FordBuyer Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 What the hell, Richard? Porsche 356? 907? 917 (in more than one series)? 911 Carrera? 934? 935 (for so many years)? 936? 956? 962? The GT2 and GT3 that dominate their classes in various series? Lemans wins? Did the stint in CART/IndyCar (where Ford hasn't been in years). The 959 in Group B? The more recent open cockpit prototype I can't recall...? Anyone NOT addled would call that a pretty impressive history of mostly UTTERLY DOMINANT machinery. Hell, the 917s and the 935s rewrote record books for years...and the 956/962 owned the 24 at Daytona for a long time as well. I don't know what I'm seeing here, lately...but there are some bizarre attitudes and statements flying around. With GM, BMW, Nissan, Porsche, Dodge/Viper, and others using the 'Ring for testing...Ford has some useful benchmarks to go against. Why spit, sputter, and snarl so much at running the GT500 there...especially when Ford is openly considering exporting the Mustang to European markets in the future? This spittle-fest against the 'Ring makes zero sense, and the remarks about Porsche are borderline madness in the auto racing world. He was talking about fricking drag racing. Anyway, the 917 is the most iconic racer ever. 240mph down the Musalane Straight in 1971 and faster than F1 cars at time and one of most powerful racers ever built even compared to the best of today. Just watch 1971 Lemans film starring Steve McQueen and listen to that 917 scream around track. Something like four of them were at Rennsport Porsche racing reunion this past fall tearing up Laguna Seca. Porsche is back into LMP racing starting in 2014. The 911 Cup Car is still no slouch, but up against it when compared to larger displacement V8's the other teams are using. Should be more competitive in GT class when new 991 Cup Car makes its appearance, although they will still be using Flat 6 that doesn't have the torque or hp of rivals. With rear axle moved up 3 inches, and some more power, Porsche should still be able to find a way to keep up with BMW, Corvette, Ferrari, and now Viper. They have two very gifted drivers in Jorge Bergmeister and Patrick Long. Rules changes that don't favor Porsche is having an effct, and looks like long year in 2012, but shorter courses will make the 911with new wider rear body more dangerous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Porsche's stint in IndyCars was either a failure, a joke, or both. Using the ring to get bragging rights is ridiculous. And insisting that Ford has some 'catching up' to do vs. the Germans is ill-informed nonsense. We get it. You hate Porsche and the Nurburgring and Ford can do no wrong. Not eveyone thinks like you though and we know what we like and don't like just like you. Charles Lindbergh used to get skewered by American media when he stated that Germany made much better planes than us just before start of WW2. They called him a Nazi lover even though he flew combat missions in the Pacific for America and worked for Henry in Ypsi getting that plant in order. I would love to see the Domestics take market share back from Asia and Germany, but still waiting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Did I say the 917 was a bad car? Shoot, man, it was awesome. It had frickin' 1000hp. But what else has Porsche hung their hat on? Closed wheel racing on road course. That's it. That's all they've done. Don't tell me that Ford has to look up to Porsche. Ford has won everywhere. EVERYWHERE. E-V-E-R-Y-W-H-E-R-E. You name me ONE car company that has a racing pedigree that comes within a mile of Ford's. Ferrari? Yeah. Let me know when the notch a class win at the Baja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Oh, but I'm glad to see that Ford has *finally* started competing with the Germans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) You hate Porsche Because I don't own a ten year old Boxster and mention it in every third post here? I've got news for you. Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes are niche manufacturers who have had extreme success in racing niches. Ford has built dang near everything, raced almost everything they've built, and won everything they've entered at least once. If you combined the success of Ferrari and GM, you might be close to the breadth of Ford's success in racing. Except you'd be short rally racing Edited June 19, 2012 by RichardJensen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Did I say the 917 was a bad car? Shoot, man, it was awesome. It had frickin' 1000hp. But what else has Porsche hung their hat on? Closed wheel racing on road course. That's it. That's all they've done. Don't tell me that Ford has to look up to Porsche. Ford has won everywhere. EVERYWHERE. E-V-E-R-Y-W-H-E-R-E. You name me ONE car company that has a racing pedigree that comes within a mile of Ford's. Ferrari? Yeah. Let me know when the notch a class win at the Baja. Again, I don't remember anyone, especially me, questioning Ford's racing legacy. In some ways, I'm very intimate with Ford's racing heritage especially in the 60's when my father was an engineer for Ford and was involved with at least one of their racing projects. You can actually love more than one auto company without being completely disloyal to other love. I even admire some others, but Ford and Porsche have my heart. Like Ford, Porsche has had some rough times, and many state that the Boxster saved the company, and the success of the Cayenne gives them money to keep the sports cars current and competitive. Like Ford, Porsche chooses its racing efforts carefully and very targeted like Ford. Both have