Lincoln's New President has some Interesting Thoughts on the Way Forward

[Gurgeh]

44 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I don't think it's so much not being sold on EVs as it is realizing the market may not shift as quickly as has been projected, and safeguarding against THAT possibility.  They still have EVs coming, so they're not ignoring that.  But they're also not abandoning their existing current heart of their lineup, which I think is a smart move.

 

 

Insipid and underwhelming?  Exaggerate much?  Just because its not your beloved EV?

 

Initial reviews I've seen have been positive for Nautilus.

 

 

 

They can't continually abandon every segment just because things get hard, IMO.

As long as they will be bringing in the promised BEVs, it makes sense to stick with ICE based products as well and let the market decide. As mentioned elsewhere here, I'm heading into my Lincoln dealership on Friday to finalize as order for the 2024 Nautilus and to plop down my deposit. Lincoln has made mistakes over the years, and continues to in my view (don't think 4 products that almost became 3 is enough to sustain a modern luxury make), but honestly since the Continental they have been killing it with their interiors, and the design of the all-new 2024 Nautilus inside and out is just stunning. Though granted, style is very much an eye of the beholder thing.  BlueCruise is probably the best system of its type in the world and I like the design where you see the drivers information above a lower-positioned and smaller steering wheel. That is exactly my preferred driving set-up. Also, being able to have the navigation map out along with audio information and one or two other things is great. My wife is always switching around satellite channels when I'm trying to follow the map and it drives me crazy. I'm hoping that the new Google-based infotainment system is a big step forward as well. I have never before done a factory order on a vehicle I hadn't been able to test drive yet, but that's what I'm doing with this one. Sure, it's always a risk buying a first-year model with systems never before seen in the wild, but I'm choosing to hope for the best.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Gurgeh

[GearheadGrrrl]

So I'm Lincoln's key demographic, 70ish woman with six figure net worth... Why haven't I felt even the slightest bit motivated to enter the Lincoln corner of a Ford store?

[Gurgeh]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

So I'm Lincoln's key demographic, 70ish woman with six figure net worth... Why haven't I felt even the slightest bit motivated to enter the Lincoln corner of a Ford store?

Because their products aren't what you are looking for, so it makes sense for you to look elsewhere. Some folks really want a car, but Lincoln doesn't make those anymore (and Ford barely does). Some folks want driving excitement in their high center-of-gravity crossovers, so best for them to go to BMW who really does try to tweak the laws of physics to deliver that, and does a reasonable job at it -- Lincoln products are oriented around driving comfort. Some folks want their their neighbors to be envious of their purchase, so they should go for Mercedes or Range Rover (in the latter case paying in part for the vehicle's serious off-road capabilities, as if more than .01% of Range Rover owners ever take their $100,000+ vehicles into the mud). And some folks just don't like the look of Lincoln's current external or internal designs -- there's nothing more subjective in a vehicle than what folks thinks looks good -- so they should go with a vehicle that looks more like what they want that vehicle to look like, whatever that is. Maybe a Genesis (I actually love the look of the GV80's front end, but many hate it) or Range Rover (love the clean exterior design which some find bland and their interiors are just as good as MB or Lincoln, in my view). Many don't want so many interior screens or want more physical buttons (I can agree on the latter, but good luck on finding that these days in any of the new models coming out). Some want BEVs, and sadly Lincoln doesn't have those yet -- really too bad about the Rivian-derived product -- but they are working on that. Some just want more variety, and I agree, 4 vehicles isn't much to choose from.

 

...and to be delicate, I assume you meant six figures income, not six figures net worth. If you are retired and all you have in savings and investments to live out the rest of your life is a few hundred thousand dollars to provide a modest annual income, you'd better be pinching those pennies at every opportunity.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Gurgeh

[akirby]

3 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

So I'm Lincoln's key demographic, 70ish woman with six figure net worth... Why haven't I felt even the slightest bit motivated to enter the Lincoln corner of a Ford store?

You do the same thing that VW, Audi, Acura, Porsche, MB and BMW fans do when they want a pickup - go buy another brand and stop whining.  
 

If you only want cars you’re not in Lincoln’s demographic.

