silvrsvt Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 http://jalopnik.com/brand-new-chevrolet-camaros-are-absurdly-cheap-right-no-1787662886?rev=1476217160476&utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 So here's the question re: Ford's declining sales YTD Is Ford being more disciplined than GM, FCA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbevo Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 This doesn't surprise me at all. The Camaro is a good (but overpriced) performance car, but that's about it. The interior package and sight lines are awful. AWFUL. I've driven it and spent some time in it and couldn't wait to get out of it. Typical GM - they spend a fortune to beat the Mustang on the track but instead build a direct competitor to the Corvette. Looks like crap, too, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 So here's the question re: Ford's declining sales YTD Is Ford being more disciplined than GM, FCA? Is that a trick question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Is that a trick question? sounds more like a baiting question to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 And with the 2016 Mustang, you'll be lucky to see $750 cash 1.9% for 60 months or, 3.9% for 72 months.......that's why Camaro is catching up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Could this be described as a fire sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Could this be described as a fire sale? that's how I would describe it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 GM has been running 20% off specific models for quite some time in addition to "we'll finance you regardless of your credit score". That's why you can't go by one or even two months of sales - look at YTD instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Is Ford being more disciplined than GM, FCA? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 No. Based on what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Ford and GM incentive spending is the same with GM typically ahead slightly, but their cars are also more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Based on what? Based on "Ford's declining sales YTD", as mentioned in post #2. That's not evidence of Ford being more disciplined than GM or FCA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Based on "Ford's declining sales YTD", as mentioned in post #2. That's not evidence of Ford being more disciplined than GM or FCA. So, if GM or FCA could sell 1 Million cars at $1 profit each, that would be better than Ford selling 100k cars at $10k profit each? It's all about the sales numbers, is it? Ford would not be more disciplined there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Based on "Ford's declining sales YTD", as mentioned in post #2. That's not evidence of Ford being more disciplined than GM or FCA. I don't think you understand what disciplined means. Continuing to produce and sell vehicles and being forced to put bigger and bigger incentives on them in a declining market is undisciplined. It erodes profits and long term hurts resale and keeps overhead unnecessarily high. Reducing production to match actual demand and keeping incentives in check retains profitability even in a retracting market. Also not expanding production capacity in anticipation of a downturn - remember when Ford canceled Flat Rock fusion production? Looks like a wise move now. The real test will be profits over the next few quarters. I expect Ford to drop a little but GM to drop a lot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 According to some, Ford needs all new cars every 4 years and that will solve "everything"!. Since car magazines say so and "we need to brag about newness" to get sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKX1960 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 According to some, Ford needs all new cars every 4 years and that will solve "everything"!. Since car magazines say so and "we need to brag about newness" to get sales. I agree with this. With technology advancing so fast these days, you can be pretty outdated in just a couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) The real test will be profits over the next few quarters. The question asked in the second post, paraphrased: "Is Ford's declining sales YTD evidence that Ford is being more disciplined than GM or FCA?" Answer is no. Ford's YTD sales decline is not sufficient information to conclude Ford is being more disciplined than GM or FCA. I agree the real test will be profits for the rest of the year. Ford earnings in the second quarter fell short of analyst estimates. GM and FCA both beat their respective estimates for that quarter. I don't expect things to get any better for Ford in third and fourth quarters. Edited October 12, 2016 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbevo Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Yeah, my guess is that GM is probably handling their incentives a bit better and with more discipline at the moment, only because they have some very competitive new offerings that are commanding pricing, and they’re selling a gazillion Escalades and Tahoes. .... which will of course bode well for their 3Q / 4Q earnings. And of course they’ll brag and brag and brag about how much better they are at everything than the "domestic competition". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 The question asked in the second post, paraphrased: "Is Ford's declining sales YTD evidence that Ford is being more disciplined than GM or FCA?" Answer is no. Ford's YTD sales decline is not sufficient information to conclude Ford is being more disciplined than GM or FCA. I agree the real test will be profits for the rest of the year. Ford earnings in the second quarter fell short of analyst estimates. GM and FCA both beat their respective estimates for that quarter. I don't expect things to get any better for Ford in third and fourth quarters. Who gives a crap about "analyst's estimates"? It's all nothing but sheer speculation and made up numbers that don't actually affect Ford's bottom line. I'll agree that the sales decline alone doesn't prove discipline, but you can see it in almost every facet of how Ford and GM operate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Yeah, my guess is that GM is probably handling their incentives a bit better Is Ford offering 20% off any vehicles? Are they pushing subprime financing? Are they cutting production on slow sellers instead of raising incentives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) Who gives a crap about "analyst's estimates"? It's all nothing but sheer speculation and made up numbers that don't actually affect Ford's bottom line. I'll agree that the sales decline alone doesn't prove discipline, but you can see it in almost every facet of how Ford and GM operate. I'm sure executives at those companies care at least a little about analyst estimates. Even if we ignore them, Ford's 2Q earnings this year represented a decline over last year, while GM and FCA both increased their earnings in the same period. As you mentioned earlier, results for the next few quarters will be interesting to see. Taking sales declines out of the picture: In terms of operations, GM is the most "disciplined" of the three (GM, Ford, FCA). GM has the broadest vehicle lineup, the most award winning products, the lowest dependence on fleet sales, the most extensive presence in the major markets for cars, trucks, and related services globally, and is the best positioned for upcoming developments in alternate fuel and electric cars. Edited October 12, 2016 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I'm sure executives at those companies care at least a little about analyst estimates. Even if we ignore them, Ford's 2Q earnings this year represented a decline over last year, while GM and FCA both increased their earnings in the same period. As you mentioned earlier, results for the next few quarters will be interesting to see. Taking sales declines out of the picture: In terms of operations, GM is the most "disciplined" of the three (GM, Ford, FCA). GM has the broadest vehicle lineup, the most award winning products, the lowest dependence on fleet sales, the most extensive presence in the major markets for cars, trucks, and related services globally, and is the best positioned for upcoming developments in alternate fuel and electric cars. Please check out FCA's NET numbers and get back to me about how well they're doing. As far as GM being 'more disciplined' due to their 'broader lineup', please explain to me why it is that Ford has outearned GM in absolute numbers and per unit profit on a regular basis over the last twenty-five years? Why is it that GM hasn't turned a full year profit in Europe in fifteen years? Why does Ford have a significantly higher margin in China? Why did GM go bankrupt in 2009, when even then they had 'the most extensive presence in the major markets....'? In hindsight, we may see the second half of this year as GM and Chrysler's attempts to extend the peak of this business cycle as being an expensive way of pulling ahead sales. Ford learned more by not going bankrupt than GM and FCA learned by going bankrupt. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Disciplined - you keep using that word but it doesn't mean what you think it means. Yes they have more products and in some cases they've been very successful. In other cases they have not. I'll let Richard explain the financial reports issues. Let's just say it's not apples to apples. As for fleet sales - that's a key profit generator for Ford and GM would love to have that type of fleet business. They're not fleet dumping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 The Camaro 1LS returns also http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/10/starting-price-of-2017-chevrolet-camaro-lowered-new-base-1ls-trim/ $26-27k for the coupe and convertible. 2.0 or 3.6 are the only engine options also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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