New Ford EcoBlue turbodiesel engine debuts amid diesel woes

[tbone]

I don't really like it either. I feel it's getting old. It's the EPA numbers on the sticker that matter to people the most. I would have preferred they had stuck with Twinforce back in the day.

[bzcat]

I've been reading more about the new EcoBlue engine and doing some reading between the lines, I think I figured out what it going on here with this new family vs. the PSA diesels.

 

The below is my speculation of what Ford's I4 diesel engine strategies based on what I read and can infer:

 

1. EcoBlue will replaced the "Puma" family diesel. Puma is the Ford designed engine used in Transit and Ranger (including the 3.2 I5) as well as some PSA vans. Previously, Ford use Puma in passenger cars too but switched to PSA DW engines to ensure Euro IV and Euro V compliance. The 2.0 EcoBlue will initially have 3 output levels: 105 hp, 130hp, and 170hp, which roughly will replace the Puma 2.2, 2.4 and 3.2, respectively. It is important for Ford to have its own diesel engines for Transit and Ranger because these are core products for Ford and it doesn't want to pay PSA royalties to use PSA engines.

 

2. Ford suggested in the press release that there will be a 1.5 version of EcoBlue. I'm almost 100% sure this 1.5 EcoBlue will replace the PSA designed "DLD" family of 1.4 and 1.5/1.6 diesel used in Ford passengers cars - e.g. Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, B-Max, C-Max, EcoSport, Kuga, Transit Courier, Transit Connect. This makes sense because Ford sells a moderate amount of smaller diesel vehicles outside of Europe so it can build this smaller version of EcoBlue in India (for example) without paying PSA royalties, like it does now.

 

3. Ford is probably still working with PSA to develop a 2.0 diesel to replace "PSA DW" 2.0 (Ford only use 2.0 but PSA uses 2.0 and 2.2 liter versions) that is currently used in Focus, Mondeo, S-Max, Galaxy, and Edge. Ford doesn't mind paying for PSA engine for these cars because they are only used in Europe. It's probably cheaper for Ford go this route and avoid the capital investments needed to build new diesel engine manufacturing capacity in Europe. The existing Ford capacity in UK will be used to manufacture EcoBlue for worldwide use.

 

My take - The decision to use PSA DW 2.0 instead of Puma 2.0 in passengers cars had to do with the original Ford-PSA alliance when Ford was behind the 8-ball on Euro IV and Euro V compliance. EU rules mandated that passenger car had to meet tougher standards sooner than commercial vans and thus, Ford had more time to bring its Puma engine up to Euro IV and Euro V if it only used it in Transit and not Mondeo.

 

Fast forward to now... we are in Euro VI for both passenger and commercial vehicles (hence the new EcoBlue family to replace the Puma) so the only reason why Ford still need PSA would be to ensure adequate volume of engine supply and a hedge against the need for capital investment, not for compliance reasons. Based on this premise, it seems plausible that some Euro-only or Euro-centric diesel models with 2.0 diesel (e.g. Mondeo, S-Max etc) will continue with PSA engines. But the the worldwide vehicles with larger diesel engines (e.g. Ranger, Transit) as well as all diesel models with 1.5 diesel (Focus, Kuga, Mondeo etc) will switch to the EcoBlue family whenever they are replaced.

Edited May 18, 2016 by bzcat

[Hugh]

Why? You may not like it, but it's rock solid branding.

http://jalopnik.com/fords-ecoboost-is-just-a-really-good-marketing-scheme-1733576779

 

Once for for s#!ts and giggles.

[jasonj80]

I know that a year ago Ford was going to launch diesel in the US in mass market passenger utility vehicles (Escape/Edge/Explorer) later this decade. However this was all before the VW Diesel disaster, I'm not sure if those plans have changed now but they were doing it for CAFE, it wouldn't surprise me if they still don't show up. With Diesel going in the F-150 and Ford's marketing machine they might be the only one to do it. While not scientific at all from what I see to non car people they think the inherent problem with VW was cheating and not with the diesel itself they think VW as a whole has emission issues.

[silvrsvt]

I know that a year ago Ford was going to launch diesel in the US in mass market passenger utility vehicles (Escape/Edge/Explorer) later this decade. However this was all before the VW Diesel disaster, I'm not sure if those plans have changed now but they were doing it for CAFE, it wouldn't surprise me if they still don't show up. With Diesel going in the F-150 and Ford's marketing machine they might be the only one to do it. While not scientific at all from what I see to non car people they think the inherent problem with VW was cheating and not with the diesel itself they think VW as a whole has emission issues.