[GearheadGrrrl]

So first we chase away the customers who want a hot rod Lincoln, a Lincoln sedan, an electric Lincoln, etc.. Having thus killed off any hope of Lincolns ever selling in decent volumes, we now demand that the dealers build new multi-million dollar showrooms just for the limited range of Lincolns that will never sell in enough volume to pay for those showrooms. Sounds like a brilliant plan to clear out the dealer network to make way for direct sales a la TSLA, or is this just the latest stupid plan to save Lincoln?

[silvrsvt]

13 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

So first we chase away the customers who want a hot rod Lincoln, a Lincoln sedan, an electric Lincoln, etc.. Having thus killed off any hope of Lincolns ever selling in decent volumes, we now demand that the dealers build new multi-million dollar showrooms just for the limited range of Lincolns that will never sell in enough volume to pay for those showrooms. Sounds like a brilliant plan to clear out the dealer network to make way for direct sales a la TSLA, or is this just the latest stupid plan to save Lincoln?

Lincoln has been “dying” for the past 20 plus years, but yet it’s still around. 
 

The issue is with “expectations”, often unrealistic with the brand, with pundits and car fans with no clue as to how the auto industry is run. 
 

Luxury items are nothing more then everyday items that have some sort of extra “worth” real or not. Just look at the recent Tesla headlines going around with them saying they are competing with the likes of Ford instead of Mercedes or Audi. 
 

If Lincoln is nothing more then a Ford with a new top hat and a better dealer experience, I’m perfectly fine with that, as long as they make money for Ford. I don’t give two shits about snob appeal. 
 

 

[GearheadGrrrl]

38 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

If Lincoln is nothing more then a Ford with a new top hat and a better dealer experience, I’m perfectly fine with that, as long as they make money for Ford. I don’t give two shits about snob appeal. 

 

Ya know, that's the way I feel about the F150- I'd never buy one, but as long as it makes money for us shareholders I'm fine with it. And while the F150 is in a massive domestic niche market for massive pickups that don't do anything very well, that's typical of big pickups, Ford's the best of the bunch, and the F150 is the best seller in a market of around 3 million a year.

 

The business case for Lincoln is much weaker- The enterprise sells barely 100k units in a good year spread over 4 shared platforms with unique "top hats"... With the cost of all that Lincoln unique sheet metal, is Lincoln ever turning a profit?

 

 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

The business case for Lincoln is much weaker- The enterprise sells barely 100k units in a good year spread over 4 shared platforms with unique "top hats"... With the cost of all that Lincoln unique sheet metal, is Lincoln ever turning a profit?

 

Its not as expensive as you think-the major changes are below the beltline and the front and rear ends are "soft" changes-the front ends are plastic. which don't require an expensive stamping and some products even share the same greenhouse with some clever camouflaged to make them look different. Not to mention the average starting price vs their Ford equivalent is anywhere from 10-15K more. Interior changes are just injection molding and material choices...outside of seats, which I think might be built by a 3rd party. 

[GearheadGrrrl]

48 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Its not as expensive as you think-the major changes are below the beltline and the front and rear ends are "soft" changes-the front ends are plastic. which don't require an expensive stamping and some products even share the same greenhouse with some clever camouflaged to make them look different. Not to mention the average starting price vs their Ford equivalent is anywhere from 10-15K more. Interior changes are just injection molding and material choices...outside of seats, which I think might be built by a 3rd party. 

 

So if "top hats" are so cheap, why can't Lincoln have a Grand Touring car based on the Mustang that rivals Europe's best at a price starting at under $100K? Plug in Hybrid and diesel power for the best BOF big SUV, the Navigator? Hot hatch variants on the transverse engined SUVs with Ford's highest output Ecoboost engines with lowered suspensions and the best bits in ford's parts bins? And Police Interceptor suspension for the Aviator?

[akirby]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

 

massive pickups that don't do anything very well, that's typical of big pickups, 

That might be the stupidest statement you’ve made here and that’s saying something.  Name another type of vehicle that gets 24 mpg, can haul 2000 lbs of stone, tow a 10k lb boat and seat 6 adults quite comfortably.

[akirby]

30 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

 

So if "top hats" are so cheap, why can't Lincoln have a Grand Touring car based on the Mustang that rivals Europe's best at a price starting at under $100K? Plug in Hybrid and diesel power for the best BOF big SUV, the Navigator? Hot hatch variants on the transverse engined SUVs with Ford's highest output Ecoboost engines with lowered suspensions and the best bits in ford's parts bins? And Police Interceptor suspension for the Aviator?

