issue, so why not keep them the same instead of a $1000 higher and offer a $1000 rebate instead of a $2000 rebate....hope that makes sense.... Makes perfect sense. The only thing is, they don't get to advertise "come get your rebates before they are gone!" and bring in the true bargain shoppers. However, those cross-shopping on the streets without the ads, will see the MSRP's stack up rather nicely with the competitors, and may not notice the lack of rebates as much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Makes perfect sense. The only thing is, they don't get to advertise "come get your rebates before they are gone!" and bring in the true bargain shoppers. However, those cross-shopping on the streets without the ads, will see the MSRP's stack up rather nicely with the competitors, and may not notice the lack of rebates as much. off the record, the so called "bargain hunters" I can do without, and I specifically point to the its "never good enough, Im a king negotiator" crowd....I would prefer they go elsewhere and waste someone elses time, they are usually an ongoing issue as well, back 3-4 times for new phone hookup, a small scratch here, a rub mark there, and so on ansdd so on...THSOE are the people one can never seem to make happy. And they STILL think they are being fleeced somewhere.... seems to me , by lowering incentives maybe theres a lost sale here and there but BIG deal....to those that buy a car based on incentives, and incentives only....let them have their "fleet" queens....something ford seems to sneakily be getting away from.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 personally I think ford is countering the front end loss of profitability ( caused by keeping MSRPs similar between the new and outgoing models ) through utilizing less "trunk" money and slightly higher rate specials ( ie 3.9 instead of 1.9 ) MSRPs are a delicate issue, so why not keep them the same instead of a $1000 higher and offer a $1000 rebate instead of a $2000 rebate....hope that makes sense.... it's probably a good way of keeping competitors sticker price in reach while doing an end run around them with bundled options packs.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 sidebar regarding the shop-aholics....having a DESIRABLE vehicle levels the playing field....someone walks in expecting a huge discount and makes a questionable offer..." thankyou sir, we appreciate the offer and we will write the offer down and get back to you if the car is still here in 30 days............" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) sidebar regarding the shop-aholics....having a DESIRABLE vehicle levels the playing field....someone walks in expecting a huge discount and makes a questionable offer..." thankyou sir, we appreciate the offer and we will write the offer down and get back to you if the car is still here in 30 days............" How many of your sales are walk -ins that are ready to buy that car right now? I've spoken to quite a few dealers in Australia and they assure me that you better have desirable floor stock for buyers ready to go and some base versions out back for small fleets... Edited January 24, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 How many of your sales are walk -ins that are ready to buy that car right now? I've spoken to quite a few dealers in Australia and they assure me that you better have desirable floor stock and some base versions out back for small fleets... well, its been interesting over the last 12 months for sure, I think more are ready when they come in due to the fact that dealers inventories are down 30%, so theres a tad more urgency. Transaction prices are higher also, probably due to the same reason. Personally I was up 40 % from 2010, now as good as that sounds, Im wondering if its partly a reflection of how bad things had been the previous years.....lol.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Always look forward, this year looks like being a lot bigger sales wise, just depends on buyers and confidence returning... I'm wonder whether F150 might just keep increasing steadily with buyers returning to the market... Edited January 24, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 off the record, the so called "bargain hunters" I can do without, and I specifically point to the its "never good enough, Im a king negotiator" crowd....I would prefer they go elsewhere and waste someone elses time, they are usually an ongoing issue as well, back 3-4 times for new phone hookup, a small scratch here, a rub mark there, and so on ansdd so on...THSOE are the people one can never seem to make happy. And they STILL think they are being fleeced somewhere.... seems to me , by lowering incentives maybe theres a lost sale here and there but BIG deal....to those that buy a car based on incentives, and incentives only....let them have their "fleet" queens....something ford seems to sneakily be getting away from.... Right, but don't your customers ask and see what incentives are available? I mean how many people just walk in, look at the MSRP and say... "I'll take it at that price." I'm not that fussy, but money is tight enough that I will try to get the best deal and compare prices at a few different dealerships. I have never bought a vehicle in it's first model year. It seems like every vehicle hits a sweet spot for price versus value in it's third or fourth year after a major re-design. Once the new ones hit the lot the incentives go away, but at some point there will always be some sort of end of year or end of model clearance. A lot of people say go out and buy a 3 year old