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Joe771476

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Posted (edited)

From what I can tell, I don't think the Ford diesel/Ford trans. is being offered in the Pierce Saber fire apparatus any longer.  I think they went to Cummins/Allison.  Ford got into diesels way too late.  They were a huge player in heavy trucks back in the 60's thru early 90's but refused for the most part to make their own diesel, instead throwing in Detroits, Cummins and Cat's.  They're 60 years too late!  By now they could have established Ford diesels as bullet proof. Now with everything going propane, natural gas and electric, who knows how much longer the diesel engine in general will be around anyway.  Meanwhile a few months ago it seemed that a Ford/Oshkosh venture would be the USPS's next mail truck.  It was basically a Transit.  Not sure what Oshkosh brought to the table unless they were the ones who upfitted it with the sliding doors.  But now I see Oshkosh alone will supply it and environmentalists are already complaining there's not enough electric versions in the contract.  Not sure what the basic engine is but i would be it's a GM (Govt. Motors) engine.  Also Oshkosh is making a JTLM military vehicle to replace the Humvee which does have a Duramax diesel. Lastly, I see in Amazon TV ads they use Sprinters and Ford Transits as seen in the background.  But here in CT, they've been using all Ram Promasters.  But now they've outgrown them and are using the standard UPS type parcel van and they are Freightliners!  Daimler wins again!  You can't beat 'em!  More on that later.   You can find links to the mail truck topics.  I'm not going to insert any here.

Edited by Joe771476

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My understanding is that Pierce has dropped the Powerstroke/Torq-Shift powertrain.  I don't think there was anything wrong with it, but very few if any were sold.  As for the Oshkosh Postal Vehicle, that remains shrouded in mystery!  Initially, Oshkosh's proposal was a heavily modified Ford Transit, but early on in the program that plan was dropped.  Never heard exactly why, but I suspect the proposed vehicle just couldn't meet the USPS spec..  Oshkosh parted company with Ford and went on alone with a their own dedicated design.  There is some speculation that Ford may be the ICE powertrain supplier for the Oshkosh Postal Vehicle, but I have not heard anything concrete on that yet.

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13 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

My understanding is that Pierce has dropped the Powerstroke/Torq-Shift powertrain.  I don't think there was anything wrong with it, but very few if any were sold.  As for the Oshkosh Postal Vehicle, that remains shrouded in mystery!  Initially, Oshkosh's proposal was a heavily modified Ford Transit, but early on in the program that plan was dropped.  Never heard exactly why, but I suspect the proposed vehicle just couldn't meet the USPS spec..  Oshkosh parted company with Ford and went on alone with a their own dedicated design.  There is some speculation that Ford may be the ICE powertrain supplier for the Oshkosh Postal Vehicle, but I have not heard anything concrete on that yet.

 

Correct, the Powerstroke/Torq-Shift combo was capable but could not surpass the Cummins/Allison combo in sheer popularity. I still believe (and I have no proof to back it up) that the Next Gen USPS vehicle will rest on a Ford supplied chassis/powertrain assembly (Transit stripped van).

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On 3/28/2021 at 8:57 AM, Joe771476 said:

Ford got into diesels way too late.  They were a huge player in heavy trucks back in the 60's thru early 90's but refused for the most part to make their own diesel, instead throwing in Detroits, Cummins and Cat's.  They're 60 years too late!  By now they could have established Ford diesels as bullet proof.

 

Ford did have their own "bullet proof" diesels - the 401/6.6 and 474/7.8 engines were used in those trucks alongside Cat/Cummins/DD diesel power and FE/385 gassers.  Those Ford diesels started in 1965 ag tractors and continued in various forms through about 2008 in New Holland stuff before emissions finally mandated a switch to the current Fiat-supplied motors.  Anyways, the 6.6 and 7.8 in trucks seem to be regarded as slow (but what wasn't back in the days of 200 hp Class 7 trucks?) but very reliable.

 

I never understood why Ford just walked away from that business and that engine line specifically.  Why was it the IH V8 diesel that went in pickups starting in the 80s instead of Ford's successful in-house 6.6L?

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23 minutes ago, Sevensecondsuv said:

 

Ford did have their own "bullet proof" diesels - the 401/6.6 and 474/7.8 engines were used in those trucks alongside Cat/Cummins/DD diesel power and FE/385 gassers.  Those Ford diesels started in 1965 ag tractors and continued in various forms through about 2008 in New Holland stuff before emissions finally mandated a switch to the current Fiat-supplied motors.  Anyways, the 6.6 and 7.8 in trucks seem to be regarded as slow (but what wasn't back in the days of 200 hp Class 7 trucks?) but very reliable.

 

I never understood why Ford just walked away from that business and that engine line specifically.  Why was it the IH V8 diesel that went in pickups starting in the 80s instead of Ford's successful in-house 6.6L?