Because they have other products that make more sense for them.  You seem to know nothing about the vehicle market or business cases - only what you like and don’t like.  
 

And now you’re entering troll territory - ignoring facts and repeating the same arguments.

[GearheadGrrrl]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

That might be the stupidest statement you’ve made here and that’s saying something.  Name another type of vehicle that gets 24 mpg, can haul 2000 lbs of stone, tow a 10k lb boat and seat 6 adults quite comfortably.

For most of the world'd drivers only the 24 MPG is needed, and not sure if an F150 can do that as some of the high MPG powertrains are limited to lower GVW ratings...

[GearheadGrrrl]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Because they have other products that make more sense for them.  You seem to know nothing about the vehicle market or business cases - only what you like and don’t like.  
 

And now you’re entering troll territory - ignoring facts and repeating the same arguments.

Sounds like you're taking the Ford fan view, I'm taking the world wide investor's view. 

 

F series is Ford's "cash cow", and in the NA market that loves pickups it does well and is profitable due to it's large volumes and high margins. That said, big pickups are getting too expensive and may be the victims of their own success, especially since their market isn't growing. There are also huge markets in the other 95% of the world's consumers who have little interest in pickups and largely favor a 2 box car with a hatch in the back, whether at normal height or jacked up a few inches and marketed as an SUV. Then there is the emerging market for electrics, which may or may not dominate the total market in a decade or so...

 

Ford is largely staking their future on the F Series and I wish them good luck. Ford is withdrawing from the transverse engine 2 box market where they need to be as a hedge if the F series fails and/or electrification stalls. Ford has a good start in electrification, but if they let go of VW's platform will they be able to compete with just the Mach-E and F150 Lightning platforms? Then there are a bunch of niche markets that Ford could enter with an effort ranging from a line extension to whole new products- For example, the heavy truck makers are reporting very strong profits.

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Ford is largely staking their future on the F Series and I wish them good luck.

 

It's a logical bet, especially with the launch of F-150 Lightning. Ford marketers have been fabulously successful over the past 20 years turning F-Series especially F-150 into a major status symbol for upper class consumers in large U.S. metropolitan areas (maybe Canada and Mexico too). That success had the unfortunate side effect of making Lincoln less relevant to consumers seeking high-end products from Ford Motor Company.

 

MaritzCX/InMoment research a few years ago found that households with an annual income of $500,000 or more are far more likely to buy a Ford F-Series than any Lincoln. In fact F-150 was the #1 choice among all car and light truck models for this elite group.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Sounds like you're taking the Ford fan view, I'm taking the world wide investor's view. 

 

F series is Ford's "cash cow", and in the NA market that loves pickups it does well and is profitable due to it's large volumes and high margins. That said, big pickups are getting too expensive and may be the victims of their own success, especially since their market isn't growing. There are also huge markets in the other 95% of the world's consumers who have little interest in pickups and largely favor a 2 box car with a hatch in the back, whether at normal height or jacked up a few inches and marketed as an SUV. Then there is the emerging market for electrics, which may or may not dominate the total market in a decade or so...

 

Ford is largely staking their future on the F Series and I wish them good luck. Ford is withdrawing from the transverse engine 2 box market where they need to be as a hedge if the F series fails and/or electrification stalls. Ford has a good start in electrification, but if they let go of VW's platform will they be able to compete with just the Mach-E and F150 Lightning platforms? Then there are a bunch of niche markets that Ford could enter with an effort ranging from a line extension to whole new products- For example, the heavy truck makers are reporting very strong profits.

Ford still makes cars in Europe and China.  They’re not betting on F150 they’re betting on F150, Super Duty, Transit, F150 Lightning, E transit, mustang, Maverick, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Ranger, Explorer, Expedition, Navigator, Aviator, Corsair, Nautilus, Mach-E and upcoming BEV aviator, Explorer and T3.   
 

Ford is/was #1 in sales and making $10B+/yr.  There is zero reason from a financial standpoint to bring back cars.

[rperez817]

9 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

With the cost of all that Lincoln unique sheet metal, is Lincoln ever turning a profit?

 

Only Ford Motor Company executives know for certain, but most likely the answer is no. As recently as 2018, analysts at Morgan Stanley and AlixPartners estimated that Lincoln was one component of Ford Motor Company deemed "unprofitable".