used vehicle, however I find that there are just too many people out there that do not properly service or take care of their vehicles. I suppose there will be a time that a lot of us will have to go that route, however I have been trying to hold off as long as possible. Leasing has been an option that has worked pretty well for me so as long as lease payments hold as they have so far I'm happy enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Right, but don't your customers ask and see what incentives are available? I mean how many people just walk in, look at the MSRP and say... "I'll take it at that price." I'm not that fussy, but money is tight enough that I will try to get the best deal and compare prices at a few different dealerships. I have never bought a vehicle in it's first model year. It seems like every vehicle hits a sweet spot for price versus value in it's third or fourth year after a major re-design. Once the new ones hit the lot the incentives go away, but at some point there will always be some sort of end of year or end of model clearance. A lot of people say go out and buy a 3 year old used vehicle, however I find that there are just too many people out there that do not properly service or take care of their vehicles. I suppose there will be a time that a lot of us will have to go that route, however I have been trying to hold off as long as possible. Leasing has been an option that has worked pretty well for me so as long as lease payments hold as they have so far I'm happy enough. People usually know thanks to the internet...the guys i am specifically talking about are the people that feel they are entitled to submitting pricing several thousand BELOW cost....dont know if its a tactic or just plain entitlement...ultimately ( barring Raptors and the like ) what one pays is/ should be a mutual agreeable compromise...dealers do NOT have control over rebates or any factory programs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 When I was in college I worked at a furniture store in the mid 80s. Our everyday prices were lower than the chain stores and we would usually discount a little more off what was posted but we charged $25 for delivery (we didn't add delivery costs to our overhead). We had several incidences with Indian customers (from India, not Native Americans) where they would beat you down to the absolute lowest price possible and as you were writing up the sale and added sales tax they would say "no tax, I pay you cash" and then we would argue again about the taxes. Then they wanted it delivered for free so there was more arguing. This wasn't an isolated incident - it was at least 80-90% of the time. It got so bad that my manager started greeting Indian customers by telling them that the prices that were marked were the final prices, no discounts. They did not include sales tax and they did not include delivery. It just wasn't worth the time and effort for that type of sale. That was a difficult thing for me to learn - that sometimes it's better to NOT make a sale. Also - the people who paid the least and bought the cheapest stuff are the ones who complained the most about little things. Sounds like that's a universal retail problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 When I was in college I worked at a furniture store in the mid 80s. Our everyday prices were lower than the chain stores and we would usually discount a little more off what was posted but we charged $25 for delivery (we didn't add delivery costs to our overhead). We had several incidences with Indian customers (from India, not Native Americans) where they would beat you down to the absolute lowest price possible and as you were writing up the sale and added sales tax they would say "no tax, I pay you cash" and then we would argue again about the taxes. Then they wanted it delivered for free so there was more arguing. This wasn't an isolated incident - it was at least 80-90% of the time. It got so bad that my manager started greeting Indian customers by telling them that the prices that were marked were the final prices, no discounts. They did not include sales tax and they did not include delivery. It just wasn't worth the time and effort for that type of sale. That was a difficult thing for me to learn - that sometimes it's better to NOT make a sale. Also - the people who paid the least and bought the cheapest stuff are the ones who complained the most about little things. Sounds like that's a universal retail problem. I had the unfortunate experience of working retail for a number of years. We dreaded when Indians would come in because of just that. If you gave it to them for free they would still complain you didn't give them more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It has been a bit disappointing to see Ford continue to push their products further and further upmarket Ford's also got very expensive labor, as compared to the Asians. If they can't successfully match them in terms of price, they have to make them attractive at a higher transaction price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ford's also got very expensive labor, as compared to the Asians. If they can't successfully match them in terms of price, they have to make them attractive at a higher transaction price. Price doesn't sell cars...quality does...sure, you'll get some dopes that will buy the cheapest thing they can get their hands on, but at the end of the day, if all you can do is talk about the $$, you sold yourself short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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