GearheadGrrrl Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 The Mack cab was designed in the late 70s to do the same job the R did so well- Day cab freight and vocational assignments with just a driver and the occasional helper on board. Put a 2 passenger right seat in or some equipment between the seats and the old Mack shows it's pre-STAA roots. But for all it's age and the fact it shares it's doors with the MH cabover, the old Mack cab actually has slightly better aerodynamics than Volvo's current conventional! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 10 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: The Mack cab was designed in the late 70s to do the same job the R did so well- Day cab freight and vocational assignments with just a driver and the occasional helper on board. Put a 2 passenger right seat in or some equipment between the seats and the old Mack shows it's pre-STAA roots. But for all it's age and the fact it shares it's doors with the MH cabover, the old Mack cab actually has slightly better aerodynamics than Volvo's current conventional! The CH was introduced in 88. I never thought the cab was constrained..at least for vocational use-for that matter I never thought the R was constrained. Now could it be constrained for an OO "hotshot" who has his wife and dog with him?..maybe. And I have never sat in an MD much less driven one, but for its intended vocational use, just how much seat space do you need? G'head says it utilizes CH doors. so the rest of the cab is unique to the MD? Given its likely volume, I am surprised Mack would not have used the cab.structure as well. Price wise, 33,000 gvw, same 6.7, Allison or Eaton trans, I'W, how do the FL, MV's stack up? I'm assuming the Paccar twins are at the highest end of the cost structure and of course a F-750 would be the very lowest priced. But again, what do I know as the owner of a B-61X. I've always wondered...what was Mack thinking when they introduced the "aerodynamic B" in '53 while still offering the spacious "L" with its big square windshields, and roomy, high seating position cab. A decision I'm sure driven by marketing types who put "change" before functionality.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamweasel Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 On 6/22/2023 at 10:28 AM, Bob Rosadini said: The CH was introduced in 88. I never thought the cab was constrained..at least for vocational use-for that matter I never thought the R was constrained. Now could it be constrained for an OO "hotshot" who has his wife and dog with him?..maybe. And I have never sat in an MD much less driven one, but for its intended vocational use, just how much seat space do you need? G'head says it utilizes CH doors. so the rest of the cab is unique to the MD? Given its likely volume, I am surprised Mack would not have used the cab.structure as well. Price wise, 33,000 gvw, same 6.7, Allison or Eaton trans, I'W, how do the FL, MV's stack up? I'm assuming the Paccar twins are at the highest end of the cost structure and of course a F-750 would be the very lowest priced. But again, what do I know as the owner of a B-61X. I've always wondered...what was Mack thinking when they introduced the "aerodynamic B" in '53 while still offering the spacious "L" with its big square windshields, and roomy, high seating position cab. A decision I'm sure driven by marketing types who put "change" before functionality.? Prior to Covid, usually the pricing on Class 7 mediums (when quoting the same specs) from what I saw was: Ford = The Cheapest Hino = $1-2K more than Ford International = $2-3K more than Ford Freightliner = $5K more than Ford Paccar = Anywhere between $3K to $7K more than Ford Paccar is the most erratic on pricing. When they want a deal they are not afraid to go low on the price, especially with mediums. Remains to be seen where Mack ends up as we've only quoted against them a couple times and deals these days are still about availability more so than price. As far as cab room, keep in mind - just like with Rangers and F-150/F-250's growing in size - people have just gotten accustomed to larger cabs so now when they sit in an old design (Ford / Mack / PACCAR) it's more noticeable. Drivers want space in their cab for their tools, lunchboxes, coolers, work helmets, jackets/vests, and so on. My favorite selling tactic against Ford / Mack / PACCAR and their small cabs is to ask the driver if they screen their drivers' size prior to hire. They look at me funny and I tell them you can't hire heavy set drivers with those smaller cabs so that limits the driver pool you can hire from even further. (Heavy set drivers won't fit in some of those cabs and/or will complain constantly if you do put them in one.) Buy our truck and you don't have to worry about it. This tactic works quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Interesting. We were buying Fords in the Blue Diamond days, but our upfit required @$5000 worth of modifications to the Ford, while the Freightliner could be ordered to require no modifications. Good by Ford. Since Freightliner offers the ISL/G (now the L9N) that locked them in. Won't look at another medium duty, and we will just order and wait if there are availability issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 8 hours ago, iamweasel said: Prior to Covid, usually the pricing on Class 7 mediums (when quoting the same specs) from what I saw was: Ford = The Cheapest Hino = $1-2K more than Ford International = $2-3K more than Ford Freightliner = $5K more than Ford Paccar = Anywhere between $3K to $7K more than Ford Paccar is the most erratic on pricing. When they want a deal they are not afraid to go low on the price, especially with mediums. Remains to be seen where Mack ends up as we've only quoted against them a couple times and deals these days are still about