New Ford Product Investments

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, Footballfan said:

If folks go to Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, etc because they can't get what they want from Ford, they may never come back. 

 

Ford is emphasizing sales quality over sales quantity nowadays. If the folks you mentioned were not Ford sheeple and purchased a new Ford car for the deal rather than product merit (which was the case for nearly all U.S. market Ford sedans in the recent past for example), Ford probably doesn't want them to come back.

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

CAFE has an awful lot to answer for, forcing Ford to literally LOSE money chasing a damn near impossible dream...  

 

It's the automakers including Ford that have a lot to answer for with CAFE and similar requirements elsewhere in the world. Automotive is a highly regulated industry globally and if a company wants to play the game, they need to abide by the rules. To paraphrase Aaron Robinson from Car and Driver.

 

The relationship between government and the [automotive] industry follows this pattern:

1. Government demands something

2. Industry screams that it's impossible

3. Industry then delivers exactly what was demanded.

Repeat steps one through three about 67,000 times and you define the modern automobile.

 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

It's the automakers including Ford that have a lot to answer for with CAFE and similar requirements elsewhere in the world. Automotive is a highly regulated industry globally and if a company wants to play the game, they need to abide by the rules. 

 

An awful lot of lobbying politicians went into CAFE regs - has been so for decades, the whole vehicle footprint thing was biased towards larger vehicles getting an easier break while small efficient sedans were lumped with unreasonable fuel economy targets. The fact that all utilities were  regarded as trucks and easier fuel economy targets is another screaming hypocrisy.

 

Is no wonder that everyone abandoned efficient cars and pushed utilities to the max, they could make at least $3,000 more profit by selling Edge over Focus., so why wouldn’t you…..I’m not usually  a conspiracy theorist but when you look at the auto industry it’s pretty obvious that they were for a long time using governments to push people into bigger vehicles than they required.

 

I look at BEVs as the automakers get out of jail free card, a way of continuing their business and eliminating the need for buying  fuel and  transferring the responsibility of emissions to power utilities.

The only problem is getting people to buy the damn things.

Edited November 3, 2023 by jpd80

[akirby]

6 hours ago, Footballfan said:

The more butts you have behind the wheel of a Ford vehicle the better.  If folks go to Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, etc because they can't get what they want from Ford, they may never come back. 

Ford’s conquest sales have repeatedly proven that’s not true.  Building vehicles with little to no profit is what almost put them into bankruptcy in 2008.

 

What about people driving Kias that want a pickup or a Bronco or a Ranger or Bronco Sport or Maverick?  
 

One day they can build $30k BEVs and make money doing it.  Today is not that day.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Ford’s conquest sales have repeatedly proven that’s not true.  Building vehicles with little to no profit is what almost put them into bankruptcy in 2008.

 

What about people driving Kias that want a pickup or a Bronco or a Ranger or Bronco Sport or Maverick?  
 

One day they can build $30k BEVs and make money doing it.  Today is not that day.

You nailed it.
Apart form BEVs, Ford is struggling to supply enough F Series to buyers, Explorer/Aviator is still suffering infernal stop sale parts issues, Ranger/Bronco again a parts supply nightmare…..so many places Ford could fill out inventory an get a ton more sales but external supply issues killing that plus the months of strikes….

 

So sad about Mach E, I think For is about to add incentives to get 13,000 odd vehicles out the door….

truly, they could move next Gen Mach E production to Oakville with the two GE2s and use Cuautitlan

for more C2 production/ hybrids ect…

Edited November 4, 2023 by jpd80

[pffan1990]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

So sad about Mach E, I think For is about to add incentives to get 13,000 odd vehicles out the door….

truly, they could move next Gen Mach E production to Oakville with the two GE2s and use Cuautitlan

for more C2 production/ hybrids ect…

 

I second the idea about the move of next gen production of Mach-E to OAC. There is also supposedly a Mach-E Coupe coming that could be built there alongside the two GE2s. This would free up Cuautitlan for production of the affordable CE1 EVs seeing how the plant has already been tooled for EV production. In the meantime, Louisville could keep making Escape/Corsair through its planned 2025 demise, along with the addition of overflow capacity Bronco Sport and Maverick, plus perhaps even a new C2 product or two (Nautilus and Evos anyone?). Louisville could scale production of all the ICE C2 products based on demand for the rest of the decade. Then eventually convert that plant as another EV plant in the future when it's a good time to do so. By then, the second Kentucky battery plant, currently delayed, would surely have completed production.