great legacies, and both are very cautious on where they spend the money on new products and racing. I admire both companies. In my mind, both would make huge mistakes fooling around with Indy and/or F1. Like how Ford entered LMP racing and have been successful. And seem to be lots of Mustang racers out there winning which is best of all. Lots of great competition in ALMS and Grand Am Rolex series. The more the merrier. So don't be so damn defensive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Again, I don't remember anyone, especially me, questioning Ford's racing legacy Nice to see the Americans upping their standards and trying to compete with the German top rated performance vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 How about this, for perspective. Lets say that Ford takes a GT500 to the "ring." Now, due to the fact that there are no rules, no sanctioning body, no oversight, and you can rent it so that you, and you alone can use it with noone looking................. you take advantage of the situation (like other manufacturers have in the past). You know, little things like a full roll cage, shaved tires, a little special tune here and there................. after all, who will know that you did it?? Its not like anyone will ever ship their car over, and match what you did.................... right?? But better still, lets say you watch the weather reports real well, so you know when the conditions are optimum. You then have your pro driver spend the entire day on the track, running dozens of laps, so he knows every nuance of the track. You cool the car down to the max, and make your HERO run. You make sure that there is a nice little camera in the cabin, to record speed and such................ after all, that doesn't show anything about what you did to the car, does it?? Then you get your one in a million, never to be duplicated by anyone in their lifetime run..................... and you run out and sell it. Sell it because it is all that your parts bin car can toot its horn on. After all, it is overweight, has heat soak like the tiny overspinning supercharged pig that it is, and is a 10-20 minute wonder. Who cares if the car will see Boss 302 taillights speeding away from it in a real road race of actual duration (and yes, this did happen to a very experienced road racer, in his new uber Camaro).......................... you have the "ring." BTW, word is that the GT500 was faster than the ZL1. However, what does Ford have to gain by proclaiming this?? The Camaro fans will just find any excuse to invalidate the times. Or, they will be close enough that the GT500 will be a major disappointment based on its price, or its horsepower advantage, or the fact that it has no supermagno suspension.................... plus the Camaro is more comfy, and looks better. So, what did Ford accomplish?? Will it convince anyone who wasn't already considering a GT500, to do so?? I think I know that the answer is a resounding NO. Thus far, Ford has not sung the praises of the GT500's performance. They have let the media and the car do the talking. They have not talked about 0-60 times, or 0-100 times, or 1/4 mile times............ yet, they certainly don't suck. So, why does anyone believe that other performance metrics will suck, just because Ford isn't shouting from rooftops. They are not GM. They do not need to have something to hang their hat on, because their overweight and underpowered "muscle" car has no prayer in the 1/4 mile. It is nice to know that so many of you bought it. GM should be proud of their marketing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I love the Germans, corned beef for breakfast.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Did I say the 917 was a bad car? Shoot, man, it was awesome. It had frickin' 1000hp. But what else has Porsche hung their hat on? Closed wheel racing on road course. That's it. That's all they've done. Don't tell me that Ford has to look up to Porsche. Ford has won everywhere. EVERYWHERE. E-V-E-R-Y-W-H-E-R-E. You name me ONE car company that has a racing pedigree that comes within a mile of Ford's. Ferrari? Yeah. Let me know when the notch a class win at the Baja. Get the complete Rennsport Porsche Reunion photos off internet and see the number of past Porsche race cars and their winning records. Yeah, it's all about road racing circuit wins at many class levels including prototype racing. The venerable 911 holds so many class wins over many decades that it would be hard to list them all. The prototype list is also very extensive as the 917 is not the fastest, but the most iconic and fastest of its era. Porsche for many years was a real endurance champ as it won 24 hour of Lemans, Daytona, 12 hours of Sebring many times and many classes in same race. Most years, Ferrari and Porsche went at it tooth and nail. Both tiny companies that slayed giants. Both family owned with family name like Ford. Both names synonomous with road racing success. It's hard not to fall in love with companies like that. Everyone loves an underdog. Not sure where these companies are going now as they become more corporate and anonymous, but the past is inconic much like Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Thus far, Ford has not sung the praises of the GT500's performance. Short of a few obligatory "Most powerful production V8", "Fastest Mustang ever", Ford has been refreshingly quiet about the ability of this car. Because when you've got a car this good, you don't have to say a thing about it. Everybody already knows it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Short of a few obligatory "Most powerful production V8", "Fastest Mustang ever", Ford has been refreshingly quiet about the ability of this car. Because when you've got a car this good, you don't have to say a thing about it. Everybody already knows it. Where do you draw the line for "production" though? The Koenigsegg CCR has a V8 (originally based on the 4.6 mod motor in fact) making 806 HP. Granted, they only built 14 of them. Edited June 19, 2012 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Where do you draw the line for "production" though? The Koenigsegg CCR has a V8 (originally based on the 4.6 mod motor in fact) making 806 HP. Granted, they only built 14 of them. I took it as currently in production.