rmc523 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 So they made the 3.0L 400/400 powertrain "standard" by only debuting the Reserve, Black Label, and Grand Touring versions. So I'm sure other trims with lesser engines will arrive eventually - whether that's at launch, or for the following model year, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 (edited) On 11/30/2018 at 10:36 AM, fuzzymoomoo said: I think it was you that also speculated that all C2 really is is a front wheel drive version of CD6. Maybe internally they’re treating it as such anyway. I doubt that is the case. There is no reason to saddle C2 with all the stuff that will be needed to handle 600 lb-ft of torque. The reason CD6 and C2 are two different thing is all because the investments around the 10 speed longitude transmission and RWD (read F-150) hybrid system. Since none of the C2 vehicles that I can imagine will ever need 10 speed auto arranged in longitudinal orientation to avoid torque steer, there is basically no reason to marry the C2 and CD6 programs together. The very fundamental problem is the placement of the firewall... C2 doesn't need all that room between the front wheel axle and the dash to account for longitude engine placement. As to whether Edge and Nautilus will be C2 or CD6... I don't know. There is business case to be made for either. If Aviator is lined up to compete with Audi Q7, BMW X7, and Mercedes GLS (it seems that way based on dimension... all 4 vehicles all roughly 200" long) , then we'd fully expect Nautilus to engage with Q8, X5, and GLE - and RWD + 10 speed seems like a decent bet. However, on the other hand, Ford really doesn't need the higher cost baked into RWD and fancy PHEV option if most of the Edge sold will be equivalent to the exiting 2.0 EB... it seems more likely it will continue to have transverse engine and more mass market appeal. Perhaps the answer is that they go their separate ways... Nautilus become more like a 5 seat Aviator while Edge remains what it is today. Edited December 3, 2018 by bzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 22 minutes ago, rmc523 said: So they made the 3.0L 400/400 powertrain "standard" by only debuting the Reserve, Black Label, and Grand Touring versions. So I'm sure other trims with lesser engines will arrive eventually - whether that's at launch, or for the following model year, I don't know. I wouldn’t think Lincoln would offer anything less than the 2.7 in the Aviator. IMHO the 3.3 and 2.3 aren’t premium enough for this price point. I hope Lincoln offers just the 2 3.0 power plants in all versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 minute ago, bzcat said: I doubt that is the case. There is no reason to saddle C2 with all the stuff that will be needed to handle 600 lb-ft of torque. The reason CD6 and C2 are two different thing is all because the investments around the 10 speed longitude transmission and RWD (read F-150) hybrid system. Since none of the C2 vehicles that I can imagine will ever need 10 speed auto arranged in longitudinal orientation to avoid torque steer, there is basically no reason to marry the C2 and CD6 programs together. The very fundamental problem is the placement of the firewall... C2 doesn't need all that room between the front wheel axle and the dash to account for longitude engine placement. As to whether Edge and Nautilus will be C2 or CD6... I don't know. There is business case to be made for either. If Aviator is lined up to compete with Audi Q7, BMW X7, and Mercedes GLS (it seems that way based on dimension... all 4 vehicles all roughly 200" long) , then we'd fully expect Nautilus to engage with Q8, X5, and GLE - and RWD + 10 speed seems like a decent bet. However, on the other hand, Ford really doesn't need the higher cost baked into RWD and fancy PHEV option if most of the Edge sold will be equivalent to the exiting 2.0 EB... it seems more likely it will continue to have transverse engine and more mass market appeal. Perhaps the answer is that they go their separate ways... Nautilus become more like a 5 seat Aviator while Edge remains what it is today. I would say that C2 is "like" CD6 only in that it is a flexible platform. That's about it. On the Edge front, I'd rather see the Edge/Nautilus stay FWD/AWD biased. I think in that midsized CUV it makes more sense. But my guess is that the 2 row RWD biased vehicle is what the Bronco is going to slot into. With the Bronco name, I don't know if they need Linconln variant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, bzcat said: I doubt that is the case. There is no reason to saddle C2 with all the stuff that will be needed to handle 600 lb-ft of torque. The reason CD6 and C2 are two different thing is all because the investments around the 10 speed longitude transmission and RWD (read F-150) hybrid system. Since none of the C2 vehicles that I can imagine will ever need 10 speed auto arranged in longitudinal orientation to avoid torque steer, there is basically no reason to marry the C2 and CD6 programs together. The very fundamental problem is the placement of the firewall... C2 doesn't need all that room between the front wheel axle and the dash to account