 

 

Going on what Ford has put into powerpoint presentations, adding Diesels to light passenger vehicles was always an option, but given the fact that increase in MPGs isn't that much higher then a gas powered vehicle when emissions aren't being cheated on with higher operating/entry costs then a gas powered vehicle, I don't see the appeal for most people.

[jpd80]

 

 

Going on what Ford has put into powerpoint presentations, adding Diesels to light passenger vehicles was always an option, but given the fact that increase in MPGs isn't that much higher then a gas powered vehicle when emissions aren't being cheated on with higher operating/entry costs then a gas powered vehicle, I don't see the appeal for most people.

There is a distinct and real fuel economy advantage when you get diesels into larger / heavier vehicles,

nore than say Focus and Fiesta for example. The other point is that the better fuel economy tends to be

more consistent where as GDIT tends to drop away with more variation of the throttle.

 

It's a fine but distinct point that only becomes apparent once youve driven a diesel powered

SUV or light trucks for a while. Some people will value that while to many ti may be a wash

or simply expected as a way of increasing flee fuel economy.

[silvrsvt]

There is a distinct and real fuel economy advantage when you get diesels into larger / heavier vehicles,

nore than say Focus and Fiesta for example. The other point is that the better fuel economy tends to be

more consistent where as GDIT tends to drop away with more variation of the throttle.

 

It's a fine but distinct point that only becomes apparent once youve driven a diesel powered

SUV or light trucks for a while. Some people will value that while to many ti may be a wash

or simply expected as a way of increasing flee fuel economy.

 

In the US at least, Diesels are only found in Small cars (VW Golf) or Heavy Duty Full-sized Pickups, outside of Luxury cars, where they are an option.

 

I don't see people jumping over themselves to pay an extra say 3000 for the Diesel experience. I was poking around on the Ford website and a Fusion Ti Hybrid is the same price as the Gas model..the SE Hybrid is about $2000 more vs the regular SE gas model. Heck the Accord Hybrid would give nearly the same numbers or better then what I would expect from a Diesel powered one (50 city and 45 highway)

[J-150]

 

In the US at least, Diesels are only found in Small cars (VW Golf) or Heavy Duty Full-sized Pickups, outside of Luxury cars, where they are an option.

 

I don't see people jumping over themselves to pay an extra say 3000 for the Diesel experience. I was poking around on the Ford website and a Fusion Ti Hybrid is the same price as the Gas model..the SE Hybrid is about $2000 more vs the regular SE gas model. Heck the Accord Hybrid would give nearly the same numbers or better then what I would expect from a Diesel powered one (50 city and 45 highway)

And yet Ram is selling every Ecodiesel they can. The Canyonero is coming with a diesel. In Canada, Mercedes is seeing a 50+% take rate on diesels across the board in all models.

 

There is potential in models outside of compacts and class 3 pickups.

[silvrsvt]

And yet Ram is selling every Ecodiesel they can. The Canyonero is coming with a diesel. In Canada, Mercedes is seeing a 50+% take rate on diesels across the board in all models.

 

There is potential in models outside of compacts and class 3 pickups.

 

If your limited by the amount you can produce, are you really selling everyone you can?

 

Comparing a luxury car to the rest of the automotive market isn't indicative of where its going.

 

For example, in the US you have to go to a E Class Mercedes to get a Diesel..the car already costs $45K+ and going with the Ecodesiel adds about 4K on to it...or almost 10% of the total cost. Start adding an extra 3K to a car that starts at 22K (like the Fusion) its more like 13% of the total car price.

[akirby]

Exactly - on a larger more expensive vehicle the percentage cost increase is smaller and you get more benefit from the better mpg.

 

On a small vehicle that costs $20K and already gets 35 mpg it's much harder to justify the added cost.

[J-150]

 

If your limited by the amount you can produce, are you really selling everyone you can?

 

Comparing a luxury car to the rest of the automotive market isn't indicative of where its going.

 

For example, in the US you have to go to a E Class Mercedes to get a Diesel..the car already costs $45K+ and going with the Ecodesiel adds about 4K on to it...or almost 10% of the total cost. Start adding an extra 3K to a car that starts at 22K (like the Fusion) its more like 13% of the total car price.