[DeluxeStang]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

Because they have other products that make more sense for them.  You seem to know nothing about the vehicle market or business cases - only what you like and don’t like.  
 

And now you’re entering troll territory - ignoring facts and repeating the same arguments.

On the topic of business cases, something I've often wondered is while crossovers are clearly one of the most profitable segments, and as such, one of the most appealing, at one point does it become a liability to introduce additional crossover models. 

 

It seems logical to assume Lincoln will continue to expand it's lineup, as will Ford, to hopefully increase the presence of their brands in places like China. While having multiple products similar in size is generally a good idea, you do risk models cannibalizing the sales of one another. 

 

For example, Ford can get away with making multiple midsized two row crossovers, because the edge, mach-e, and bronco are all wildly different vehicles appealing to radically different buyers. But I can see this being an issue with Lincoln, they're backing themselves into a corner. Everything is being given the same design features, is having the same relaxed, non sporty driving dynamics engineered to them, and will be a crossover.

 

I just see that being an issue as they add more products to their lineup moving forward. Aside from size and pricing, everything is going to basically look the same, drive the same, feel the same. That's not a good thing if you're trying to appeal to new audiences and increase sales volume. You'd usually want to take the opposite approach, trying something radically different to entice new buyers into your showrooms. 

 

Who knows, maybe Lincoln is cooking up a fast, radical looking crossover coupe or something as one of their flagship EVs. If that's the case, I'll be impressed. But it seems like the brand is just taking the competent, but generic approach, and then wondering why it's not selling well. It's because there's hardly a reason to give Lincoln a second look. They're well executed, but there isn't a ton that really sets them apart in the premium market. 

 

You look at them and go, that's a nice looking SUV with solid tech and interior materials. But the same can be said about the 15 other luxury brands Lincoln is completing against. They need to do more to really blow people's minds. The last 5-7 years have really been a step in the right direction, but they have a long way to go. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by DeluxeStang

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I just see that being an issue as they add more products to their lineup moving forward. Aside from size and pricing, everything is going to basically look the same, drive the same, feel the same. That's not a good thing if you're trying to appeal to new audiences and increase sales volume. You'd usually want to take the opposite approach, trying something radically different to entice new buyers into your showrooms. 

 

Who knows, maybe Lincoln is cooking up a fast, radical looking crossover coupe or something as one of their flagship EVs. If that's the case, I'll be impressed. But it seems like the brand is just taking the competent, but generic approach, and then wondering why it's not selling well. It's because there's hardly a reason to give Lincoln a second look. They're well executed, but there isn't a ton that really sets them apart in the premium market. 

 

You look at them and go, that's a nice looking SUV with solid tech and interior materials. But the same can be said about the 15 other luxury brands Lincoln is completing against. They need to do more to really blow people's minds. The last 5-7 years have really been a step in the right direction, but they have a long way to go. 

 

That is the thing-Lincoln does things its own way-just look at Cadillac for example-they where trying to be the BMW fighter of GM for years and never made any headway with increased sales. The CT sedans are duds and outside of the Escalade their other products aren't anything worth writing home about. 

 

There seems like there is a lot of people who want Lincoln to do something different, but doing something different doesn't always mean sales are going to be better.

[akirby]

It’s a very different environment if you’re a standalone luxury mfr like bmw or Mercedes vs a luxury division of a mass market brand like Caddy, Lincoln, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Genesis, etc.  For the latter you usually share platforms and manufacturing with the mass market brands and most of your customers come from the mass market customer base.  You have less overhead and can easily get by with lower volume.  
 

As for performance I think price and features and styling are more desirable for the vast majority of luxury crossovers and utilities buyers than performance.  Of course bmw and amg have high performance versions but that’s their traditional business model.  
 

And you also have to factor in EVs.  Making high performance EVs is totally different than ICE.  I suspect you’ll see high performance versions of Explorer and Aviator EVs.

[ice-capades]

38 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That is the thing-Lincoln does things its own way-just look at Cadillac for example-they where trying to be the BMW fighter of GM for years and never made any headway with increased sales. The CT sedans are duds and outside of the Escalade their other products aren't anything worth writing home about. 

 

There seems like there is a lot of people who want Lincoln to do something different, but doing something different doesn't always mean sales are going to be better.

