Oac98 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 On 10/27/2023 at 10:00 AM, akirby said: I believe most of us (except one) said that GMs all EV plans with no hybrids was pretty risky and Ford was in a better position by releasing Mach-e and lightning early and keeping HEVs and PHEVs. Production issues and rising costs prevented Mach-E and Lightning from being runaway hits but I think Ford gained valuable experience. I don’t think they can pivot Oakville back to edge/nautilus very easily due to suppliers. Keeping the current vehicles wouldn’t be smart even if the suppliers could continue. They still need BOC and T3 for sure. It’s probably too late to change Aviator/Explorer at Oakville. I would look to put all other EVs in Mexico and do the following: Add a hybrid option to Bronco Sport, Ranger and Bronco. Replace Escape with a Maverick based SUV - larger and cheaper than Bronco Sport without the off-road chops. Add C2 Edge (new not the Chinese version) and Nautilus to Louisville along with Corsair with HEV options for all. That makes 6 C2 vehicles split between the 2 plants with the same powertrains (1.5, 2.0, 2.3 plus HEVs and PHEVs). 12 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/HourlyHighlighter-Ford_FINAL.pdf Heres the entire contract: https://actionnetwork.org/user_files/user_files/000/098/799/original/Ford-Changed-Pages-2023.pdf As expected UAW contract better than Unifor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Very interesting, so as we suspected, flat rock is getting something new besides the s650, I wonder what that would be. One would think it would have to be something car based. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 14 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: Very interesting, so as we suspected, flat rock is getting something new besides the s650, I wonder what that would be. One would think it would have to be something car based. Unless they rebuild the paint shop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pffan1990 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 13 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: Very interesting, so as we suspected, flat rock is getting something new besides the s650, I wonder what that would be. One would think it would have to be something car based. I saw that too which got my attention. Of course, it's 'pending program approval', though it could be if some rebuilds are made, as akirby mentioned above. Louisville gets the rumored new EV product. Interesting that Dearborn/REVC has the F-150 Lightning continue through its product cycle, but has all-new EV truck coming there too. Expedition and Navigator gets confirmed Hybrid models as well at Kentucky Truck Plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExplorerDude Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Flat Rock’s investment is only $50 million, I can’t imagine that being anything major. Definitely not a new Paint Shop. I don’t even know what product it would be. It might just be a derivative of the S650. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pffan1990 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, ExplorerDude said: Flat Rock’s investment is only $50 million, I can’t imagine that being anything major. Definitely not a new Paint Shop. I don’t even know what product it would be. It might just be a derivative of the S650. It could be the Mustang Raptor if it gets approved? This was briefly discussed here in the forum sometime ago. Edited to add: or more realistically, perhaps the Mustang Hybrid program may be getting resurrected. With Farley's plans to have more hybrids, as seen with upcoming plans for Expedition/Navigator Hybrids at KTP, perhaps there is a pending plan to have Mustang Hybrid built. The $50M investment could perhaps help start building Mustang Hybrid. Edited October 29, 2023 by pffan1990 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 18 minutes ago, akirby said: Unless they rebuild the paint shop. Yep, if I had to guess, we'll find out more in the coming months. 17 minutes ago, pffan1990 said: I saw that too which got my attention. Of course, it's 'pending program approval', though it could be if some rebuilds are made, as akirby mentioned above. Louisville gets the rumored new EV product. Interesting that Dearborn/REVC has the F-150 Lightning continue through its product cycle, but has all-new EV truck coming there too. Expedition and Navigator gets confirmed Hybrid models as well at Kentucky Truck Plant. This is interesting as well. It's been a bit all over the place if t3 was the next generation lightning or not. Some were saying t3 would replace the lighting, others were saying it would be sold alongside it. It would appear as though the later is true. Perhaps their strategy is to have t3 be this radical thing to appeal to lifestyle truck buyers. While another fullsize electric truck retains the same strategy as the current lightning, offering a conventional f-150 form, with an electric drivetrain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GearheadGrrrl Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 As a "van