New Light & Medium Duty News

[hwyman3]

So... does GM keep the Isuzu Duramax or go to a Navi diesel?

 

 

My guess, Class 1-3 keeps the Duramax, LCF trucks Isuzu and the conventional mediums will be GM V-8 gas and Navistar Diesels

[7Mary3]

So... does GM keep the Isuzu Duramax or go to a Navi diesel?

 

http://www.ccjdigital.com/gm-navistar-class-45-truck-will-get-duramax-engine-allison-trans/

 

The Navistar MaxForce7/VT365E/Powerstroke 6.0L and 6.4L are out of production.

Edited May 2, 2017 by 7Mary3

[jpd80]

Looks like VW's 16% stake in navistar mean that the next gen MAN and Scania engines will be coming to Navistar...

and we all know who designed the troublesome Powerstroke 6.0 (MAN)

Edited May 2, 2017 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

Looks like VW's 16% stake in navistar mean that the next gen MAN and Scania engines will be coming to Navistar...

and we all know who designed the troublesome Powerstroke 6.0 (MAN)

 

No, I don't think MAN had anything to do with the VT-365E/Powerstroke 6.0L.

[7Mary3]

Ok. Let's pause for a minute on this GM/Navistar thing.

 

First: What medium duty gas engine does GM have on the market right now? AFAIK, they don't have any.

 

Why would we assume that a clean-sheet design from GM will be better than Ford's current offering?

 

Second: Why did Ford and Navistar split? Because of a Navistar supplied diesel. Why did CAT and Navistar split? Because of a Navistar supplied diesel.

 

​Why would we assume that Navistar will come up with a better diesel than the Scorpion, when Ford engineered the Scorpion manifestly because Navistar could not supply a better diesel than the Scorpion.

​Third: What will be the incentive to purchase a GM/Navistar MD?

Will these trucks be cheaper than Ford's? And if so, will they be sustainably profitable for GM/Navistar?

Does either GM or Navistar have a better network of MD dealers or a better MD fleet sales operation?

​I'm not worried about the GM/Navistar operation. They're in many ways starting from scratch and trying to use each other as leverage into an area where neither of them are particularly good. IMO, it'd be like a guy who repairs watches teaming up with a guy who repairs grandfather clocks in order to break into the radio repair business.

 

Well........

 

Not exactly sure what is going on with GM and medium duty gasoline engines, but I have heard that they have something under development, much like this Ford 7xx program. It looks like the GM/Navistar medium duty will launch with the new Duramax with a gasoline option following a bit later. GM currently has quite a commercial gasoline engine in their L96 6.0L V-8, just judging by the number of other OEM's using it (add Fuso to that list). Would it be that hard to make an increased displacement version?

 

Why did Ford and Navistar split? No need to cover the obvious (6.0L Powerstroke) part of that here, but there were other factors. Ford promising Navistar a big contract for the (equally worthless) 4.5L V-6 Powerstroke for the F-150 and then bailing on them after Navistar spend a lot of money on development and tooling didn't help the relationship. Right around this time was when Navistar first starting talking to GM, much to Ford's consternation. Remember that part of the settlement between Ford and Navistar was the transfer of majority ownership of 'Blue Diamond' to Navistar. How important was 'Blue Diamond' to Ford after Navistar had 75% of it? As for Caterpillar, most of those Cat-branded International PayStar's had Cat power! In the end, Cat's ACERT was no better than Navistar's MaxForce. Actually the NOX strategy was similar, and produced similar results (truck broke down on side of road!). Some of the later Cat trucks had Navistar engines and I believe the plan was to transition to MAN-based diesels, but the trucks sold so poorly Caterpillar decided to leave the on-road truck business. And, that was AFTER Caterpillar announced they were going to manufacture the trucks themselves with Navistar supplying some components.

 

Already announced announced the GM/Navistar trucks will use the new Duramax. Competitive with the current Powerstroke? Yes, I think so. No question Ford did the 6.7L because of Navistar's inability to supply Ford with a decent diesel engine.

 

Incentive to purchase the GM/Navistar truck over Ford? Who knows at this point. Neither the former GM 4500/5500's or the International TerraStar were price competitive with the Ford F-450/550. Also, I believe both the GM and International class 4/5's were too big and overbuilt (high unladen weight, same GVW, lower payload) compared to the Fords. No idea what pricing will be on the GM/Navistar, though I tend to think it might still be higher than the Ford. The wild card is International's dealer network. They are large, professional, and very innovative (first to offer over-the-air programming and maintenance data collection, just like aircraft engine manufacturers). And, International will be selling EVERYTHING in class 4 through 8+, including school buses. That might be even more of an advantage than class 1 through 7 (maybe 6.5 since the inference is Ford!). Chevy's commercial dealer network's ultimate strength is unknown at this point, though based on what I see in my area many of the former Chevy medium truck dealers are back to selling the Isuzu LCF's. And, the Chevy-badged Isuzu LCF model lineup is growing (soon to be in class 6, and maybe larger). I doubt it's doing much for GM's bottom line, but it is making the dealers happy.

