New Ford Product Investments

[Rick73]

17 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

Don't forget the balance shaft.  

Yes.  Which adds weight and cost, and friction.   I-6 are also generally quieter than V-6.  When I-6 length can be dealt with, it’s a better engine than V-6  in most ways, though in some applications length can be a problem.  Even so, I recall when Ford had 5 or 6 inline-sixes ranging from 144 to 300 cubic inches.

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

The thing is that no one has proved that "detuning" a modern engine actually makes it get better MPGs...this isn't the 1980s anymore.

I was talking about hybrids using Atkinson cycle, so yes, compared to 3.0L twin-turbo 500 HP Stellantis engine, it would be more fuel efficient.

 

As I said before, I don’t expect an inline-6 at all, but the one that would make most sense to me is an engine with Atkinson cycle larger than 2.5L so it could power larger and heavier hybrid vehicles.

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

Don't forget the balance shaft.  

I don’t think the Cyclone or Nanos have balancer shafts.

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I was talking about hybrids using Atkinson cycle, so yes, compared to 3.0L twin-turbo 500 HP Stellantis engine, it would be more fuel efficient.

 

As I said before, I don’t expect an inline-6 at all, but the one that would make most sense to me is an engine with Atkinson cycle larger than 2.5L so it could power larger and heavier hybrid vehicles.

 

Once again its an apples vs oranges situation-your too hung up on overall efficiency vs power output. 

 

Just as an example-Toyota used an Atkinson cycle on its V6 in the Taco and the fuel economy isn't really that great of an improvement vs its competition at the time

 

https://www.cars.com/articles/engine-deep-dive-toyota-tacomas-atkinson-cycle-v-6-454806/

 

We’ve spent some time driving V-6 Tacomas with a 4×4 drivetrain. How does it compare with other mid-size V-6 4x4s (or all-wheel drive) with automatic transmissions in terms of EPA ratings? The 2019 Tacoma achieves an EPA rating of 18/22/20 mpg city/highway combined while the 2019 Chevrolet Colorado gets 17/24/19 and the 2019 Honda Ridgeline gets 18/25/21, putting them all in the same fuel-economy ballpark. The Tacoma bests the Colorado by 1 mpg combined but falls 2 mpg combined behind the Ridgeline. It does better across the board than the previous-generation 2015 Tacoma with the 4.0-liter V-6 and five-speed automatic, which rated 16/21/18.

 

In the grand scheme of things I've yet to see something with something larger then a 4 banger in it that gets a huge MPG increase using a hybrid setup...in 6 and 8 setups, the hybrid is used as a power adder or used for other things. 

 

 

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Once again its an apples vs oranges situation-your too hung up on overall efficiency vs power output. 

 

Just as an example-Toyota used an Atkinson cycle on its V6 in the Taco and the fuel economy isn't really that great of an improvement vs its competition at the time

 

https://www.cars.com/articles/engine-deep-dive-toyota-tacomas-atkinson-cycle-v-6-454806/

 

Apparently Toyota is also “hung up on overall efficiency” given the new Tacoma has a hybrid powertrain with significant fuel economy improvements.  And that it has more power is a plus.  Why do you even bring up a comparison of trucks from 5 years ago when none are hybrids or had real Atkinson engines?  The Toyota 3.5L tested back then had simulated Atkinson cycle but did not take full advantage of technology, plus it wasn’t a hybrid.  Talking about apples and oranges …..

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Apparently Toyota is also “hung up on overall efficiency” given the new Tacoma has a hybrid powertrain with significant fuel economy improvements.  And that it has more power is a plus.  Why do you even bring up a comparison of trucks from 5 years ago when none are hybrids or had real Atkinson engines?  The Toyota 3.5L tested back then had simulated Atkinson cycle but did not take full advantage of technology, plus it wasn’t a hybrid.  Talking about apples and oranges …..

 

And nor is the new Tacoma a V6 hybird either....

According to some research the not so real atkinson engine in the Tacoma was actually more a atkinson cycle then the prius was at the time.

 

The point your completely missing is that larger hybrid engines (AKA 6 and 8 cyc) engines are not going to see a significant improvement in MPGs due to many different factors (lets see...added weight, increased frontal area due to being larger product, performance objectives, towing,so on and so forth) that smaller products that use a hybrid I4 powertrain. That is why they are marketed as power adders or other functionality like Ford Powerboost for providing power. 

[silvrsvt]

So getting back on topic. Fordauthory is reporting this:

SECOND GENERATION FORD E-TRANSIT MAY BE BUILT IN OHIO

 

According to this product roadmap released by the UAW, an “all-new EV van” is set to be added to the Ohio Assembly plant, which currently builds and will continue to build medium duty trucks, the Ford Super Duty, and the Ford E-Series cutaway and chassis cab models. It’s unclear what this new EV van might be, but it’s quite possible that this document refers to the second-generation Ford E-Transit. Currently, that model is produced at the Kansas City Assembly plant, but the UAW’s document notes that production of the “Transit EV will continue through its planned product lifecycle” – meaning that it could end there once the first-gen model has run its course.