 

Jac Nasser was the one who deep-sixed the entire Ford Heavy Truck operations and along with it, all those then in-house diesels.

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1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

Jac Nasser was the one who deep-sixed the entire Ford Heavy Truck operations and along with it, all those then in-house diesels.

 

I knew Jac Nasser was CEO when the decision was made and executed, I've just always wondered why.  Why walk away from the business the company spent decades cultivating and had become a major player in?  I understand many of the decisions Nasser made were unpopular at the time and didn't age well either.

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5 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Correct, the Powerstroke/Torq-Shift combo was capable but could not surpass the Cummins/Allison combo in sheer popularity. I still believe (and I have no proof to back it up) that the Next Gen USPS vehicle will rest on a Ford supplied chassis/powertrain assembly (Transit stripped van).

It was a good try for Ford to have the Powerstroke/Torq-Shift combo in Pierce apparatus, but I think the biggest reason it was not successful was it was only offered in Pierce's entry level chassis, and not for their heavier chassis that would be used for heavy rescue/arial/tankers, etc. and the departments spacing apparatus was trying to maintain some commonality in their fleets for ease of maintenance, they can get the Cummins/Allison combo in any apparatus they spec, not just Pierce.  Pierce is also their only choice if they want a Detroit Diesel engine, unless they get a Freightliner chassis.  Oshkosh (Pierce) still uses quite a few Ford chassis for smaller apparatus (mini pumpers/light rescue).

 

Ford has been really losing out in this area in terms of Ambulance chassis.  It wasn't that long ago, almost every Ambulance had an E-Series chassis.  Now, many have gone to Freightliner.  Even Ram is making serious inroads in this area.  At my own station two years ago, where we used to have 4 E-Series, it is now 1 GMC and 3 Freightliners.  The biggest concern was cab removal for service on the diesel and the Freightliner having a tighter turning radius than the F-Series, despite a $30,000 price difference.

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1 minute ago, Sevensecondsuv said:

 

I knew Jac Nasser was CEO when the decision was made and executed, I've just always wondered why.  Why walk away from the business the company spent decades cultivating and had become a major player in?  I understand many of the decisions Nasser made were unpopular at the time and didn't age well either.

 

Jac "the knife" was quoted at the time, "We could make a better return on our investment if we just put the money in the bank" or words to that effect.

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Posted (edited)

When looking at the Ford-Otosan truck models available, (on the website),

it is somewhat of a puzzle why some models of the Cargo aren't here in N.A. ,

and also the Ford powertrain used in Europe?

 

- So to answer my own question - (in my opinion), It would require a large effort, and be a major business decision, and

as usual , it is most likely the return on investment.

Still see L series trucks in service.

    And,  just speaking for my own experience and opinion - (mostly in the 70's/80's) -, the

Louisville was a much better truck to work with than the F series.

Edited by 40 Mile

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If Ford made a mistake exiting the heavy truck business, it was their timing.  In retrospect, they should have sold out before starting the HN80 program.  From what I understand, HN80 was late and over budget, and I suspect Freightliner would not have paid that much less for the operation without the New Louisville trucks.  Freightliner wanted the dealer network more than anything else, and though the HN80 had some potential it never materialized into a really great truck.  Certainly nothing like the 1970 Louisville was.  It was ironic that 'Sterling' never went anywhere, and a big reason for that was Freightliner's own growth in vocational class 7/8.  

 

Yeah, I though the Brazilian Cargo would have been a good addition to Ford's N.A. truck range, but it never happened.  The larger Otosan trucks would never fly here.  I have a feeling that Otosan will eventually team up with Traton............

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4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

If Ford made a mistake exiting the heavy truck business, it was their timing.  In retrospect, they should have sold out before starting the HN80 program.  From what I understand, HN80 was late and over budget, and I suspect Freightliner would not have paid that much less for the operation without the New Louisville trucks.  Freightliner wanted the dealer network more than anything else, and though the HN80 had some potential it never materialized into a really great truck.  Certainly nothing like the 1970 Louisville was.  It was ironic that 'Sterling' never went anywhere, and a big reason for that was Freightliner's own growth in vocational class 7/8.  

 

Yeah, I though the Brazilian Cargo would have been a good addition to Ford's N.A. truck range, but it never happened.  The larger Otosan trucks would never fly here.  I have a feeling that Otosan will eventually team up with Traton............

 

You are correct on your assumptions with the HN80 program.  In reality, Ford's return on investment in F650 and larger was terrible, quite frankly.  (Can't even say "return" on investment, really, given many years were in the red.)  Even to this day the F600-750 program is a drag on the company and nearly all my former co-workers at Ford wonder why they still bother with it.  Quite frankly, a small group of truck execs use the scare tactic to keep that program going.  They claim if the F600-750 trucks go away, it will hurt F250-550 sales.  Many people, including me, don't buy that theory.