 

I am not too sure GM and Navistar are exactly starting from scratch, and between the two of them I do see some potential. No, neither was too successful at class 4/5 in the past, but this time who knows. I am sure Ford has an eye on these guys.

Edited May 2, 2017 by 7Mary3

[RichardJensen]

 

No, I don't think MAN had anything to do with the VT-365E/Powerstroke 6.0L.

 

They probably did.

 

Matthewq4b dug up a few odd press releases & articles from about 13/14 years ago that were pretty convincing.

[RichardJensen]

 

Well........

 

Not exactly sure what is going on with GM and medium duty gasoline engines, but I have heard that they have something under development, much like this Ford 7xx program. It looks like the GM/Navistar medium duty will launch with the new Duramax with a gasoline option following a bit later. GM currently has quite a commercial gasoline engine in their L96 6.0L V-8, just judging by the number of other OEM's using it (add Fuso to that list). Would it be that hard to make an increased displacement version?

 

Re: increased displacement on the 6.0L -- I think that might be a challenge. We're talking the same block dimensions as the 5.3L, right? GM has been able to get that up to 7.0L, but only in some exotic applications. I think they may need to 'clean sheet' their MD gas engine.

 

Re: Use of Duramax diesel -- so what it sounds like is that GM is basically planning to sit right on top of the same range as Ford -- neither more capacity nor less, which seems like it's going to come down to sales teams and pricing.

 

Another component: When was the last time a partnership with Navistar worked out? I mean, part of me thinks that GM is going to get burned just like everyone else.

 

Also: If we're looking at an International/GM joint venture that will be using diesel engines supplied by Isuzu, that's a lot of mouths to feed. If you're going to compete on price, that's a lot of different companies that are going to be taking a slice of your gross.

 

One of the reasons why Ford in-sourced everything on the F650/750, I'm sure, is because of the cost of guaranteeing a unit profit to Allison for the transmission, Cummins for the diesel, not to mention Navistar for the whole truck.

[SoonerLS]

The reason that GM is cosying up to Navistar is because they're too cheap to do it all themselves.

Let's not forget that GM shut down their powertrain research back in the '07-'08 timeframe--between that and other events surrounding the bankruptcy/bailout, how much diesel powertrain expertise did they lose? They could be outsourcing it because they no longer have the expertise to do diesel from the ground up.

[7Mary3]

Let's not forget that GM shut down their powertrain research back in the '07-'08 timeframe--between that and other events surrounding the bankruptcy/bailout, how much diesel powertrain expertise did they lose? They could be outsourcing it because they no longer have the expertise to do diesel from the ground up.

 

The 2017 Duramax is probably over 90% new compared to the previous version, and I am told GM Powertrain did all of the update. The basic 6.6L Duramax architecture was done by Isuzu and I believe Isuzu supplies some parts and still owns part of the D-Max plant where the engines are produced. It's a large plant (200,000 units/year) that can probably handle more production and I believe the 6.6L Duramax is currently it's only product. BTW- the Duramax will power the military's Humvee replacement.

Edited May 2, 2017 by 7Mary3

[Bob Rosadini]

Some good news............

 

• Electronic stability control and traction control brakes now standard on tractor models (optional on F-750 diesel straight frame model*)

   

• New diesel engine soot trap regeneration inhibitor allows driver to postpone incinerating trapped soot until regeneration can be performed in a preferred location, plus new easy-to-access oil dipstick location to check oil levels

   

• New high-output 240-amp alternator now available for 6.8-liter V10 gasoline engine models

   

• Available three-inch bumper extension limits potential hood wear and collision damage

   

DEARBORN, Mich., May 3, 2017 – Ford, America’s truck leader, is updating its biggest trucks to improve performance and serviceability. Ford F-650 and F-750 medium-duty trucks are the fastest growing volume Class 6-7 brand**.

Ford F-650 and F-750 trucks were completely redesigned for 2016, enjoying their best sales since 1997 last year. Ford’s largest trucks are available in straight-frame, kick-up frame Pro Loader and dedicated tractor models, with Regular Cab, SuperCab and Crew Cab body styles. Ford is the only manufacturer to offer a choice of gasoline or diesel powertrain in the medium-duty conventional truck market. All F-650 and F-750 trucks are built at Ohio Assembly Plant near Cleveland using domestic and foreign parts.