[Deanh]

12 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

So getting back on topic. Fordauthory is reporting this:

SECOND GENERATION FORD E-TRANSIT MAY BE BUILT IN OHIO

 

 

 

you trying to put me on suicide watch?....lol....Id prefer they ditch the Transit BEV altogether and bring their Custom...they should NOT walk away from the compact Cargo van market...the Custome is a tad bigger than the Connect...PERFECT size wize...and hopefully they learned that range is important....

[silvrsvt]

7 minutes ago, Deanh said:

you trying to put me on suicide watch?....lol....Id prefer they ditch the Transit BEV altogether and bring their Custom...they should NOT walk away from the compact Cargo van market...the Custome is a tad bigger than the Connect...PERFECT size wize...and hopefully they learned that range is important....

 

I think they'll still build ICE transits till you can retire ?

 

[Deanh]

7 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I think they'll still build ICE transits till you can retire ?

 

LMAO....my owners will love them....AND the flooring...maybe well get a Raptor if we take 10....

[Rick73]

Here’s interesting competition Ford will face, estimated to arrive late 2024, or roughly in a year.

 

Stellantis’ Ramcharger pickup is taking a different approach by providing BEV capability for over 100 miles, but includes a 130 kW range extender powered by a 3.6L V6.  Specs are impressive if close to right, though I expect the truck will be quite heavy as confirmed by 8-lug wheels.

 

As a BEV it has plenty of power and towing capability, and gas generator gives it range for towing and longer road trips.  Note specs are not consistent between sources, so likely two sizes of batteries and with different HP ratings.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45734742/2025-ram-1500-ramcharger-revealed/

 

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-ram-1500-ramcharger-first-look-review/
 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1141355_2025-ram-1500-ramcharger-plug-in-hybrid-pickup-ev-range

 

Will be interesting to see how this PHEV is received and whether Ford and GM respond with similar designs.

[twintornados]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Here’s interesting competition Ford will face, estimated to arrive late 2024, or roughly in a year.

 

Stellantis’ Ramcharger pickup is taking a different approach by providing BEV capability for over 100 miles, but includes a 130 kW range extender powered by a 3.6L V6.  Specs are impressive if close to right, though I expect the truck will be quite heavy as confirmed by 8-lug wheels.

 

As a BEV it has plenty of power and towing capability, and gas generator gives it range for towing and longer road trips.  Note specs are not consistent between sources, so likely two sizes of batteries and with different HP ratings.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45734742/2025-ram-1500-ramcharger-revealed/

 

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-ram-1500-ramcharger-first-look-review/
 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1141355_2025-ram-1500-ramcharger-plug-in-hybrid-pickup-ev-range

 

Will be interesting to see how this PHEV is received and whether Ford and GM respond with similar designs.

 

So, Stellantis and RAM have developed the Volt truck....

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

So, Stellantis and RAM have developed the Volt truck....

Not really, there are many important differences.  My understanding is that Volt powertrain was more than a range extender.  The Ramcharger is essentially a BEV pickup with at least 70.8 kWh battery that can provide up to 145 miles of EV range.  The Volt had much less range than that.

 

Range extenders have not been popular for many reasons (BMW and Ford Transit Custom in Europe being exceptions), but a pickup may be a better fit due to way pickups are used.  The 100+ mile EV range could meet many daily commute needs while 130 kW of continuous charging while on road should allow taking long road trips, even when towing.

 

The math makes Ramcharger an interesting vehicle to evaluate.  Future RAM Extended Range BEV is reported to have about +/- 220 kWh battery, about same as Silverado, which means that using only 70.8 kWh for PHEV variant saves about 150 kWh of battery capacity.  That much battery savings may pay for engine/generator (range extender) and also offset most if not all engine/generator weight.  I’m interested in seeing more specs.

 

 

 

 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Not really, there are many important differences.  My understanding is that Volt powertrain was more than a range extender.  The Ramcharger is essentially a BEV pickup with at least 70.8 kWh battery that can provide up to 145 miles of EV range.  The Volt had much less range than that.

 

 

The range was less but at speeds under 70 mph the volt engine was strictly a battery charger and was not connected to the drivetrain.  

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

The range was less but at speeds under 70 mph the volt engine was strictly a battery charger and was not connected to the drivetrain.  

The Ramcharger doesn’t have a mechanical connection between engine and wheels at all, so that’s a significant difference.  They mention 145 miles of range, so even if it’s only 100 miles per charge, that makes it a lot more like a BEV that most any PHEV I’m aware of. 