 

The Sterling brand was mis-managed from the start.  Freightliner bought them because they were known as the "highway truck" and wanted to do better in vocational.  They didn't think they could convince people Freightliner could make a vocational truck and felt they needed a vocational brand.  Shockingly, instead of sinking their resources and money into doing that with sister-company Western Star, they decided to buy the Ford trucks and create Sterling.  For some reason, at that time, Western Star and Freightliner were running as two separate companies and not working together, despite being owned by the same people.  (Daimler.)  Western Star had a small, crappy dealer network so they said screw it, we'll make a new brand and get some other vocational dealers (the Ford stores) to retail vocational trucks instead.  

 

Fast-forward 10 years after that, with very little investment into Sterling during that time, EPA '07 and EPA '10 updates were on the horizon.  Daimler needed $500M to create a new cab for Sterling if they wanted to keep the brand.  They said screw it and now we'll just make vocational trucks with Freightliner instead.  (So the 114SD and 122SD were born.)  

 

Now another 10 years later, Freightliner is finally working with Western Star and jointly doing a "divide and conquer" approach on the vocational side.  Western Star has slowly been eliminating their small, crappy dealers in favor of doing dual-branded Freightliner and Western Star stores.  With that, Freightliner is now stepping back from the "Premium 8" market by discontinuing the 122SD next year, and they put all their money into the new Western Star 49X/47X programs which will replace the 4900/4700.  (The 49X was just released a few months ago, 47X is next year.)

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KW announces new class 5-7's.  Competition just gets tougher.

Kenworth’s new medium-duty lineup of vocational trucks features a “car like” driving experience, more room and a host of new safety options. - Photo: Jack Roberts

Kenworth’s new medium-duty lineup of vocational trucks features a “car like” driving experience, more room and a host of new safety options.

Photo: Jack Roberts

Refusing to cede the spotlight hot on the heels of the launch of the new, Next Generation T680 highway tractor, Kenworth has announced the launch of an all-new medium-duty truck line. The new line of trucks will cover Classes 4 through 7, with a new “Baby 8” configuration for mixer and dump applications.

 

The new line includes both straight trucks as well as tractor models and is the OEM’s first update of its medium-duty offerings since 2007 and the introduction of the first all-new models in almost 30 years.

The launch also marks the North American debut of the new Paccar TX-8 medium duty automatic transmission, an all-new ZF-designed gearbox that features a torque-converter and a robust, yet lightweight design that has been optimized for a wide range of applications from pickup and delivery to utility service and a variety of vocational applications.

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I'll bet that new KW will be priced quite a bit higher than the 650 and 750 Super Duty.  I was wondering who would be the first to use the new ZF transmissions, I have been hearing rumors Ram will use it in the HD's soon.

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9 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I'll bet that new KW will be priced quite a bit higher than the 650 and 750 Super Duty.  I was wondering who would be the first to use the new ZF transmissions, I have been hearing rumors Ram will use it in the HD's soon.

No doubt it will  but in those classes I think a lot of operators are willing to pay a premium just to keep good drivers.  Interesting that the article  mentioned class 4 and then in another section it stated lower end was class 5-so one way or another a typo.  And talk about catering to the market-they will have two cab heights with one 3 or 4 inches lower for certain applications where cab height is an issue.

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Posted (edited)

March was a good 84k sales month for F Series, F650/F750 barely passed 600 sales....

and I’m starting to think that F600 is  diverting more than a few of those buyers....

Edited by jpd80

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7 hours ago, jpd80 said:

March was a good 84k sales month for F Series, F650/F750 barely passed 600 sales....

and I’m starting to think that F600 is  diverting more than a few of those buyers....

 

JP...Well 3mos HD trucks are virtually double last years quarter.   Any clue what F-600 sales were in that huge gain.  As I think we all agree, F-600 at 22,000 GVW with a more "driver friendly" cab will for sure dominate the  "bed bug" market (U-haul).  But I still say a non CDL driver in a 26,000lb chassis will continue to be a very popular truck.-in particular when it comes to dump trucks aa  well as ability to  SAFELY pull and STOP trailers.  Think Paccar spent a lot of money on KW without a good feel for the medium market?

 

I  have to say the F-600's frame reinforcement is a bit of a turnoff for me when I look at the  straight one piece  rails on the GM/Navistar trucks.  Then again, I gather there is a lot of experience with that reinforcement on 450/550s for bucket truck installs so hopefully my fears are unfounded.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

JP...Well 3mos HD trucks are virtually double last years quarter.   Any clue what F-600 sales were in that huge gain.  As I think we all agree, F-600 at 22,000 GVW with a more "driver friendly" cab will for sure dominate the  "bed bug" market (U-haul).  But I still say a non CDL driver in a 26,000lb chassis will continue to be a very popular truck.-in particular when it comes to dump trucks aa  well as ability to  SAFELY pull and STOP trailers.  Think Paccar spent a lot of money on KW without a good feel for the medium market?