“Customers are moving from other brands to Ford F-650 and F-750 medium-duty trucks because they’re affordable and Built Ford Tough in America,” says Kevin Koester, Ford medium-duty truck and Super Duty fleet marketing manager. “Our segment-exclusive gasoline engine is appealing to fleet managers who recognize not every duty cycle requires the torque of a diesel engine, and who prefer the cost and maintenance advantages of gasoline power.

“The success of our new truck design is apparent from our growing sales and the fact it was named Medium-Duty Truck of the Year by Work Truck magazine in 2016 and 2017,” adds Koester. “For 2018, we’re enhancing this successful platform based on customer feedback.”

Electronic stability control and traction control brakes are now standard on all 2018 F-650 and F-750 tractor models. The system will initially be optional on certain F-750 diesel air-braked straight trucks with high-center-of-gravity-body upfits.

For applications with high electrical demands – such as tow trucks, road service vehicles and other well-lit work trucks – a high-output 240-amp alternator is now available with the 6.8-liter V10 gasoline powertrain. Ordering the higher output alternator to power auxiliary lights and equipment can eliminate the need to specify a second alternator or generator.

Ford offers an optional automatic regeneration inhibitor on 2018 diesel trucks to give the operator more control over when the engine goes into regeneration to clean the diesel particulate filter.

To limit potential hood wear and front-end collision damage, an available bumper extension moves the full-width front bumper from flush with the grille to three inches in front of it. This provides additional protection to the grille and components behind it in case of a collision, potentially reducing repair expenses.

It’s easier to check the oil and transmission fluid levels on 2018 F-650 and F-750 diesel trucks thanks to relocated dipsticks that can be accessed from ground level. The transmission fluid dipstick has also been moved to provide ground-level access on gasoline models. The gasoline engine’s oil dipstick was already accessible from the ground.

Powertrains purpose-built for Ford trucks

Ford is the only manufacturer to design and build its own medium-duty diesel engine and transmission combination – ensuring the powertrain will work seamlessly with all chassis components and vehicle calibrations, and providing customers with streamlined service.

The 6.7-liter Power Stroke® V8 turbo diesel engine delivers best-in-class standard 270 horsepower and 675 lb.-ft. of torque, as well as available engine outputs of 300 horsepower with 700 lb.-ft. of torque and 330 horsepower with 725 lb.-ft. of torque. The diesel has a B10 engine design life of more than 500,000 miles***, and is backed by an unsurpassed standard five-year/250,000-mile limited warranty. For additional braking assistance, an exhaust brake comes standard with every diesel engine.

Ford’s segment-exclusive 6.8-liter V10 gasoline engine provides 320 horsepower and 460 lb.-ft. of torque for less than the cost of a diesel engine. It can be factory-prepped for conversion to compressed natural gas or liquid propane.

Both engines come with the Ford-built TorqShift heavy-duty six-speed automatic transmission. An available live-drive power takeoff provision features an output gear linked directly to the diesel engine crankshaft for 300 lb.-ft. of stationary torque and 200 lb.-ft. of mobile torque. For the gasoline powertrain, the optional power takeoff’s stationary and mobile mode deliver 250 lb.-ft. and 125 lb.-ft. of torque, respectively.

The transmission’s SelectShift® feature has two driver-initiated modes – progressive range select, which limits the range of gears to lock out overdrive for consistent speed over hills, and full manual mode, which provides control up and down the gearbox. Selectable tow/haul mode compensates for grade and load to reduce gear hunting and improve power delivery. Engine braking and selective gearing improve control on downhill grades and help minimize brake wear.

Like all Ford trucks, Ford’s medium-duty F-650 and F-750 vehicles are supported by the company’s Commercial Vehicle Center program. Program dealers nationwide are committed to providing fleet and commercial customers the vehicles, financing options and service support their businesses need to maximize productivity and uptime.

Ordering for 2018 Ford medium-duty F-650 and F-750 trucks begins this summer, with vehicles available at dealers this fall.

*Electronic stability control and traction control brakes will initially be optional on certain F-750 air-braked straight trucks with high-center-of-gravity-body upfits.

**Based on IHS Markit TIP registrations for gross vehicle weight Class 6-7 vehicles with sales over 1,000 units for calendar year-to-date December 2016 versus calendar year-to-date December 2015.

***B10 design life based on 330-horsepower output version and Ford engine dynamometer testing.

.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Layoffs at Avon Lake

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2017/05/05/ford-layoffs/101322856/

[Bob Rosadini]

Layoffs at Avon Lake

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2017/05/05/ford-layoffs/101322856/

So what is this statement all about?.................The laid-off employees are expected to return to work this fall when Ford begins building redesigned versions of the models, the spokeswoman said.