 

I can imagine a similar powertrain arrangement working for some Super Duty pickup applications.  For owners who tow longer distances most of the time, or mostly take long trips (hence use gas regularly) it may not be a good choice, but for many who drive less than 100 miles daily, it could work much like a BEV without having to haul around 3 times as much battery capacity.  Obviously you’d have to haul around an extra engine/generator and gas tank instead, but that may be a good trade off.

[akirby]

36 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

The Ramcharger doesn’t have a mechanical connection between engine and wheels at all, so that’s a significant difference.

But the volt doesn’t use the mechanical connection until it hits 70 mph.  Below 70 it’s strictly a generator charging the batteries.

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

 

I can imagine a similar powertrain arrangement working for some Super Duty pickup applications.  

Potentially, but it would seem as though a more conventional hybrid might be the way to go with the super duty. If you paired the 6.7 with a series of electric motors, the performance would be off the charts impressive. These odd range extender BEVs seem like an hard sale for even EV lovers, never mind traditionalists who tend to be reluctant to adopt new tech. 

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Not really, there are many important differences.  My understanding is that Volt powertrain was more than a range extender.  The Ramcharger is essentially a BEV pickup with at least 70.8 kWh battery that can provide up to 145 miles of EV range.  The Volt had much less range than that.

yeah but the Volt didn’t have a 14,000 lb towing capacity either, that 145 mile electric range will become about 40 miles with a full trailer and that is a dealbreaker for many people - the plug in isn’t a good idea used that way but much better for on-site power for tradies or people camping.

 

Quote

 

Range extenders have not been popular for many reasons (BMW and Ford Transit Custom in Europe being exceptions), but a pickup may be a better fit due to way pickups are used.  The 100+ mile EV range could meet many daily commute needs while 130 kW of continuous charging while on road should allow taking long road trips, even when towing.

A range extender in Europe  cannot be used to sustain charge, it must eventually let the battery run flat

Some US states are writing rules to that effect as well.

 

Quote

 

The math makes Ramcharger an interesting vehicle to evaluate.  Future RAM Extended Range BEV is reported to have about +/- 220 kWh battery, about same as Silverado, which means that using only 70.8 kWh for PHEV variant saves about 150 kWh of battery capacity.  That much battery savings may pay for engine/generator (range extender) and also offset most if not all engine/generator weight.  I’m interested in seeing more specs.

Or maybe a straight hybrid would save even more money by dragging less weight in the first place…

Im wondering if Stellantis has done its homework or just throwing things out there to see what sticks

Edited November 9, 2023 by jpd80

[Rick73]

7 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Or maybe a straight hybrid would save even more money by dragging less weight in the first place…

Im wondering if Stellantis has done its homework or just throwing things out there to see what sticks

Edited 7 hours ago by jpd80

Devil is in the details, and we will need to see a lot more to have a better idea, but the concept itself of a “range-extender” seems viable to me for large pickup trucks like this where the load can vary from running empty some or most of the time, to having to pull a 10,000-pound camper, boat, or similar once a month.  The huge swing in energy needs makes this different in my mind than if we were talking about a car, where going straight BEV makes more sense.  Technically, I see a huge difference between cars and pickups because of way they are used/operated.

 

It’s not like Ford hasn’t thought about advantage of a range extender either:

 

https://fordauthority.com/2020/10/ford-files-patent-for-electric-f-150-range-extending-generator/

 

 

jpd80, a big difference with Ramcharger is that generator is more than a traditional “range extender” in that it can deliver 130 kW continuous; and if it does, that’s enough power to pull a trailer for as long as you have gas in tank.  It’s not just supplemental power but can be primary power source.  Fuel (gasoline) economy while on highway towing will no doubt be lower than if it was a hybrid or ICE due to electrical inefficiency being greater than a transmission, but if towing is not a frequent event, then energy savings when operated as a BEV on a regular basis may make up the difference, and then some.

 

Another advantage I like is the 7.2 kW power source (same as Pro Power Onboard) seems even more useable for many applications.  In case of F-150 Hybrid, a significant electrical load like air conditioning a large camper can force F-150 engine to essentially remain on all the time because battery is very small.  And in case of Lightning, if boondocking and powering camper air conditioners for more than a day, once battery is depleted, it has to be recharged.  Same applies to powering house electrical during power outages.  Short duration is OK but long periods like after hurricanes can be an issue.  A Ramcharger should be able to operate like the F-150 Lightning but with ability to start engine once or twice a day for a few minutes and top off battery.  A camper could stay out for an entire week while enjoying air conditioning.  Business applications powering tools or equipment could have similar advantages.