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Picking just that out of my post...now THAT'S ridiculous. Porsche may be road and street course focused...but as that's created decades of some very awesome cars, I'd say the efforts were well-spent. Certainly more involved than getting "Ford" next to "Cosworth" (who did the real engineering on the motors) by writing some checks. Has Ford won everywhere? Yeah, minus a true "full effort" IndyCar effort, something beyond just the engines. On the other hand, Porsche has "been there" in a number of huge races/series involving Daytona, LeMans, the 'Ring, etc...so I think the remark of "not being there" is unworthy of them. Oh, and "Extreme 4x4"...some of us have been longtime fans of international racing, and new about the 'Ring long before any CTS commercials. When you can lecture me on Group 5 Zakspeed Capris and other Ford racing efforts of the 80's, try me. Until then...your little GM marketing bit is your latest waste of time and bandwidth. Porsche's stint in IndyCars was either a failure, a joke, or both. Using the ring to get bragging rights is ridiculous. And insisting that Ford has some 'catching up' to do vs. the Germans is ill-informed nonsense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Certainly more involved than getting "Ford" next to "Cosworth" (who did the real engineering on the motors) by writing some checks. What are you? HemiSBC? Only a fool believes that Ford's only contribution to the DFV was money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 And Zan, I don't know what's gotten into you lately, but you're just a thorough ass these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 We get it. You hate Porsche and the Nurburgring and Ford can do no wrong. Not eveyone thinks like you though and we know what we like and don't like just like you. Charles Lindbergh used to get skewered by American media when he stated that Germany made much better planes than us just before start of WW2. They called him a Nazi lover even though he flew combat missions in the Pacific for America and worked for Henry in Ypsi getting that plant in order. I would love to see the Domestics take market share back from Asia and Germany, but still waiting. We get it. You're a Porsche Slappy. Porsche can do no wrong. Not everyone thinks like you though, and we know what we like and don't like just like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 And Zan, I don't know what's gotten into you lately, but you're just a thorough ass these days. Hey! No name calling....that goes for moderators too. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) We get it. You're a Porsche Slappy. Porsche can do no wrong. Not everyone thinks like you though, and we know what we like and don't like just like you. AFAI am concerned, driven the 911's in various configurations, not a fan in the slightest, and they dont hold a candle to the Ferraris....those cars left an impression on me that NOTHING has leapfrogged....cant say ive driven any Boxters, Cayman is my favorite, but then again, Porsches here are like rolex watches...seems every @hole has one....( and ironically this is post #69.........) Edited June 19, 2012 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevys Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_ford_shelby_gt500/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevys Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 GT500 - 1:45.21 ZL1 - 1:44.53 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twmalonehunter Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Something very fishy in that review. I cant believe the Ford could have that much body roll.....none of the first drives so much as hinted at anything like that. No way a car 300lbs heavier and down 100hp SHOULD win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Something very fishy in that review. Could be this part: I wanted the ZL1 to win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The time was in: 1:44.53. A significant seven-tenths of a second faster than the GT500. And I estimate the missed shifts cost upwards of half a second per lap. With an 80-hp deficit, the underdog came through by a monumental amount. That's a staggering achievement against a car that, by all measures, is fantastic in its own right. Since when is 7/10 of a second over 1:45 "significant" or "monumental" or "staggering"? They don't say whether they had the adjustable shocks on the firmest setting either. I don't doubt the ZL1 may be faster with MRC but I don't think it's *that* much better. I guess we'll be seeing Ford's electronically controlled shocks before too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 GT500 - 1:45.21 ZL1 - 1:44.53 Not shocked that the Mustang kills the Camaro on the street, strip and top end, or that the Camaro has an edge on the track, a short one at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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