I'm not saying that diesel will be 50% of the market. I'm saying dont discount consumer demand. I'd love a small car diesel for commuting, but refuse to buy VW. The lack of widespread availability is masking consumer demand.

[bzcat]

The lack of widespread availability is not masking demand. It is reflective of the demand.

 

It's easy to say you want a diesel car but you didn't contextualize it by saying how much of a price premium you are willing to pay. Car companies are not all stupid. If there was significant untapped demand in the US & Canadian market for something, someone will figure out a way to meet it.

Edited May 20, 2016 by bzcat

[J-150]

The lack of widespread availability is not masking demand. It is reflective of the demand.

 

 

Former demand. If you can sell the same old, you don't need to innovate. Ask GM and Ford how that worked out for market share and profits.

[J-150]

For the record, I'd pay for it. I'm a high mileage driver that would see the savings.

Edited May 20, 2016 by J-150

[jpd80]

Exactly - on a larger more expensive vehicle the percentage cost increase is smaller and you get more benefit from the better mpg.

 

On a small vehicle that costs $20K and already gets 35 mpg it's much harder to justify the added cost.

True, there's less cache in improving the fuel economy of an already efficient vehicle (small cars)

but once we talk about Edge, Explorer and Expedition, the economics and perception changes.

The europeans already have a 2.0 diesel in Edge, the fuel economy is pretty good..

[fuzzymoomoo]

For the record, I'd pay for it. I'm a high mileage driver that would see the savings.

But how much? Would pay a premium above ecoboost? Because that's what it might take.

[J-150]

But how much? Would pay a premium above ecoboost? Because that's what it might take.

Not playing that game. You spend your money how you like, I'll spend mine how I like and the fact is I would take a diesel over an ecoboost in a heartbeat if it was available.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Not playing that game. You spend your money how you like, I'll spend mine how I like and the fact is I would take a diesel over an ecoboost in a heartbeat if it was available.

don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to play games. I was just wondering if you personally had a number in mind.

[rmc523]

Not playing that game. You spend your money how you like, I'll spend mine how I like and the fact is I would take a diesel over an ecoboost in a heartbeat if it was available.

I don't think his statement was intended as an attack/criticism/"game".....I think it's a legitimate question.

 

No matter how accepting of diesels or willing to purchase one, there would be a tipping point in price at which it wouldn't be feasible or realistic to purchase one over a gas engine.

[jpd80]

Ford now this new 2.0 Diesel is only intended to replace existing 2.0 and 2.2 engines

and then probably restricted to European sales. Once that is stabilized I think we will see

the other Puma engine plants switch over to the new engine family, probably be a full line of

capacities by then to suit the whole range of vehicles.

[J-150]

If everything was only about price and payback we wouldn't be seeing the MSRPS that Ford was enjoying.

 

I get it. There are business cases to offer alternative engines or new models. But that doesn't mean people wouldn't buy them if offered.

Edited May 21, 2016 by J-150

[akirby]

If everything was only about price and payback we wouldn't be seeing the MSRPS that Ford was enjoying.

I get it. There are business cases to offer alternative engines or new models. But that doesn't mean people wouldn't buy them if offered.

It does affect how many you can sell though. The lower you get in price the more important price becomes over performance or fuel economy. Very few would pay a $3k or $4K premium on a $20K focus or fiesta.

[jpd80]

and Cruze diesel was not the success some were expecting,

that's why using diesel in heavier Utilites is probably a better plan

[bzcat]

and Cruze diesel was not the success some were expecting,

that's why using diesel in heavier Utilites is probably a better plan

 

I don't think anyone expected Cruze diesel to be a huge success. Even GM knew it was not going to be a big seller.

 

The problem is going to be profit margin. Due to the extra emission equipment required, diesel in small cars are doomed not just in US, but everywhere else where emission controls are actually enforced. You won't see that many small diesel cars in Europe a decade from now... they will mostly be PHEV or hybrids.

 

Diesel in larger vehicles will still be viable but mainly because those vehicles have higher margins with buyers able to pay the price premium.

[J-150]

and Cruze diesel was not the success some were expecting,

that's why using diesel in heavier Utilites is probably a better plan

They didn't market it properly. Most people didn't know it was offered