 

[fuzzymoomoo]

No clue, maybe a style update with that new 7.0L engine?

[MY93SHO]

 

Re: increased displacement on the 6.0L -- I think that might be a challenge. We're talking the same block dimensions as the 5.3L, right? GM has been able to get that up to 7.0L, but only in some exotic applications. I think they may need to 'clean sheet' their MD gas engine.

 

Re: Use of Duramax diesel -- so what it sounds like is that GM is basically planning to sit right on top of the same range as Ford -- neither more capacity nor less, which seems like it's going to come down to sales teams and pricing.

 

Another component: When was the last time a partnership with Navistar worked out? I mean, part of me thinks that GM is going to get burned just like everyone else.

 

Also: If we're looking at an International/GM joint venture that will be using diesel engines supplied by Isuzu, that's a lot of mouths to feed. If you're going to compete on price, that's a lot of different companies that are going to be taking a slice of your gross.

 

One of the reasons why Ford in-sourced everything on the F650/750, I'm sure, is because of the cost of guaranteeing a unit profit to Allison for the transmission, Cummins for the diesel, not to mention Navistar for the whole truck.

LSX crate motor is a 454/ 7.4L

[7Mary3]

 

So what is this statement all about?.................The laid-off employees are expected to return to work this fall when Ford begins building redesigned versions of the models, the spokeswoman said.

 

 

Phase-in of the redesigned dipstick! Sounds like they are matching production with demand, that's all.

[Bob Rosadini]

Phase-in of the redesigned dipstick! Sounds like they are matching production with demand, that's all.

Ouch!-my guess is all new brochures that refer to tractors without the phrase..."for towing applications"

But as the class 4-5 SD chassis are built there, could it be the 650-750 get the aluminum cab?

By the way-how are your Torqueshifts holding up? 550's @ 19500? and do they tow?

[RichardJensen]

LSX crate motor is a 454/ 7.4L

 

1) Is that block the same dimensions as the 5.3L block?

 

2) Would that be suitable for MD truck usage? I mean, my guess is that it isn't as they're not using it.

[Joe771476]

Here's some photos I haven't seen before:

 

 

http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/f650-f750/2017/...

[twintornados]

I have a question about the Torqshift 6 transmission....if it compares to Alisons' automatic and has an SAE bellhousing pattern, why doesn't Ford offer it up as an OEM fitment in other brands as a cost effective alternative to the Alison hammer-lock on OEM fitment?

[jpd80]

 

So what is this statement all about?.................The laid-off employees are expected to return to work this fall when Ford begins building redesigned versions of the models, the spokeswoman said.

It's a temporary move due to timing of fleets replacing a lot of work trucks later in the year.

It only applies to F650 and F750 production for the next three months or so.

 

I think we'll see a new alloy cab on the MDs completing uniformity across F Series.

Edited May 5, 2017 by jpd80

[Sevensecondsuv]

My understanding is that the 6.7L scorpion diesel shares it's bell housing pattern with the mod motors. Every diesel since the 6.0 has had that pattern I believe. That being the case, the torqueshift trans has a mod motor bellhousing pattern, not an SAE pattern.

[jpd80]

My understanding is that the 6.7L scorpion diesel shares it's bell housing pattern with the mod motors. Every diesel since the 6.0 has had that pattern I believe. That being the case, the torqueshift trans has a mod motor bellhousing pattern, not an SAE pattern.

Correct, the the older 6.0, 6.4 and 7.3 shared with Navistar also had Mod bolt pattern.

[7Mary3]

 

1) Is that block the same dimensions as the 5.3L block?

 

2) Would that be suitable for MD truck usage? I mean, my guess is that it isn't as they're not using it.

 

The LSX is a tall deck iron competition block, it shares all dimensions except height with most any other LS block. I am not sure if the LSX casting has a medium duty truck application 'as-is', but I think the general concept of a tall deck iron LS might.

[7Mary3]

I have a question about the Torqshift 6 transmission....if it compares to Alisons' automatic and has an SAE bellhousing pattern, why doesn't Ford offer it up as an OEM fitment in other brands as a cost effective alternative to the Alison hammer-lock on OEM fitment?

 

Probably due to production constraints and cost of developing stand-alone transmission control systems (can-bus). For the OEM's Allison transmissions are basically plug-and-play.

[jpd80]

 

The LSX is a tall deck iron competition block, it shares all dimensions except height with most any other LS block. I am not sure if the LSX casting has a medium duty truck application 'as-is', but I think the general concept of a tall deck iron LS might.

Maybe not Medium Duty but certainly possible for Heavy Duty - perhaps an option worth thinking about

as a 6.6 liter engine might be all that GM needs...