 

I  have to say the F-600's frame reinforcement is a bit of a turnoff for me when I look at the  straight one piece  rails on the GM/Navistar trucks.  Then again, I gather there is a lot of experience with that reinforcement on 450/550s for bucket truck installs so hopefully my fears are unfounded.

 

 

And that is the reason why Ford released sales for Q1 instead of March and Year to date, they don’t want us to see that of the 3,600 odd heavy truck sales for Q1, only 600 odd happened in March.....

 

that may have occurred because of the chip shortage but I doubt it, maybe order timing. The point is that the Q1 sales are being compared to where Ford was at Q1 last year which you really can’t in an atypical year. January and February sales of the MDs were much stronger but sales fell off a cliff last month.

 

Regardless of how we think sales will go with the MDs, the reality is that sales are very up and down and much less than they were pre 2020, we still don’t know if the low price draw of a gasoline F650 has worn off or not, so we still need to watch sales over the next few quarters as the recovery takes hold.

Edited by jpd80

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In retrospect, I wonder if 'Blue Diamond' wasn't a missed opportunity for Ford.  It enabled Ford to market a medium duty truck with a wide range of options at minimal cost.  I won't get into all the reasons why it didn't work, but looking at all the Chevy badged Isuzu's and GM/NAV trucks I saw today got me thinking about the variety of commercial trucks Chevy is offering these days at minimal cost through joint ventures.  And very shortly they are rumored to have a Cummins/Allison powered class 7 LCF through Isuzu and possibly a class 6/7 conventional through Navistar sometime later.  That's going to be quite some model lineup.

 

Wonder if Ford is thinking about a commercial truck partner.......

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If they have the production capacity, Paccar will get close enough to the heavy F series in pricing to capture some of Ford's volume- And doesn't hurt that while the heavy F series are pretty much "take it or leave it" options wise, Paccar will be happy to build to the buyer's spec with just about any compatable and legal combination of parts.

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On 3/28/2021 at 8:57 AM, Joe771476 said:

 Lastly, I see in Amazon TV ads they use Sprinters and Ford Transits as seen in the background.  But here in CT, they've been using all Ram Promasters.  But now they've outgrown them and are using the standard UPS type parcel van and they are Freightliners!  Daimler wins again!  You can't beat 'em!  More on that later.   You can find links to the mail truck topics.  I'm not going to insert any here.

I think Amazon is just buying whatever they can get their hands on. There's a big Amazon hub not far from my office, and they're using a nearby ex-Chebbie dealership as a storage/staging lot for their delivery vans; you ought to see that little beehive of activity at shift changes--there's a QuikTrip catty-cornered from the ex-Chebbie place, and you'd better not want to buy gas from them at certain times of day, because the islands are full to the gills with Amazon vans. At any rate, they're using Transits, Sprinters, and ProMasters, as well as Budget rentals (cargo and box vans) from out of Texas.

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On 3/28/2021 at 9:57 AM, Joe771476 said:

Lastly, I see in Amazon TV ads they use Sprinters and Ford Transits as seen in the background.  But here in CT, they've been using all Ram Promasters.  But now they've outgrown them and are using the standard UPS type parcel van and they are Freightliners!  Daimler wins again!  You can't beat 'em!  More on that later.   You can find links to the mail truck topics.  I'm not going to insert any here.

 

I've seen a number of Amazon Transit vans in Hamden, CT just in the past 2 days. Amazon has a hub close by in North Haven, CT that opened within the past 2 years. 

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4 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

I've seen a number of Amazon Transit vans in Hamden, CT just in the past 2 days. Amazon has a hub close by in North Haven, CT that opened within the past 2 years. 

 

I've noticed a few UPS style Amazon trucks around...those are build on Ford Chassis correct?

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52 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I've noticed a few UPS style Amazon trucks around...those are build on Ford Chassis correct?

 

All the Ford Amazon vehicles I've seen in the area were regular Ford Transit Vans. 

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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I've noticed a few UPS style Amazon trucks around...those are build on Ford Chassis correct?

 

Amazon's step van are supplied by Utilimaster, which offers Ford or Freightliner chassis on the larger step vans and Ford or Isuzu chassis on the smaller step vans. Amazon has the larger version but don't know which chassis Amazon chose.

 

 

 

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Amazon around here mostly runs large Transits, but lately I have been seeing a lot of Isuzu NPR's.  Don't know how much of their fleet is owned by them or contracted.  I guess a lot of their own vehicles will be dumped in a few years when they electrify. 

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