Lincoln's New President has some Interesting Thoughts on the Way Forward

[akirby]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I would tend to agree, hence why I said they started going in the right direction about 5-7 years ago. Their approach to exterior and interior design is one of the best in the luxury market. In a world when most luxury brands are slapping on massive grills, and giving their cars 1,000 different overstyled design elements, seeing a brand that's more restrained is quite nice. But I just feel like they're taking the Russian doll approach to design, same problem Mercedes has. Same basic look, just different sizes. 

 

Perhaps the solution is to keep their current lineup, while also developing some designs that use successful design elements and lines, but feature more radical proportions to appeal to consumers who want cars that look more futuristic. Something that gets people excited, and adds something fresh to the lineup without detracting from the rest of their lineup. 

But look at Audi and BMW.  All their products look identical just different sizes except for the “sport” or “sportback” utilities with the sloped rear roof.  Personally I find those hideous and from a practicality standpoint they only take away rear seat and cargo room.  Is that the differentiation you’re talking about?   I think a sporty coupe/convertible and the Zephyr sedan would be better but what other programs do you cancel to develop those?

[DeluxeStang]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

But look at Audi and BMW.  All their products look identical just different sizes except for the “sport” or “sportback” utilities with the sloped rear roof.  Personally I find those hideous and from a practicality standpoint they only take away rear seat and cargo room.  Is that the differentiation you’re talking about?   I think a sporty coupe/convertible and the Zephyr sedan would be better but what other programs do you cancel to develop those?

Here's the think, the Zephyr is already developed, and it uses the c2, so a lot of the components are probably shared with c2 products already sold here. I don't understand why they can't make a few changes to meet U.S. safety and emissions standards, and produce it in flat rock. The hard/expensive part of developing a car from scratch is already done. It's a premium product as well, so profit margins wouldn't be terrible in theory. 

 

In terms of differentiating products, I was thinking something along the lines of applying Lincoln design language to EVs where they could push the wheels to the corners, feature longer dash to axle ratios etc. The hallmarks of making great looking and distinct designs. 

 

A lot of current Lincoln's have those FWD proportions to them, which is practical, but not as visually appealing to many people as designs with long hoods and elegant lines. If you can't justify giving me a new coupe, at least give me an SUV that makes a bold statement with a unique design approach. 

[DeluxeStang]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

But look at Audi and BMW.  All their products look identical just different sizes except for the “sport” or “sportback” utilities with the sloped rear roof.  Personally I find those hideous and from a practicality standpoint they only take away rear seat and cargo room.  Is that the differentiation you’re talking about?   I think a sporty coupe/convertible and the Zephyr sedan would be better but what other programs do you cancel to develop those?

Case in point, here's a side by side comparison of several Lincoln crossovers, compared to Aston Martin's crossover, which is the best looking SUV ever imo. All three look good, but the Aston looks more enticing, and sport as a result of those proportions, minimal overhangs, longer hood, etc. The proportions of ICE lincolns are restricted by the Ford products they're based on. But future EVs should have more flexibility in the proportions they enable. 

[akirby]

I agree on the AM design, but what are the sales numbers between that and the other more unique designs vs the more traditional designs like Nautilus?

[paintguy]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I agree on the AM design, but what are the sales numbers between that and the other more unique designs vs the more traditional designs like Nautilus?

The Aston Martin SUVs start at $185,000. Lincoln would prefer to have volumes similar to Lexus RX, BMW X5 or Acura MDX. None of those trade at nosebleed price of Aston Martin or Porsche. Lexus has a bland luxury flavor, closest to the Lincoln DNA. BMW and Acura go for more a performance vibe, as do Aston and Porssche. 

[The Handler]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Case in point, here's a side by side comparison of several Lincoln crossovers, compared to Aston Martin's crossover, which is the best looking SUV ever imo. All three look good, but the Aston looks more enticing, and sport as a result of those proportions, minimal overhangs, longer hood, etc. The proportions of ICE lincolns are restricted by the Ford products they're based on. But future EVs should have more flexibility in the proportions they enable. 

Wasn't the Nautilus supposed to go on CD6? 

[Ares]

4 hours ago, The Handler said:

Wasn't the Nautilus supposed to go on CD6? 

I don't have the answer, but man I wish it did. I don't see why it couldn't have and been built alongside Aviator and Explorer. Someone more knowledgeable than me might know why though
A sportier RWD version of the new Nautilus would be right up my alley. 