 

The Lincoln division has been poorly managed for decades with non-distinctive design themes that fail to attract enough new customers to increase volume to any degree, even though the buyer demographics have improved. It would be hard to justify the continued investment in Lincoln without the sales in China or the continued support from the Ford family that demands a Lincoln presence in the market. 

[silvrsvt]

32 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

The Lincoln division has been poorly managed for decades with non-distinctive design themes that fail to attract enough new customers to increase volume to any degree, even though the buyer demographics have improved. It would be hard to justify the continued investment in Lincoln without the sales in China or the continued support from the Ford family that demands a Lincoln presence in the market. 

 

I'm not sure its that-the Luxury market is fickle. I live in a county that is in the 1.2% of the most affluent in the USA. I see lots of "poser" Luxury cars-ie entry level Audis, Lexus, etc that are lease specials. People are buying them for fake status or to keep up with the Joneses deal. 

 

Even looking at the Japanese players in the market-which are sort of like Lincoln-they use a platform from their mainstream lineup with different styling, aren't selling in huge numbers either. MB and BMW sell stripper specials in Germany and Euro-BMW 7 series with steel wheels etc for taxi cabs.  

 

Ultimately it boils down to this-there are enough buyers who won't spend money on a high end Ford Titanium or Vingale trim like there is in the EU..they want the separation of a different nameplate and dealership experience. I think the Ford family would have been keen to kill Lincoln off it was that big of a drag on the bottom line since it would affect their income due to stock price. Unless of course someone fed them some chocolate covered shit 

[spudz64]

Well the good thing is Lincoln’s average transaction prices have gone up dramatically, 14% from a year ago, and are #7 of the top ten! 

 

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/04/average-new-car-transaction-prices-drop-below-msrp-for-the-first-time-in-nearly-2-years/

[.I.]

20 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

 

So if "top hats" are so cheap, why can't Lincoln have a Grand Touring car based on the Mustang that rivals Europe's best at a price starting at under $100K? Plug in Hybrid and diesel power for the best BOF big SUV, the Navigator? Hot hatch variants on the transverse engined SUVs with Ford's highest output Ecoboost engines with lowered suspensions and the best bits in ford's parts bins? And Police Interceptor suspension for the Aviator?

Coupes are selling so bad, that GM is killing the Camaro. 
Diesel power for the Navigator? ???. Even VW, the king of diesel (???) is abandoning this fuel as soon as possible 

SUVs with lowered suspensions?  Really?  The people want a SUV because is a tall vehicle, with high ride position. 
Police Interceptor suspension for the Aviator ?  Pursuit Lincoln?  ?

 

 

Clearly, you are not in the car industry and, evidently, you don’t know anything about it. 

[ice-capades]

34 minutes ago, .I. said:

Coupes are selling so bad, that GM is killing the Camaro. 
Diesel power for the Navigator? ???. Even VW, the king of diesel (???) is abandoning this fuel as soon as possible 

SUVs with lowered suspensions?  Really?  The people want a SUV because is a tall vehicle, with high ride position. 
Police Interceptor suspension for the Aviator ?  Pursuit Lincoln?  ?

 

 

Clearly, you are not in the car industry and, evidently, you don’t know anything about it. 

 

The Camaro cancellation is a whole different situation and not part of the industry-wide cancellation of car models, in particular sedans.  

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That is the thing-Lincoln does things its own way-just look at Cadillac for example-they where trying to be the BMW fighter of GM for years and never made any headway with increased sales. The CT sedans are duds and outside of the Escalade their other products aren't anything worth writing home about. 

 

There seems like there is a lot of people who want Lincoln to do something different, but doing something different doesn't always mean sales are going to be better.

I would tend to agree, hence why I said they started going in the right direction about 5-7 years ago. Their approach to exterior and interior design is one of the best in the luxury market. In a world when most luxury brands are slapping on massive grills, and giving their cars 1,000 different overstyled design elements, seeing a brand that's more restrained is quite nice. But I just feel like they're taking the Russian doll approach to design, same problem Mercedes has. Same basic look, just different sizes. 

 

Perhaps the solution is to keep their current lineup, while also developing some designs that use successful design elements and lines, but feature more radical proportions to appeal to consumers who want cars that look more futuristic. Something that gets people excited, and adds something fresh to the lineup without detracting from the rest of their lineup.