availability more so than price. As far as cab room, keep in mind - just like with Rangers and F-150/F-250's growing in size - people have just gotten accustomed to larger cabs so now when they sit in an old design (Ford / Mack / PACCAR) it's more noticeable. Drivers want space in their cab for their tools, lunchboxes, coolers, work helmets, jackets/vests, and so on. My favorite selling tactic against Ford / Mack / PACCAR and their small cabs is to ask the driver if they screen their drivers' size prior to hire. They look at me funny and I tell them you can't hire heavy set drivers with those smaller cabs so that limits the driver pool you can hire from even further. (Heavy set drivers won't fit in some of those cabs and/or will complain constantly if you do put them in one.) Buy our truck and you don't have to worry about it. This tactic works quite well. Thx, What is surprising to me is the number of Paccars..Petes in particular that are in the house to house fuel market up here in NE 33,000, 2700 gal tks. A market ford owned in the old days with LN-8000, and even C-8000's . A big Ford market and I can count the number of F-750s I've seen in that market-and those were old Cautilan 750s (Cat or Cummins) as well as a few Bluediamonds-no Ohio trucks. I think part of the Pete thing is they are candy when it comes to attracting help. My town DPW has been all International for big sixwheelers and Ford 550's for the small trucks. Just got a new F'liner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: Interesting. We were buying Fords in the Blue Diamond days, but our upfit required @$5000 worth of modifications to the Ford, while the Freightliner could be ordered to require no modifications. Good by Ford. Since Freightliner offers the ISL/G (now the L9N) that locked them in. Won't look at another medium duty, and we will just order and wait if there are availability issues. You have to think...you are selling a vocational truck. How could they be that stupid regarding the upfitter issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 After they bought Mack Volvo tried something similar. Mack had a lot of repeat vocational customers who knew exactly the frame layout they needed, and Mack built there trucks that way. Volvo comes in and decrees that all Volvo, Mack, Renault etc. trucks will use their common frame layout, probably for their convenience. Mack lost a lot of good customers over that and they never came back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 4 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: You have to think...you are selling a vocational truck. How could they be that stupid regarding the upfitter issue. In all fairness we have some very specific needs and though we are a 'big fish', we are not big enough for any manufacturer to really go out of their way for. The Freightliner M2-112 works well as it just happens to offer the right wheelbase, cab-to-end-of-frame (and clean rails), Allison 3000 transmission and CNG engine. We also want a class 7 de-rate so no CDL's for most employees. Still, I think the F-650 represents exactly were Ford wants to be in the medium duty game. It's a low cost truck for price-sensitive small fleets and municipalities looking for a basic class 6. It's designed to be sold and serviced by most car/light truck dealers which helps it's 'accessibilty'. Which brings me to another point. The big Ford commercial truck dealerships are for the most part a thing of the past these days. If for were to expand back into that market, they would need a dealer network to back it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 Ford is offering financial incentives to dealers who build new truck service centers with multiple high bays, etc.. But given how dealers were abandoned a quarter century ago when Ford sold off heavy trucks and the lack of even a basic tandem straight truck chassis in the lineup that ends at F750, how many dealers will bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Ford is offering financial incentives to dealers who build new truck service centers with multiple high bays, etc.. But given how dealers were abandoned a quarter century ago when Ford sold off heavy trucks and the lack of even a basic tandem straight truck chassis in the lineup that ends at F750, how many dealers will bother? The dealer I ordered/purchased my Maverick from did, and now their lot has more new "white" trucks on it than ever before. https://www.joecottonford.com/commercial-vehicle-center/ HRG Edited June 24, 2023 by HotRunrGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 12 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said: Ford is offering financial incentives to dealers who build new truck service centers with multiple high bays, etc.. But given how dealers were abandoned a quarter century ago when Ford sold off heavy trucks and the lack of even a basic tandem straight truck chassis in the lineup that ends at F750, how many dealers will bother? I think quite a few dealers will but the emphasis is on high roof Transits and stripped chassis step vans, along with F-450-600 trucks with specialized body equipment. But that's a whole different ball game than the open-all-night heavy duty truck centers of the past. Ford is trying to get car dealers interested in the lighter end of commercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted June 25, 2023 Author Share Posted June 25, 2023 On 6/24/2023 at 7:20 AM, GearheadGrrrl said: Ford is offering financial incentives to dealers who build new truck service centers with multiple high bays, etc.. But given how dealers were abandoned a quarter century ago when Ford sold off heavy trucks and the lack of even a basic tandem straight truck chassis in the lineup that ends at F750, how many dealers will bother? Great point GG. One betrayal hurts. If Ford did indeed re-enter class 8, they'd have to put in writing that they (Ford) would never abandon them again! It's these pesky overly powerful shareholders, no offense to any! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipnzap Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 From the the comments section of this article, a look into the mind and tastes, of a "typical" non-fleet van buyer: https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/06/chevrolet-express-sales-numbers-figures-results-first-quarter-2023-q1/ Do any of these comments track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted June 27, 2023 Author Share Posted June 27, 2023 On 6/17/2023 at 12:08 PM, akirby said: You don’t understand 250/350/2500/3500 pickups? Its the opposite of a niche market. Yes I do, and I bet they don't outsell Ford in the Northeast. Like I said before, I guess we live in the Twilight Zone here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 On 6/22/2023 at 10:28 AM, Bob Rosadini said: The CH was introduced in 88. I never thought the cab was constrained..at least for vocational use-for that matter I never thought the R was constrained. Now could it be constrained for an OO "hotshot" who has his wife and dog with him?..maybe. And I have never sat in an MD much less driven one, but for its intended vocational use, just how much seat space do you need? G'head says it utilizes CH doors. so the rest of the cab is unique to the MD? Given its likely volume, I am surprised Mack would not have used the cab.structure as well. Price wise, 33,000 gvw, same 6.7, Allison or Eaton trans, I'W, how do the FL, MV's stack up? I'm assuming the Paccar twins are at the highest end of the cost structure and of course a F-750 would be the very lowest priced. But again, what do I know as the owner of a B-61X. I've always wondered...what was Mack thinking when they introduced the "aerodynamic B" in '53 while still offering the spacious "L" with its big square windshields, and roomy, high seating position cab. A decision I'm sure driven by marketing types who put "change" before functionality.? Further to my comment on Mack's long ago decision to replace the spacious "L" cab with the "aero" B model . Note attached picture of a B-73 restoration that a friend of mine is just completing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 Very nice! Can you imagine those high back seats in a B model concave back cab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted July 5, 2023 Author Share Posted July 5, 2023 On 6/17/2023 at 12:08 PM, akirby said: You don’t understand 250/350/2500/3500 pickups? Its the opposite of a niche market. Yes I do, and I bet they don't outsell Ford in the Northeast. Like I said before, I guess we live in the Twilight Zone here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted July 5, 2023 Author Share Posted July 5, 2023 Anyway, I've asked before, butcan a normally spec'd F750 as a typical State DOT dump truck be outfitted with a sander and plow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 22 minutes ago, Joe771476 said: Yes I do, and I bet they don't outsell Ford in the Northeast. Like I said before, I guess we live in the Twilight Zone here! Well the Northeast isn’t the entire country is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 24 minutes ago, Joe771476 said: Yes I do, and I bet they don't outsell Ford in the Northeast. Like I said before, I guess we live in the Twilight Zone here! Well the Northeast isn’t the entire country is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Joe771476 said: Yes I do, and I bet they don't outsell Ford in the Northeast. Like I said before, I guess we live in the Twilight Zone here! I haven't seen the actual numbers in a while but in Connecticut, the Chevrolet/GMC pickups actually outsell Ford. Somewhere online a few years ago there was a map that showed which OEM was the leading pickup selling brand in each state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 46 minutes ago, ice-capades said: I haven't seen the actual numbers in a while but in Connecticut, the Chevrolet/GMC pickups actually outsell Ford. Somewhere online a few years ago there was a map that showed which OEM was the leading pickup selling brand in each state. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 5 hours ago, Joe771476 said: Anyway, I've asked before, butcan a normally spec'd F750 as a typical State DOT dump truck be outfitted with a sander and plow? Joe, Well based on'23 order guide you can get a 750 with 14,000 lb front axle and a 26,000 rear, which everything else being proper should give you a 40,000 GVW. but even with those axles max GVW you can get is 37,000. But as a practical matter, IMO I don 't think the 6.7 Power Stroke is up to that service and the Torque Shift trans even less so. The 550 with that power train is very popular around here with DPW's as they are "nimble" and good for cleaning up intersections and handling typical nuisance 4" snow falls but I can't see the 750 in a "conga line" on an interstate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 2 hours ago, akirby said: Interesting how Ram carries Utah-small market-probably a very aggressive Ram dealer???. Also I'm sure if Chev/GMC were combined I'm sure there would be far fewer Blue states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 24 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said: Interesting how Ram carries Utah-small market-probably a very aggressive Ram dealer???. Also I'm sure if Chev/GMC were combined I'm sure there would be far fewer Blue states. Haven’t been able to find numbers but F series and Silvererra combined are usually very close every year so I think it would still be close to 50/50. Also note that chart was from 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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