[7Mary3]

On 11/2/2023 at 1:26 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

 

This is showing a start date of 1/5/2026 for the CX823 Escape...but I'm willing to bet money that sides to the right at least till the end of that year...if not 2027

 

 

Anyone notice the 650/750, E series, and F53 are not on this list?  Also shows P768 as the next gen. Super Duty coming in the 2029MY. 

[Oac98]

10 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You nailed it.
Apart form BEVs, Ford is struggling to supply enough F Series to buyers, Explorer/Aviator is still suffering infernal stop sale parts issues, Ranger/Bronco again a parts supply nightmare…..so many places Ford could fill out inventory an get a ton more sales but external supply issues killing that plus the months of strikes….

 

So sad about Mach E, I think For is about to add incentives to get 13,000 odd vehicles out the door….

truly, they could move next Gen Mach E production to Oakville with the two GE2s and use Cuautitlan

for more C2 production/ hybrids ect…

We all know that Ford had planned to build the Mach E with the two mystery BEVs in Mexico then their projected 200000 Mach e units sales have failed so far. I like the idea of course but who knows if the Mach e will ever be built here, 

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, pffan1990 said:

 

I second the idea about the move of next gen production of Mach-E to OAC. There is also supposedly a Mach-E Coupe coming that could be built there alongside the two GE2s. This would free up Cuautitlan for production of the affordable CE1 EVs seeing how the plant has already been tooled for EV production. In the meantime, Louisville could keep making Escape/Corsair through its planned 2025 demise, along with the addition of overflow capacity Bronco Sport and Maverick, plus perhaps even a new C2 product or two (Nautilus and Evos anyone?). Louisville could scale production of all the ICE C2 products based on demand for the rest of the decade. Then eventually convert that plant as another EV plant in the future when it's a good time to do so. By then, the second Kentucky battery plant, currently delayed, would surely have completed production.

 

That isn't going to happen, since Mexico is supplying the EU with the Mach E, due to its favorable trade status. 

[jpd80]

29 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

We all know that Ford had planned to build the Mach E with the two mystery BEVs in Mexico then their projected 200000 Mach e units sales have failed so far. I like the idea of course but who knows if the Mach e will ever be built here, 

Looking at the vehicle plan posted by 7Mary3 (thanks), Ford was intending to build versions of GE2 at multiple locations, that is assuming high volume that is yet to be seen. Consolidation at Oakville was just a thought if sales of BEVs stay sluggish. But anything could happen.

[jpd80]

15 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That isn't going to happen, since Mexico is supplying the EU with the Mach E, due to its favorable trade status. 

I wonder what effect the European BEV Explorer will have on Mustang sales,

perhaps being lower cost, it will displace more than a few Mach E sales?

[DeluxeStang]

13 hours ago, akirby said:

Do we even know if these product plans are accurate? It seems like we're all debating the choices made here, assuming they're based in reality. But this document clearly gets some things wrong, just look at s750. It says it'll be based on the electric GE2.2 architecture, implying the next gen mustang will be all electric. This goes against what Farley has been saying. 

 

Then there's the fact that it shows this generation of explorer running until 2035, that has to be a typo. It's debatable that CD6 as a platform would survive that long, and there's a zero percent chance a single explorer generation would run for 15-16 years. It's not a generational change but it uses the same platform kinda deal either, it doesn't show a stop gap for that explorer generation until 2035. 

[rperez817]

13 hours ago, akirby said:

Ford’s conquest sales have repeatedly proven that’s not true.  

 

It's the Ford sheeple/loyalist customers that really deserve credit here. In the U.S., Ford has among the highest loyalty rates of any automotive brand (only Tesla is higher), but the lowest conquest rate.

 

[Oac98]

13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You nailed it.
Apart form BEVs, Ford is struggling to supply enough F Series to buyers, Explorer/Aviator is still suffering infernal stop sale parts issues, Ranger/Bronco again a parts supply nightmare…..so many places Ford could fill out inventory an get a ton more sales but external supply issues killing that plus the months of strikes….

 

So sad about Mach E, I think For is about to add incentives to get 13,000 odd vehicles out the door….

truly, they could move next Gen Mach E production to Oakville with the two GE2s and use Cuautitlan

for more C2 production/ hybrids ect…

 

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Looking at the vehicle plan posted by 7Mary3 (thanks), Ford was intending to build versions of GE2 at multiple locations, that is assuming high volume that is yet to be seen. Consolidation at Oakville was just a thought if sales of BEVs stay sluggish. But anything could happen.