for longitude engine placement. As to whether Edge and Nautilus will be C2 or CD6... I don't know. There is business case to be made for either. If Aviator is lined up to compete with Audi Q7, BMW X7, and Mercedes GLS (it seems that way based on dimension... all 4 vehicles all roughly 200" long) , then we'd fully expect Nautilus to engage with Q8, X5, and GLE - and RWD + 10 speed seems like a decent bet. However, on the other hand, Ford really doesn't need the higher cost baked into RWD and fancy PHEV option if most of the Edge sold will be equivalent to the exiting 2.0 EB... it seems more likely it will continue to have transverse engine and more mass market appeal. Perhaps the answer is that they go their separate ways... Nautilus become more like a 5 seat Aviator while Edge remains what it is today. Better yet. Split Edge and Nautilus - put Edge on FWD-based C2, and let Nautilus move to a short RWD CD6 so it can truly play with the big boys. 5 minutes ago, Trader 10 said: I wouldn’t think Lincoln would offer anything less than the 2.7 in the Aviator. IMHO the 3.3 and 2.3 aren’t premium enough for this price point. I hope Lincoln offers just the 2 3.0 power plants in all versions. Yeah, that could be the true base powertrain (the 2.7T). I wasn't saying a 2.0 would be standard, just that the 3.0T is probably not the true base powertrain when everything is unveiled. It gave them wow headlines at the show, which was a smart play, and they can quietly slip in a lesser trim/powertrain at a later date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, 92merc said: I would say that C2 is "like" CD6 only in that it is a flexible platform. That's about it. On the Edge front, I'd rather see the Edge/Nautilus stay FWD/AWD biased. I think in that midsized CUV it makes more sense. But my guess is that the 2 row RWD biased vehicle is what the Bronco is going to slot into. With the Bronco name, I don't know if they need Linconln variant. I agree... and Bronco makes it more likely Edge will stay FWD. I don't see why Lincoln will need a SUV based on Ranger chassis... it is very off-brand for what they are trying to do. So that makes it potentially more likely that Nautilus will switch to longitude engine to take advantage of potential higher power output options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 28 minutes ago, bzcat said: I doubt that is the case. There is no reason to saddle C2 with all the stuff that will be needed to handle 600 lb-ft of torque. The reason CD6 and C2 are two different thing is all because the investments around the 10 speed longitude transmission and RWD (read F-150) hybrid system. Since none of the C2 vehicles that I can imagine will ever need 10 speed auto arranged in longitudinal orientation to avoid torque steer, there is basically no reason to marry the C2 and CD6 programs together. The very fundamental problem is the placement of the firewall... C2 doesn't need all that room between the front wheel axle and the dash to account for longitude engine placement. You missed the earlier part of the conversation. I said that C2 is the FWD/AWD transverse version of what the media reported as "D6 architecture" which could be FWD or RWD. I assume that C2 and CD6 will share battery location and other things but not drivetrains (obviously). So D6 "architecture" yields C2 and CD6. In other words, there won't be a FWD CD6 or a RWD C2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Better yet. Split Edge and Nautilus - put Edge on FWD-based C2, and let Nautilus move to a short RWD CD6 so it can truly play with the big boys. I also thought this was an option, but then that splits production to two different plants. C2 plants may not have enough capacity for Edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 Perhaps this deserves its own topic but I think Lincoln can probably move Nautilus up market somewhat and reap higher transaction prices. Part of that move may require the model to switch to longitudinal powertrain to handle more power and join the 10 speed PHEV club. The current Ford Explorer is 198" long. If you assume Aviator is couple of inches longer as cars tend to grow when they are redesigned, you can see how Aviator could end up being about 200~202" long. That would mean it is roughly the same size as Q7, X7, and GLS. Model - Length Audi Q7 200" // Q8 195" BMW X7 203" // X5 194" Mercedes GLS 202" // GLE 194" Lincoln Aviator ?? // Nautilus 191" Q8/X5/GLE are all new for 2019 so they are one-generation ahead of Nautilus. So you can see that there is plenty of room for Lincoln to make it into a little bigger and more luxurious and power-oriented offering. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, akirby said: I also thought this was an option, but then that splits production to two different plants. C2 plants may not have enough capacity for Edge. That's a significant problem but not in the way you are framing it. I think there is enough capacity for C2, especially in Mexico. The issue is more of a political and CAW problem. Let say Nautilus moves to Chicago (because of CD6), that will leave Oakville quite exposed in terms of utilization and products. For sure, Ford is not going to build Edge there by itself. And if Edge moves to Mexico with Maverick (which is the only product right now at Cuautitlan), then it's lights off for Oakville. One of the reason Ford kept Flex and MKT in production as long as it did is because the CAW contract... Ford needed to keep the utilization up at Oakville so it might as well build zombie products. If Nautilus moves away, all bets are off on Ford continuing producing cars in Canada. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 C2 products = Maverick, Escape, MKC, Courier and the related Utility. I still think they'll bring back Focus Active once they convert to C2. And I think they'll need Escape overflow in one of the Mexico plants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 55 minutes ago, bzcat said: Perhaps this deserves its own topic but I think Lincoln can probably move Nautilus up market somewhat and reap higher transaction prices. Part of that move may require the model to switch to longitudinal powertrain to handle more power and join the 10 speed PHEV club. The current Ford Explorer is 198" long. If you assume Aviator is couple of inches longer as cars tend to grow when they are redesigned, you can see how Aviator could end up being about 200~202" long. That would mean it is roughly the same size as Q7, X7, and GLS. Model - Length Audi Q7 200" // Q8 195" BMW X7 203" // X5 194" Mercedes GLS 202" // GLE 194" Lincoln Aviator ?? // Nautilus 191" Q8/X5/GLE are all new for 2019 so they are one-generation ahead of Nautilus. So you can see that there is plenty of room for Lincoln to make it into a little bigger and more luxurious and power-oriented offering. The biggest issue with the D3 is that its interior space sucks and I'm assuming that the new products won't have this issue, even if they are the same size roughly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudz64 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 hour ago, rmc523 said: Better yet. Split Edge and Nautilus - put Edge on FWD-based C2, and let Nautilus move to a short RWD CD6 so it can truly play with the big boys. Yeah, that could be the true base powertrain (the 2.7T). I wasn't saying a 2.0 would be standard, just that the 3.0T is probably not the true base powertrain when everything is unveiled. It gave them wow headlines at the show, which was a smart play, and they can quietly slip in a lesser trim/powertrain at a later date. I think the 3.0 TT V6 will remain the entry engine. While it makes sense to think the 2.7 TT V6 would be added, I think they want to keep the assembly process down...from what we already know, the new Explorer and Aviator will offer 5 engines! If anything, they may add the 2.3 T as the base engine since its already offered on the Explorer, and the competition all get away with small base Turbo 4 cylinders already. Looking at the standard equipment and features for the Aviator, it sounds like its going to start at $60,000+ (matches up to a Reserve Continental even w/o the "SUV" surcharge!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 minute ago, spudz64 said: I think the 3.0 TT V6 will remain the entry engine. While it makes sense to think the 2.7 TT V6 would be added, I think they want to keep the assembly process down...from what we already know, the new Explorer and Aviator will offer 5 engines! If anything, they may add the 2.3 T as the base engine since its already offered on the Explorer, and the competition all get away with small base Turbo 4 cylinders already. Looking at the standard equipment and features for the Aviator, it sounds like its going to start at $60,000+ (matches up to a Reserve Continental even w/o the "SUV" surcharge!) Right, the base engine will likely be a shared Explorer powertrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 2 hours ago, 92merc said: I would say that C2 is "like" CD6 only in that it is a flexible platform. That's about it. On the Edge front, I'd rather see the Edge/Nautilus stay FWD/AWD biased. I think in that midsized CUV it makes more sense. But my guess is that the 2 row RWD biased vehicle is what the Bronco is going to slot into. With the Bronco name, I don't know if they need Linconln variant. If you ask me, a Lincoln variant of the Ranger and Bronco would be a mind numbingly stupid waste of resources. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 42 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Right, the base engine will likely be a shared Explorer powertrain. That would be the conventional thinking but it sounds like Lincoln is taking a different path with Aviator. It would not surprise me if the 3.0TT was the only engine. Explorer will certainly get a standard 2.3L and 3.3L Hybrid. The question is whether the Explorer ST gets the 2.7T, 3.0T or 3.5T. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 47 minutes ago, akirby said: That would be the conventional thinking but it sounds like Lincoln is taking a different path with Aviator. It would not surprise me if the 3.0TT was the only engine. Explorer will certainly get a standard 2.3L and 3.3L Hybrid. The question is whether the Explorer ST gets the 2.7T, 3.0T or 3.5T. I though it was leaked the ST was getting the 3.0T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jniffen Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 On 11/30/2018 at 10:24 PM, akirby said: An idiot with a crowbar or a tow truck can get access to your car today without any technology. Given that you have to authorize the phone it’s a lot more complicated than a little malware. Time will tell. These guys/gals aren't stupid there are always new discoveries to be exploited. Just not wild of; letting Amazon deliveries have acess to my home, trunk of my car, having ability to lock/unlock my front door via my phone, etc.. Any point of access not necessary but for convenience just isn't valid in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 The Avaiator could also gain the 2.3L hybrid powertrain that is going into the Corsair in a year or so. Would also allow it to be in a lower tax bracket in China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellanca Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 After having a few base model Continentals as loaners I think Lincoln would be best served to drop that trim and start with the Select(which sounds more base than the actual base model, Premiere—but that’s another topic), or keep it at the Reserve level as base for the Aviator and Navigator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assimilator Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 (edited) Personally I would like Lincoln to get rid of the ugly "Florida Man" configurations. Usually those are the versions you find parked in the blue spaces, typically the base small wheel versions with aggressively ugly gold/beige colors you can only find on Lincolns or Camrys. I know Lincoln wants to sell cars, but nothing deflates a brand image more than a conspicuously elderly configuration dominating their image on the roads. Edited December 4, 2018 by Assimilator 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 40 minutes ago, Assimilator said: Personally I would like Lincoln to get rid of the ugly "Florida Man" configurations. Usually those are the versions you find parked in the blue spaces, typically the base small wheel versions with aggressively ugly gold/beige colors you can only find on Lincolns or Camrys. I know Lincoln wants to sell cars, but nothing deflates a brand image more than a conspicuously elderly configuration dominating their image on the roads. Funny you mention that-in the retirement development my parents live in-they have at least a half dozen beige/gold color cars on their street. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 17 hours ago, bzcat said: Q8/X5/GLE are all new for 2019 so they are one-generation ahead of Nautilus. So you can see that there is plenty of room for Lincoln to make it into a little bigger and more luxurious and power-oriented offering. Especially since Lincoln has said the redesigned Corsair (formerly MKC), which will be hitting dealer lots this time next year, will be longer and wider with more rear seat legroom and an adjustable second row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudz64 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 13 hours ago, Bellanca said: After having a few base model Continentals as loaners I think Lincoln would be best served to drop that trim and start with the Select(which sounds more base than the actual base model, Premiere—but that’s another topic), or keep it at the Reserve level as base for the Aviator and Navigator. I agree, drop the base models and add more content! For 2019 all Lincolns start at "standard" replacing the Premier trim name, then Select, Reserve, ect. From what I read, the Aviator will come in Standard, Reserve, Black Label and Grand Touring, plus Black Label Grand Touring. So maybe this signifies new contenting for Lincoln going forward. The Corsair debut in NY in March should tell us more! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudz64 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 18 hours ago, bzcat said: That's a significant problem but not in the way you are framing it. I think there is enough capacity for C2, especially in Mexico. The issue is more of a political and CAW problem. Let say Nautilus moves to Chicago (because of CD6), that will leave Oakville quite exposed in terms of utilization and products. For sure, Ford is not going to build Edge there by itself. And if Edge moves to Mexico with Maverick (which is the only product right now at Cuautitlan), then it's lights off for Oakville. One of the reason Ford kept Flex and MKT in production as long as it did is because the CAW contract... Ford needed to keep the utilization up at Oakville so it might as well build zombie products. If Nautilus moves away, all bets are off on Ford continuing producing cars in Canada. Well, if Nautilus moves from Oakville, maybe the next Edge will gain a domestic 3 row variant, which could also be exported to Europe to replace the S-MAX and Galaxie...? Build them all at Oakville, and export as needed. I think a US 3 row Edge makes sense since the Explorer is going a bit upmarket and the Flex is going away too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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