 

A big concern I see is how they package a V6 engine on top of the BEV chassis and still maintain adequate cooling for both, not to mention access to service and repair everything.  It could all work fine, or it could be a nightmare.  Who knows?  It will come down to details. The concept itself I like thinking it has a lot of potential.

[Rick73]

8 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Potentially, but it would seem as though a more conventional hybrid might be the way to go with the super duty. If you paired the 6.7 with a series of electric motors, the performance would be off the charts impressive. These odd range extender BEVs seem like an hard sale for even EV lovers, never mind traditionalists who tend to be reluctant to adopt new tech. 

If limited to one vehicle, I think the Ramcharger could meet all my needs better than anything else I have seen.  With 100+ miles of EV range I would rarely buy gas when not traveling, it could power my house needs during power outages (had plenty of those up to a week or longer), would allow towing a camper or hauling one in bed, and also drive over 600 miles a day when needed.

 

To your point, I don’t know what it would take to upgrade this design to increase tow rating from 14,000 to say 30,000 pounds for a Super Duty, but it may be  possible as long as overall weight doesn’t get too heavy.  The great thing about range extenders is that the engine only has to be large enough to meet average power needs since electric motors can be much more powerful than engine.  The Ramcharger as example has over 600 HP but engine/generator about 200 HP (a little less continuous and a bit more peak per preliminary specs).

[rperez817]

14 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I can imagine a similar powertrain arrangement working for some Super Duty pickup applications. 

 

Hopefully Ford skips the ICE powered range extender arrangement entirely, and is able to bring BEV (Lightning?) F-Series Super Duty, at least the F-250 and F-350 versions, to market before Stellantis and GM do for their HD pickups.

[GearheadGrrrl]

A key problem for PHEV and especially EV heavy duty pickups is that they'll be so heavy that even modest loads will push them over the 10K pounds regulatory threshold. The Ramcharger probably has 8 bolt wheels for a reason...

[twintornados]

14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

yeah but the Volt didn’t have a 14,000 lb towing capacity either, that 145 mile electric range will become about 40 miles with a full trailer and that is a dealbreaker for many people - the plug in isn’t a good idea used that way but much better for on-site power for tradies or people camping.

 

Ford has you covered

https://electrek.co/2023/07/13/ford-patents-portable-charging-trailer-power-ev/

 

Or...

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34277725/ford-f-150-range-extender-ev-pickup-patent/

Edited November 9, 2023 by twintornados

[jpd80]

30 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

Ford has you covered

https://electrek.co/2023/07/13/ford-patents-portable-charging-trailer-power-ev/

 

Or...

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34277725/ford-f-150-range-extender-ev-pickup-patent/

If I’m not mistaken, those sorts of range extender generators are being made illegal in California (what isn’t?) and the aligned states. Often chuckle at the thought of an EV towing a trailer with a diesel charger…

 

I saw the funniest thing on YouTube the other day, One of the motoring associations in Australia God bless them, constructed a 4 x 150 Kw  outlet charging facility in a remote part of Australia. The little charging station was replete with solar cells in the canopy and diesel generator and battery. There was roughly 20 square metres of solar cells probably good for 20kw hr if the sun was perfectly placed, problem was it was supposed to feed 4 x 150 Kwhr charging outlets……in spite of messaging, I think the hero was the diesel generator assisted by a smallish lithium battery.
 

I guess the point is that people will be turning up in the middle of nowhere in electric vehicles just expecting a charge point because their phone say so…

Edited November 9, 2023 by jpd80

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Hopefully Ford skips the ICE powered range extender arrangement entirely, and is able to bring BEV (Lightning?) F-Series Super Duty, at least the F-250 and F-350 versions, to market before Stellantis and GM do for their HD pickups.

Yes, but how much battery are you willing to install in one pickup truck?  If you recall, it has been estimated that a HD pickup (or any pickup for the most part) towing a large commercial trailer or similar-size large 5th wheel camper will require more than 1 kWh per mile at highway speeds.

 

With present batteries charging quickly only up to 80% or so, a Super Duty with massive 400 kWh of battery capacity would likely need to stop every couple of hours to recharge on a long haul trip, and because the battery is so large, it would take close to an hour to get up to 80%.

 

The physics of the problem can not be overcome with wishful thinking.  Electrically it can be done since it’s no worse than Tesla Semi, but cost to add half that much battery is cost prohibitive.  And like Tesla Semi, to make it somewhat practical requires a special fast charger that is in the range of 1 Megawatt.

 

I thought a BEV Super Duty given present technology had already been ruled out by Ford.  Maybe a Super Duty with about 150 kWh battery to handle daily driving and short trips, backed by a +/- 200 kW engine/generator for longer trips may be a good compromise for now.  At least it “might” be somewhat affordable.