I guess the market will dictate how far they’re willing to go with their plans. Maybe things will improve with gen 2 products 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

It's the Ford sheeple/loyalist customers that really deserve credit here. In the U.S., 

Ford EVs and the products that replaced Fusion and Focus enjoy 60%+ conquest rates.  Those buyers are much more likely to buy another Ford than a Fusion, Focus or super cheap BEV buyer.

 

How many of those people that bought super cheap Nissan leafs 10 years ago stayed with Nissan?  Probably very few because they only bought them because they were so cheap ($199 leases).

[Bob Rosadini]

13 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Anyone notice the 650/750, E series, and F53 are not on this list?  Also shows P768 as the next gen. Super Duty coming in the 2029MY. 

Isn't 650/750  on going as P708?

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Do we even know if these product plans are accurate? It seems like we're all debating the choices made here, assuming they're based in reality. But this document clearly gets some things wrong, just look at s750. It says it'll be based on the electric GE2.2 architecture, implying the next gen mustang will be all electric. This goes against what Farley has been saying. 

 

Then there's the fact that it shows this generation of explorer running until 2035, that has to be a typo. It's debatable that CD6 as a platform would survive that long, and there's a zero percent chance a single explorer generation would run for 15-16 years. It's not a generational change but it uses the same platform kinda deal either, it doesn't show a stop gap for that explorer generation until 2035. 

From what I gather, these publications are intended as general guidance to the industry,

most likely planning of supplier contracts that regularly change. To say they paint a lot of

blue sky would be an understatement, I’d also say mischief and misdirection for their

competition thinking they’ve stumbled on Ford’s leaked genius plans…..

The key takeaway is some of it is true while the rest is a stretch and probably just “placeholders”

for product  decisions that either haven’t been made yet or have confirmed gone a different direction.

 

So how can they be accurate? like those  2029 products running to the 2030s - that should be a dead giveaway….

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by jpd80

[pffan1990]

8 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

That isn't going to happen, since Mexico is supplying the EU with the Mach E, due to its favorable trade status. 

 

My post was in direct response to jpd80's post in which he first suggested moving the Mach-E production to OAC. However, I forgot about the Mexico-EU trade system that's already in use. Perhaps the previously-cancelled San Luis Potosi plant could be built. This would make a great plant for the affordable CE1 EVs. In fact, an insider here has mentioned that Ford is considering building the SLP plant.

 

6 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Then there's the fact that it shows this generation of explorer running until 2035, that has to be a typo. It's debatable that CD6 as a platform would survive that long, and there's a zero percent chance a single explorer generation would run for 15-16 years. It's not a generational change but it uses the same platform kinda deal either, it doesn't show a stop gap for that explorer generation until 2035. 

 

I'm thinking that's likely a misprint. There's the updated 2025 Explorer coming in a few months that does remain on the 'U625' CD6. The listing of the next generation ICE Explorer is likely missing from this sheet, which is why it mistakenly shows the 'U625' lasting through December 22, 2035. Either the Explorer remains on the rear drive CD6 for next generation ICE or it switches to the front drive-based 'C2' with possibly all wheel drive standard. I'm just speculating here. Ford changes their plans so often that it's hard for anyone to keep up. But we'll see what happens with the next Explorer.

[silvrsvt]

6 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Do we even know if these product plans are accurate? It seems like we're all debating the choices made here, assuming they're based in reality. But this document clearly gets some things wrong, just look at s750. It says it'll be based on the electric GE2.2 architecture, implying the next gen mustang will be all electric. This goes against what Farley has been saying. 

 

Then there's the fact that it shows this generation of explorer running until 2035, that has to be a typo. It's debatable that CD6 as a platform would survive that long, and there's a zero percent chance a single explorer generation would run for 15-16 years. It's not a generational change but it uses the same platform kinda deal either, it doesn't show a stop gap for that explorer generation until 2035. 

 

10 minutes ago, pffan1990 said:

I'm thinking that's likely a misprint. There's the updated 2025 Explorer coming in a few months that does remain on the 'U625' CD6. The listing of the next generation ICE Explorer is likely missing from this sheet, which is why it mistakenly shows the 'U625' lasting through December 22, 2035. Either the Explorer remains on the rear drive CD6 for next generation ICE or it switches to the front drive-based 'C2' with possibly all wheel drive standard. I'm just speculating here. Ford changes their plans so often that it's hard for anyone to keep up. But we'll see what happens with the next Explorer.