[Gurgeh]

3 hours ago, BigBendMatt said:

I don't have the answer, but man I wish it did. I don't see why it couldn't have and been built alongside Aviator and Explorer. Someone more knowledgeable than me might know why though
A sportier RWD version of the new Nautilus would be right up my alley. 

Not crazy about the new 2024 Nautilus being built (at least for now) in China and imported to North America (even though I'm going in tomorrow to put down a deposit on one), but I'll take that over buying one built in the Chicago plant. It's risky enough buying a first year model -- I can do without the risk of the Chicago facility botching up the build, as they so often do.

[akirby]

Yes Nautilus and Edge were originally targeted for cd6 along with sedans.  I think they ended up being too expensive and were moved to C2 then BEVs came along.

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Not crazy about the new 2024 Nautilus being built (at least for now) in China and imported to North America (even though I'm going in tomorrow to put down a deposit on one), but I'll take that over buying one built in the Chicago plant. It's risky enough buying a first year model -- I can do without the risk of the Chicago facility botching up the build, as they so often do.

 

Good points Gurgeh. Fortunately, Lincoln has much higher standards in China than in the U.S. or Canada. As such, your new Nautilus should be fine from a quality standpoint. Way better than any vehicle from Chicago Assembly Plant for sure.

[The Handler]

18 hours ago, BigBendMatt said:

I don't have the answer, but man I wish it did. I don't see why it couldn't have and been built alongside Aviator and Explorer. Someone more knowledgeable than me might know why though
A sportier RWD version of the new Nautilus would be right up my alley. 

That looks really good. 

[Willwll313wll]

19 hours ago, BigBendMatt said:

I don't have the answer, but man I wish it did. I don't see why it couldn't have and been built alongside Aviator and Explorer. Someone more knowledgeable than me might know why though
A sportier RWD version of the new Nautilus would be right up my alley. 

Phew!

 3.0T Hybrid? Sign me up!

[MKX1960]

On 4/24/2023 at 11:07 AM, rmc523 said:

 

I don't think it's so much not being sold on EVs as it is realizing the market may not shift as quickly as has been projected, and safeguarding against THAT possibility.  They still have EVs coming, so they're not ignoring that.  But they're also not abandoning their existing current heart of their lineup, which I think is a smart move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's pretty much what I was getting at. With a lot more EV's on the roads, the good and bad things are starting to show up. I feel they may tap the brakes a bit and plans will get pushed out a few years.

[MKX1960]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:13 PM, GearheadGrrrl said:

So I'm Lincoln's key demographic, 70ish woman with six figure net worth... Why haven't I felt even the slightest bit motivated to enter the Lincoln corner of a Ford store?

Lincoln has been trying to get that number down for some time. With the Nautilus, they hope to attract millennials which leaves both of us out of the picture.

[MKX1960]

On 4/27/2023 at 3:46 AM, Gurgeh said:

Not crazy about the new 2024 Nautilus being built (at least for now) in China and imported to North America (even though I'm going in tomorrow to put down a deposit on one), but I'll take that over buying one built in the Chicago plant. It's risky enough buying a first year model -- I can do without the risk of the Chicago facility botching up the build, as they so often do.

I thought there was no deposit required? I know you'll need to pay eventually, but tying up money for a year when you don't have to would be my choice.

[MKX1960]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:11 PM, Willwll313wll said:

Phew!

 3.0T Hybrid? Sign me up!

I'm most surprised the standard engine is the same as on their entry level model. That fact and being built in China I think will be the 2 biggest obstacles Lincoln faces. With the Corsair  at 250HP and Aviator at 400HP, even the hybrid at 310 is on the low side.

Edited April 29, 2023 by MKX1960
spelling

[akirby]

52 minutes ago, MKX1960 said:

I'm most surprised the standard engine is the same as on their entry level model. That fact and being built in China I think will be the 2 biggest obstacles Lincoln faces. With the Corsair  at 250HP and Aviator at 400HP, even the hybrid at 310 is on the low side.

Pretty sure the majority of current Nautilus sales are the 2.0L.  That’s what we have and it’s perfectly fine.  Not underpowered at all.  They’ll lose some v6 or nothing sales but they’ll gain a lot of hybrid sales.

