atomcat68 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Full speculation mode on The "two" manufacturer "deep" into planning and development is obvious given what we know... GM already on the record as saying they want to do a Wrangler like vehicle for GMC; and Ford Bronco whispers from Robert. The third company... maybe Toyota? They are probably looking around saying there is money to be made on a new 70 series Land Cruiser after seeing how much profit they made on the FJ. I was just going to say this! Another possibility is a new Land Rover Defender. Maybe Tata could be getting aggressive. Edited February 11, 2015 by atomcat68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I'm going to go with Land Rover as my pointless speculation based on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonga This is the point of interest... "In 1999 the production of the JONGA stopped. The Army auctioned and scrapped many of them and they were replaced by 4x4's manufactured by Mahindra vehicles. Though they are no longer in the service with the Indian Army they can still be spotted in the areas near famous military cantonments in India. Ironically the Indian Army has still not been able to find out its true substitute so far; as the diesel Mahindras have not yet proven themselves, and Gypsy Kings of Suzuki, are too light an off road vehicles to suit the military requirement." India has been looking for a new vehicle to replace this Jonga thing. It would be a great benefit to have the Indian government buy a new Jeep fighter and you can sell civilian version all over the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 I think there's very very very little chance that a company is going to build out a whole dealer network in the US just to sell a Wrangler competitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBirdStangSkyliner Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) I see little chance that Ford will bite off a lost cause, GM style, and directly compete against the Wrangler. This niche is rightfully won for all time by the Wrangler. Even the U.S. Forest Service officially refers to 4X4 vehicle trails as "Jeep trails". Perhaps, 1911 based pistols are the only other product to so solidly own a market segment. These are completely different types of products, but both markets are driven by interchangeable accessories and a tie to a tradition of performance. Ford may return to making a compact, off-road oriented 4X4. I think it would be more likely aimed at facilitating other types of adventures that happen in the backcountry in contrast to off-road driving, in and of itself, being the main activity. Updating the 2004 Bronco concept and adding four door and pickup options would be the most logical direction. Doing this would put it more in the Defender's wheelhouse than the Wrangler's. Rover may own this niche in Africa, but not in North America. Nissan showed when they made a real Pathfinder/Patrol that there is an international market for a capable, more modern, and less expensive Defender. Edited February 11, 2015 by TBirdStangSkyliner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 ...Even the U.S. Forest Service officially refers to 4X4 vehicle trails as "Jeep trails". ..... Two things come to mind; First, I am surprised that FCA or any of the other former companies that owned Jeep have not sued for trademark infringment and... Second, they can rename them "G.P." trails...for "General Purpose" which is the name that the Government originally called the Jeep... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 If Ford does come up with a new Bronco (or whatever F or E name they pick) to compete in the market space where the Wrangler is, there are several things it will not be. F150 based (too wide/tall/costly). Expedition based (too long/wide/costly). Explorer (CD4, D6, whatever) based (too costly). It will need to be competitive to the Wrangler in terms of price, size, and capability. The Wrangler is a fairly basic design, either 2 or 4 door that is relatively cheap to build due to old tech attributes. Not to say it is old tech, but the attributes are there when you look at frame, suspension, and bodywork. It is Jeep's primary entry level fully off road capable vehicle. And styling wise, any competitor will have to cater to the same potential buyers, so it cannot be too "butch" or too bland. The Wrangler appeals to the "rugged guys" with its looks, but also appeals to young women with its "cuteness factor". Tough to do. Just going after a part of that segment (a niche of a niche) with a more costly/larger/just more offering is asking for limited sales and poor market space penetration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 If Ford does come up with a new Bronco (or whatever F or E name they pick) to compete in the market space where the Wrangler is, there are several things it will not be. F150 based (too wide/tall/costly). Expedition based (too long/wide/costly). Explorer (CD4, D6, whatever) based (too costly). It will need to be competitive to the Wrangler in terms of price, size, and capability. The Wrangler is a fairly basic design, either 2 or 4 door that is relatively cheap to build due to old tech attributes. Not to say it is old tech, but the attributes are there when you look at frame, suspension, and bodywork. It is Jeep's primary entry level fully off road capable vehicle. And styling wise, any competitor will have to cater to the same potential buyers, so it cannot be too "butch" or too bland. The Wrangler appeals to the "rugged guys" with its looks, but also appeals to young women with its "cuteness factor". Tough to do. Just going after a part of that segment (a niche of a niche) with a more costly/larger/just more offering is asking for limited sales and poor market space penetration. Rumor is the next Wrangler will go aluminum, so it's not as if it'll be that "old". Also, Ford has a history in this type of vehicle with the Bronco (though it's obviously been a while since its been offered), so it's not like they'd be jumping into the market blind or inexperienced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I don't think Ford is going to compete directly with the Wrangler. I mean, that's