 

All Ford has said is they would like to keep the Mustang as long as possible with as an ICE product and a 2030 Mustang might just be a EV. 

 

As for the Explorer ICE-according to Explorerdude there is going to be another major refresh in a few years (2028?) and it lasting 2035 isn't really any stretch of the imagination- roughly 15% of sales are PIU units and depending on how the market place is, the ICE Explorer might just be fleet sales till it goes away or the market changes so much that they don't need it. 

[jpd80]

9 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

 

All Ford has said is they would like to keep the Mustang as long as possible with as an ICE product and a 2030 Mustang might just be a EV. 

And if they do hybrid version of either V8 or 2.3 EB, then the  EV Mustang coupe may be pushed backwards..

 

9 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

As for the Explorer ICE-according to Explorerdude there is going to be another major refresh in a few years (2028?) and it lasting 2035 isn't really any stretch of the imagination- roughly 15% of sales are PIU units and depending on how the market place is, the ICE Explorer might just be fleet sales till it goes away or the market changes so much that they don't need it. 

Correct, ICE platforms will get updates or evolutionary changes over the next decade, that’s clever use of funds.

Edited November 5, 2023 by jpd80

[Rick73]

7 hours ago, jpd80 said:

And if they do hybrid version of either V8 or 2.3 EB, then the  EV Mustang coupe may be pushed backwards..

Isn’t it too early to rule out a new engine just yet?  If ICE is around another 10 years or longer, a newer more advanced and or cheaper-to-manufacture 6-cylinder could have a home between 2.3L EB and V8.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/ford-f-150-prechamber-ignition-research/

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Isn’t it too early to rule out a new engine just yet?  If ICE is around another 10 years or longer, a newer more advanced and or cheaper-to-manufacture 6-cylinder could have a home between 2.3L EB and V8.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/ford-f-150-prechamber-ignition-research/

Of course that’s a possibility but that article is from early 2021 and since then, Ford has let go of a lot of engine development staff.

Remember back then, there was also talk of the Germans developing an engine that could switch between spark ignition and compression ignition (HCCI?) but it died off once places like Europe and China started legislating ICE out of existence.

[Oac98]

On 11/4/2023 at 8:46 AM, silvrsvt said:

 

That isn't going to happen, since Mexico is supplying the EU with the Mach E, due to its favorable trade status. 

Canada and the EU also have CETA agreement. Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement with the European Union which is a free trade agreement. Supposedly we at OAC are suppose to export there too. If these vehicles are 7 seaters what’s the point of exporting them to Europe when smaller vehicles seem to rule there anyways. I doubt the Mach e would ever be built in Oakville as well but I’m just saying there is a free trade agreement in place up here too. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Oacjay98

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Of course that’s a possibility but that article is from early 2021 and since then, Ford has let go of a lot of engine development staff.

Remember back then, there was also talk of the Germans developing an engine that could switch between spark ignition and compression ignition (HCCI?) but it died off once places like Europe and China started legislating ICE out of existence.

Was not aware of Germans developing technology, but have seen mention of Mazda and GM.  Isn’t latest Mazda Skyactiv technology a version of HCCL?  The Maserati system mentioned for possible future F-150 sounds a bit different to me, but I didn’t read articles closely.  In any case, I think features of the mentioned F-150 engine could be developed and implemented without the entire broader scope.  For example, the new engine is reported to target significant weight reduction, and that may be possible without the pre-chamber design (in case that part doesn’t work out).

 

Also different than present engines is the very long proposed stroke-to-bore ratio of 4:3, which could also be implemented separately.  Present V6s are close to square and can’t be stroked that much.  The new Mustang 2.3L EB on the other hand already has very long stroke-to-bore ratio, which is why I have speculated that if there is a new I-6, it may be a 3.4L inline-6 based on newest Mustang 2.3L EB.

[DeluxeStang]

13 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Isn’t it too early to rule out a new engine just yet?  If ICE is around another 10 years or longer, a newer more advanced and or cheaper-to-manufacture 6-cylinder could have a home between 2.3L EB and V8.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/ford-f-150-prechamber-ignition-research/

With the sports coupe market in decline, it would be hard to justify the development of an entirely new engine. There were some rumors of an inline 6 some time ago. Perhaps Ford could develop that engine for a next gen f-150, and punch up the performance for a mustang, but I don't see that happening.