[DeluxeStang]

On 4/27/2023 at 4:46 AM, Gurgeh said:

Not crazy about the new 2024 Nautilus being built (at least for now) in China and imported to North America (even though I'm going in tomorrow to put down a deposit on one), but I'll take that over buying one built in the Chicago plant. It's risky enough buying a first year model -- I can do without the risk of the Chicago facility botching up the build, as they so often do.

What happened to the Chicago plant to make things go downhill so quickly? Our 2017 explorer, the 2011-19 explorers in general, are quite reliable overall. Then they shifted to this new explorer generation, and are still struggling to make them high quality and reliable after several model years. 

[DeluxeStang]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:12 PM, The Handler said:

That looks really good. 

Prob my new favorite Lincoln design in recent memory. 

[Gurgeh]

10 hours ago, MKX1960 said:

I thought there was no deposit required? I know you'll need to pay eventually, but tying up money for a year when you don't have to would be my choice.

It wasn't a big deposit. Just a few hundred dollars. Most dealers do this in part to ensure that the person doing the order is serious, but it is totally refundable if you change your mind (according to state law). We even agreed on a price below MSRP, though not a lot below below MSRP.

 

I do still have an issue, however, that might ultimately lead me to backing out of the deal. I really, really don't want the 22" wheels. They said Lincoln doesn't permit them to deliver a vehicle that is different in any way than the configuration on the sticker. But that isn't what I'm actually trying to do. I'm asking them to find another customer getting delivery about the same time with the smaller tires that would be interested in a free "upgrade." And then after delivery, switch, in an aftermarket agreement between two owners. I talked to the owner about this (he is the person who actually did the special order for me) and after talking to the folks in parts he said the he wasn't certain that it would be physically possible, that the bolt pattern that comes with the Reserve/BL might be different than what comes with base Premier (the former coming only with 21" or 22", the later only with 19" or 20" wheels). But this doesn't really make sense to me. For instance, I know people in the snow belt often get smaller wheels/higher profile snow tires that they put on their vehicles in the winter months. So it must be possible. Really annoyed by automakers trying to force people like me into low profile tires. Need to do a little more research on this. 

 

EDIT: One more thing. The owner continued to be very frustrated with supply. It is almost impossible for them to keep vehicles on the lot for folks who come by and just want to get into a car. He knows that FMC is trying to push their customers all -- or as nearly all as possible -- into special ordering, but while that works well for people like me who can wait it's not what everyone wants to do with shopping for a new car. He put in a special order for a neighbor of his last October for a Corsair (she currently has an Audi), but it is still not built. ...though Lincoln promises it will be, Real Soon Now.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Gurgeh

[rperez817]

9 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

What happened to the Chicago plant to make things go downhill so quickly?

 

At least 1 member of this site who also worked at Chicago Assembly suggested that there's a leadership crisis at that facility.

[tbone]

11 hours ago, MKX1960 said:

I thought there was no deposit required? I know you'll need to pay eventually, but tying up money for a year when you don't have to would be my choice.

I’ve never had to put a deposit on any vehicle I have ordered and the vast majority my purchases have been dealer orders.  
 

I guess the one exception would be the $100 deposit on the Bronco I ordered before they were available.  

[tbone]

2 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

I'm asking them to find another customer getting delivery about the same time with the smaller tires that would be interested in a free "upgrade." And then after delivery, switch, in an aftermarket agreement between two owners. I talked to the owner about this (he is the person who actually did the special order for me) and after talking to the folks in parts he said the he wasn't certain that it would be physically possible, that the bolt pattern that comes with the Reserve/BL might be different than what comes with base Premier (the former coming only with 21" or 22", the later only with 19" or 20" wheels). 

I don’t see any reason why they couldn’t do this for you after signing the papers. Perhaps someone with more dealer knowledge can chime in, but once the papers are signed the deal is done so why would it matter.  
 

I have also never seen a vehicle with a different hub/bolt pattern for different wheel sizes.  That sounds suspect to me.  

[MKX1960]

18 hours ago, tbone said:

I don’t see any reason why they couldn’t do this for you after signing the papers. Perhaps someone with more dealer knowledge can chime in, but once the papers are signed the deal is done so why would it matter.  
 

I have also never seen a vehicle with a different hub/bolt pattern for different wheel sizes.  That sounds suspect to me.  

I always thought dealers liked to sell wheels? This dealer may be mis informed.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Problem is that Federal law requires that the original tires be registered to the car so the owner can be notified if a recall is needed, so dealer can't swap out new tires/wheels.