almost like Toyota trying to compete with the F150! I think Ford will offer a capable off-roader with the tech and goodies and gadgets and better on-road characteristics than the Wrangler. It will be the vehicle for those that want a Jeep, but don't want to have to live with a Jeep every day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBirdStangSkyliner Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Two things come to mind; First, I am surprised that FCA or any of the other former companies that owned Jeep have not sued for trademark infringment and... Second, they can rename them "G.P." trails...for "General Purpose" which is the name that the Government originally called the Jeep... This was part of a nearly decade long practice to have nationally standard Motor Vehicle User Maps (MVUM's) so people would understand regulations and access regardless of where they visited. I was involved for a couple of years. The biggest concern was giving the impression of a product endorsement. The need for clarity and that clearance widths and engress, egress angles aren't being facilitated for all offroad capable vehicles ended-up driving the need to get more specific. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I think there's very very very little chance that a company is going to build out a whole dealer network in the US just to sell a Wrangler competitor. ? They would sell it in a Land Rover Dealer as the Defender. The old Land Rover Defender was sold here for a brief time before U.S. safety regs forced them to remove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 ? They would sell it in a Land Rover Dealer as the Defender. The old Land Rover Defender was sold here for a brief time before U.S. safety regs forced them to remove it. That would work great - for Land Rover. You do realize that Ford no longer owns Land Rover, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 That would work great - for Land Rover. You do realize that Ford no longer owns Land Rover, right? Yes, that's why in the first post I mentioned this I said Tata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Yes, that's why in the first post I mentioned this I said Tata. I didn't realize you were responding to the speculation of the other two companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 If this was going to happen, I think it would be available at Ford Dealers so no need for a separate dealer or brand. So, which platform? I speculate it would be on the C platform like the Transit Connect. It would be strengthen for off-road with some toys from the Raptor like Fox shocks for example and off road wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) I thought Atomcat was talking about *Mahindra* building a Jeep competitor. Regardless, you're not going to see a Jeep competitor from Land Rover. They don't know how to sell or manufacture to the Jeep price point. --- I tend to go along with those who see a less spartan SWB off-road capable vehicle instead of a true Wrangler competitor. I don't think you're going to see it positioned as a direct competitor to the Wrangler. Edited February 11, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Im with Richard on this...I DONT want to see anything too extreme/ narrow focused...I had a Defender as a Demo, was a hoot, but seriously was tiring as a daily, loud, bouncy, thirsty...but its off road chops were infamous. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 The new Troller is T6 based, isn't it? They would need to build a four door version tho. No it's not. It is still based on the previous Troller platform. It is fully converged with T6 on drivetrain... same engine and transmission choices; although that wasn't difficult because Troller began by buying Ford drivetrains to fit in their vehicles 10 years ago so they have always been compatible with Ford products from that standpoint. I have no doubt the next Troller will be fully based on the T7 Ranger program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I thought Atomcat was talking about *Mahindra* building a Jeep competitor. Regardless, you're not going to see a Jeep competitor from Land Rover. They don't know how to sell or manufacture to the Jeep price point. --- I tend to go along with those who see a less spartan SWB off-road capable vehicle instead of a true Wrangler competitor. I don't think you're going to see it positioned as a direct competitor to the Wrangler. Land Rover Defender is not exactly luxurious... it is very much in the same mold as Wrangler or Toyota Land Cruiser 70 series. But as you pointed out, Land Rover, and Toyota for that matter, cannot figure out how to build one to Wrangler's price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Sliding levers on the HVAC? Land Rover? Really? "Should I buy some old tab collars? Welcome back to the age of jive." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Im with Richard on this...I DONT want to see anything too extreme/ narrow focused...I had a Defender as a Demo, was a hoot, but seriously was tiring as a daily, loud, bouncy, thirsty...but its off road chops were infamous. IMHO, Ford's engineers might be able to surprise us with a shortened AWD Focus platform, with high-tech long-travel struts and 2.0/2.3 engines. The interesting question to ponder is if and how they will provide a "low range", and if the 9-speed will be used? The Jeep rock crawlers and those that are BOF RWD 4x4 fans won't like it, but it could have a possible business case as a "mini-Raptor" — but I could be mistaken. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Sliding levers on the HVAC? Land Rover? Really? "Should I buy some old tab collars? Welcome back to the age of jive." "Where have you've been hiding out lately Honey?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Are you gonna cruise the miracle mile? Edited February 11, 2015 by akirby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 You're going to have to wait a while before you can get yourself a blue Continental. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 You get more mileage from a cheap pair of sneakers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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