fan", I'm happy to see Ohio Assembly slated to get an EV van, so sounds like we'll be getting the Transit Custom that outsells everything in Great Britain. Thank, UAW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 11 minutes ago, ExplorerDude said: Flat Rock’s investment is only $50 million, I can’t imagine that being anything major. Definitely not a new Paint Shop. I don’t even know what product it would be. It might just be a derivative of the S650. My interpretation of that investment was 50 million to expand s650 production with those derivatives, with a more substantial budget in the near future if that second product is approved, as it seems like whatever it is is pending approval right now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pffan1990 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 16 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: My interpretation of that investment was 50 million to expand s650 production with those derivatives, with a more substantial budget in the near future if that second product is approved, as it seems like whatever it is is pending approval right now. I edited my previous post where I guessed it was the Mustang Raptor. I think it could be the Mustang Hybrid program that may be pending resurrection. The $50M investment to Flat Rock could help upgrade the lines to start producing Mustang Hybrid, if that's the new product. Farley plans on rolling out more hybrid vehicles, as seen with KTP's plans to build Expedition/Navigator Hybrids, so Mustang Hybrid would be a welcome addition to the S650 Mustang lineup. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 I took a look at the last two contracts for Flat Rock and they got a much larger investment for them, but they where also building the Fusion and Continental at the time 2019 contract: Flat Rock Assembly Plant $250 million investment All new Mustang, including derivatives Lincoln Continental will continue through its product lifecycle 2017 Contract Flat Rock Assembly $400 million investment • Mustang will continue •All-new Lincoln Continental • Fusion continues through its current product lifecycle (based on market demand) •Plastic operations will balance out I really don't think 50 million would be enough to pay for Hybrid upgrades. They mentioned derivatives back in 2019, but here we are four years later and still no derivates of the Mustang. 42 minutes ago, pffan1990 said: With Farley's plans to have more hybrids, as seen with upcoming plans for Expedition/Navigator Hybrids at KTP, perhaps there is a pending plan to have Mustang Hybrid built. The $50M investment could perhaps help start building Mustang Hybrid. The Farley thing was just the press misinterpreting them wanting to make F-150 Powerboost sales 20 instead of 10% of all F-150 sales. Moving powerboost to the Navigator and Expedition is a no brainer since they are pretty much identical to the F-150 The interesting thing I picked up on was no mention HEV at MAP for the Ranger or Bronco. What is the deal with Tennessee/BOC plant? I didn't see any mention of it being part of the agreement outside being able to transfer from the Lightning assembly area to it in the future....is it being slow rolled now and won't be opened till when the new agreement is going to be negotiated in 2027? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 14 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: The interesting thing I picked up on was no mention HEV at MAP for the Ranger or Bronco. I told you all that at least 6 months ago… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: I took a look at the last two contracts for Flat Rock and they got a much larger investment for them, but they where also building the Fusion and Continental at the time 2019 contract: Flat Rock Assembly Plant $250 million investment All new Mustang, including derivatives Lincoln Continental will continue through its product lifecycle 2017 Contract Flat Rock Assembly $400 million investment • Mustang will continue •All-new Lincoln Continental • Fusion continues through its current product lifecycle (based on market demand) •Plastic operations will balance out I really don't think 50 million would be enough to pay for Hybrid upgrades. They mentioned derivatives back in 2019, but here we are four years later and still no derivates of the Mustang. The Farley thing was just the press misinterpreting them wanting to make F-150 Powerboost sales 20 instead of 10% of all F-150 sales. Moving powerboost to the Navigator and Expedition is a no brainer since they are pretty much identical to the F-150 The interesting thing I picked up on was no mention HEV at MAP for the Ranger or Bronco. What is the deal with Tennessee/BOC plant? I didn't see any mention of it being part of the agreement outside being able to transfer from the Lightning assembly area to it in the future....is it being slow rolled now and won't be opened till when the new agreement is going to be negotiated in 2027? Future plant consolidation is my prediction. Agreed??? Why have all this transfer language if this is not a possibility with all this EV shit and termination of some ICE models? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hllywd Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Still scrolling through the 800+ pages. Are the product commitments listed under Job Security? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Union: zero concessions this contract Also union: no back pay for people not on strike LMAO can’t make it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 12 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I told you all that at least 6 months ago… But you know how things change... So hear me out on this-with the apparent pullback on EVs (which seems to be a bit premature and hyped up by the press at the moment) Plus the HEV going away on the civilian side of the Explorer, which would lead me to think that they might be looking at putting the 2.3L Ecoboost Powerboost into it, which would make it easier to put into the Bronco and Ranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 12 minutes ago, hllywd said: Still scrolling through the 800+ pages. Are the product commitments listed under Job Security? ASSEMBLY OPERATIONS Plant Product Investment Chicago Assembly $400 million investment • Current Explorer will continue, including HEV and Police • Aviator will continue through its product lifecycle Dearborn Truck / REVC $900 million investment • F-150 will continue, including HEV and Raptor • F-150 Lightning will continue through its product lifecycle • All new EV truck will be added Flat Rock Assembly $50 million investment • Mustang will continue • Pending program approval new product will be added Kansas City Assembly $1.0 billion investment • F-150 will continue, including HEV and Police • Transit will continue • Transit EV will continue through its planned product lifecycle Kentucky Truck $750 million investment • Super Duty will continue • Expedition will continue, including HEV • Navigator will continue, including HEV Louisville Assembly $1.2 billion investment • Escape will continue through its planned product lifecycle • Corsair will continue through its planned product lifecycle • All new EV product will be added Michigan Assembly including Integral Stamping and Assembly (ISA) / Body Stamping Unit (BSU) $250 million investment • Current Ranger will continue, including Raptor • Current Bronco will continue, including Raptor • 3rd production crew will be added • Stamping for Mustang, Bronco including Raptor, Ranger including Raptor, F-150, Expedition, Navigator, and Super Duty will continue • Stamping for Escape, Corsair will continue thru their planned lifecycle Ohio Assembly $2.1 billion investment • All new EV van to be added • Medium Truck will continue • Super Duty will continue • E-Series Cutaway and Stripped Chassis will continue $8.1 billion in investment by end of the agreement ENGINE OPERATIONS Plant Product Investment Dearborn Engine $20 million investment • Duratec engine will continue • 5.2L SC engine will continue • All new EV Battery Pack Cleveland Engine $100 million investment • Duratec engine will continue • Cyclone engine will continue Lima Engine $90 million investment • Cyclone engine will continue • Nano engine will continue Woodhaven Forging $3 million investment • Current engine family forgings will continue • Forged Steel Crankshaft for 7.3L Engine Program will be added TRANSMISSION AND DRIVELINE Plant Product Investment Livonia Transmission $120 million investment • 10R transmission will continue • 8FM transmission will continue • 6R transmission will continue through its planned product lifecycle • Current gears will continue Sharonville Transmission $160 million investment • 10R transmission will continue • Current gear families will continue • 6R transmission will continue through its planned product lifecycle Van Dyke Electric Powertrain Center $230 million investment • All new EV Power unit will be added • Current EV Power unit will continue • 8F57 transmission will continue • HF55 transmission will continue • 6F & HF45 will continue through their planned lifecycles Rawsonville Components $200 million investment • GEN IV Battery will continue and add additional capacity • BEV H and BEV G batteries will continue through their planned lifecycle • All new Hybrid battery • AIS, Carbon cannisters, sequencing, and 10R oil pump will continue • Coil on plug and 6R oil pump will continue thru their planned lifecycles Sterling Axle $130 million investment • Axle production will continue for the following vehicles: F150, Super Duty, Mustang, Expedition, Navigator, Explorer, Transit with Aviator axle production continuing thru its product lifecycle 8 STAMPING Plant Product Investment Buffalo Stamping $80 million investment • Stampings for Edge and Nautilus will continue through their planned product lifecycles • Stampings for all new EV will be added • Stampings for Super Duty, Expedition, Navigator, E-Series and Medium Truck will continue Chicago Stamping $30 million investment • Stampings for Explorer, Transit, and Super Duty will continue • Stampings for Aviator will continue through their planned lifecycles Dearborn Stamping $150 million investment (shared w/ DDMP) • Stamping for F-150, Expedition, Navigator, Bronco, and Super Duty will continue • Stampings for Lightning will continue through their planned lifecycle • Stampings for all new EV at REVC Dearborn Diversified Manufacturing $150 million investment (shared w/ DSP) • Hydroforming for F-150, Expedition, Navigator, and Super Duty will continue • Axle, shock, tire and wheel, front wheel end assembly for F-150 • Tire and wheel will continue for Edge through planned lifecycle Woodhaven Stamping $150 million investment • Stampings for Explorer, Bronco, Mustang, and service parts will continue • Stampings for new EV will be added • Stampings and hot metal forming for Escape, Corsair, and Aviator will continue through their planned lifecycle • Stampings and hot metal forming for Explorer will continue 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 So MAP is finally getting its third shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, mackinaw said: So MAP is finally getting its third shift. Still don’t see how, we can’t get enough parts to run 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 18 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: Future plant consolidation is my prediction. Agreed??? Why have all this transfer language if this is not a possibility with all this EV shit and termination of some ICE models? Tennessee Electric Vehicle Center (TEVC) Agreement Dearborn Truck Plant and REVC employees will have rights under a transfer of operations to relocate to the TEVC. Additionally, facilities with surplus employees will also be eligible for voluntary transfers. At the point of lawful recognition, TEVC will fall under the provisions of the Master Agreement in accordance with Article I, Section 4. Job Security EV Transition Additional job security will be provided, if needed, in the instance that all contractual provisions of Appendix M are exhausted. Employees will have rights to accept work at newly planned LLC Establishments in Kentucky and Tennessee under the provisions of the Master Agreement. REVC is Ford Rouge Electric Vehicle Center, which is part of the Dearborn Truck plant (where they build the Lightning) So reading into that, the T3 will actually start production there before BOC starts producing them-so that means that people who want to move to Dearborn will get first rights to transfer to Tennessee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 8 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: REVC is Ford Rouge Electric Vehicle Center, which is part of the Dearborn Truck plant (where they build the Lightning) So reading into that, the T3 will actually start production there before BOC starts producing them-so that means that people who want to move to Dearborn will get first rights to transfer to Tennessee. I’m also talking about future of Mustang and Flat Rock. One shift operation is never good. Ontario Truck Plant and St Thomas Assembly were one shift and they’re gone. I know the Mustang is alive and well for now it just seems like Flat Rock will either receive massive investment in the future or be repurposed. I keep reading how they need expansion and the roofs are too low etc etc. I understand what you’re saying about BLUEOVALCITY and the transfers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 16 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: REVC is Ford Rouge Electric Vehicle Center, which is part of the Dearborn Truck plant (where they build the Lightning) So reading into that, the T3 will actually start production there before BOC starts producing them-so that means that people who want to move to Dearborn will get first rights to transfer to Tennessee. Btw I know what’s products are in all the North American plants. I’m a nerd like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintguy Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 1 hour ago, ExplorerDude said: Flat Rock’s investment is only $50 million, I can’t imagine that being anything major. Definitely not a new Paint Shop. I don’t even know what product it would be. It might just be a derivative of the S650. $50 million doesn't go far when you need a paint shop. Spent almost $1 billion in Chicago. And no new paint shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: I’m also talking about future of Mustang and Flat Rock. One shift operation is never good. Ontario Truck Plant and St Thomas Assembly were one shift and they’re gone. I know the Mustang is alive and well for now it just seems like Flat Rock will either receive massive investment in the future or be repurposed. I agree with you, but I'm guessing that is a battle that is getting kicked down the road and the Mustang is profitable, even though it is just one shift? Apparently the Flat Rock site is used for other things that Ford finds valuable too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, paintguy said: $50 million doesn't go far when you need a paint shop. Spent almost $1 billion in Chicago. And no new paint shop. Agreed 50 Million isn’t a massive investment at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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