Ford November 2023 Sales

[ice-capades]

27 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

You’re partly correct, but I’m not aware of any real attempt to design a large vehicle yet using Atkinson engine, so does that prove it won’t deliver improved fuel economy, or only that it hasn’t been tried yet?  One of the largest I’m aware of is Stellantis minivan with 3.6L V6.  Obviously they also have plans to manufacture a PHEV pickup with Atkinson as a range extender, but we will have to see how that works out.  I’m guessing pretty good in city due to large battery capacity, but not great on highway or towing due to series inefficiency (there’s that word again).

 

Regardless, that wasn’t the point I made originally which silvrsvt took completely out of context just to argue.  At least I have the education and professional work experience to discuss efficiency and know what I’m talking about.  My original point was whether Ford will use EcoBoost in conjunction with hybrid.  Some companies do, like Hyundai, but most successful hybrids today use Atkinson because electrification takes on a larger role than ICE towards performance.  There are many pros and cons to both.  I personally prefer Atkinson over EcoBoost or Miller.  Just my preference.

 

Enough already! This forum subject is getting way off-topic. Much more and one of us is going to shut it down.   

[akirby]

43 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

You’re partly correct, but I’m not aware of any real attempt to design a large vehicle yet using Atkinson engine, so does that prove it won’t deliver improved fuel economy, or only that it hasn’t been tried yet?  One of the largest I’m aware of is Stellantis minivan with 3.6L V6.  Obviously they also have plans to manufacture a PHEV pickup with Atkinson as a range extender, but we will have to see how that works out.  I’m guessing pretty good in city due to large battery capacity, but not great on highway or towing due to series inefficiency (there’s that word again).

 

Regardless, that wasn’t the point I made originally which silvrsvt took completely out of context just to argue.  At least I have the education and professional work experience to discuss efficiency and know what I’m talking about.  My original point was whether Ford will use EcoBoost in conjunction with hybrid.  Some companies do, like Hyundai, but most successful hybrids today use Atkinson because electrification takes on a larger role than ICE towards performance.  There are many pros and cons to both.  I personally prefer Atkinson over EcoBoost or Miller.  Just my preference.

The point is it’s completely off topic and you’ve repeated it over and over and over.   So just drop it already and there won’t be anything to argue about.

[akirby]

We’re done here.  You two take it offline.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Oh man, it was just getting fun too

 

Party pooper

[ice-capades]

Just for fun... with all the economic factors in play (increased vehicle prices, interest rates, cost of living, consumer debt, etc.) there has to be an increase in vehicle repossession rates. Here's a visual representation. 

  

[Rick73]

FORD ESCAPE HYBRID AMONG TOP 10 FASTEST SELLING NEW CARS
 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/12/ford-escape-hybrid-among-top-10-fastest-selling-new-cars/
 

 

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

FORD ESCAPE HYBRID AMONG TOP 10 FASTEST SELLING NEW CARS
 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/12/ford-escape-hybrid-among-top-10-fastest-selling-new-cars/

 

Yeah because there’s about 188 of them at dealers nationwide, PHEV Escape has been

a hard to get product for the past two years and most seem to be built to order.

It makes sense that dealers will normally order stock that they can turn quickly.

 

Ironic that Ford wants dealers to do a  a million buck upgrade to sell Lightning and Mach E 

when cash incentives might be coming in 2024……. 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by jpd80

[Rick73]

37 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Yeah because there’s about 188 of them at dealers nationwide, PHEV Escape has been

a hard to get product for the past two years and most seem to be built to order.

It makes sense that dealers will normally order stock that they can turn quickly.

Ford had 2 vehicles on list; the other being Maverick Hybrid which is doing even better (by their measure).  Both Fords share similar powertrain.  It’s also interesting to note that quite a few of the top ten are hybrids from various manufacturers, and share a common design feature.  IMO most buyers are finally starting to embrace hybrids as mainstream rather than the original image they had of dorky Prius driven mainly by geeks.

[jpd80]

27 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Ford had 2 vehicles on list; the other being Maverick Hybrid which is doing even better (by their measure).  Both Fords share similar powertrain.  It’s also interesting to note that quite a few of the top ten are hybrids from various manufacturers, and share a common design feature.  IMO most buyers are finally starting to embrace hybrids as mainstream rather than the original image they had of dorky Prius driven mainly by geeks.

I think you’re misinterpreting time on lot vs vehicle availability 

the reason Maverick hybrid turns in lots in less than five days

is because so few of them are or at least, we’re being produced

[silvrsvt]

56 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

IMO most buyers are finally starting to embrace hybrids as mainstream rather than the original image they had of dorky Prius driven mainly by geeks.

 

I wouldn't go that far-there are just more hybrids and hybrid engines coming as standard option on vehicles. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by silvrsvt

[fuzzymoomoo]

20 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I wouldn't go that far-there are just more hybrids and hybrid engines coming as standard option on vehicles. 

I disagree, public opinion has definitely changed on hybrids and OEMs are adjusting to meet demand. 

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

I think you’re misinterpreting time on lot vs vehicle availability 

the reason Maverick hybrid turns in lots in less than five days

is because so few of them are or at least, we’re being produced

that pretty much applies to the Maverick as a whole...whilst nit experiencing the absolute frenzy there is for the hybrid version, the Ecoboost variant doesnt hang aroung long either...affordability?...comparitively speaking its considered reasonably affordable, and being a small pickup is desirable....

[Deanh]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Yeah because there’s about 188 of them at dealers nationwide, PHEV Escape has been

a hard to get product for the past two years and most seem to be built to order.

It makes sense that dealers will normally order stock that they can turn quickly.

 

Ironic that Ford wants dealers to do a  a million buck upgrade to sell Lightning and Mach E 

when cash incentives might be coming in 2024……. 

 

agreed...as far as the BEVs go, watch for rebates and low interest rates ...Fords going to have to do something to move them....

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I disagree, public opinion has definitely changed on hybrids and OEMs are adjusting to meet demand. 

Yeah, at one time no self-respecting driver would get caught dead in a hybrid; yet today “hybrid” doesn’t carry same negative connotations.

 

Reminds me that people change slowly, like when my dad purchased his first V6 after insisting he would never buy anything but a V8.  And almost 20 years later he purchased his last car, a 4-cylinder Accord.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

agreed...as far as the BEVs go, watch for rebates and low interest rates ...Fords going to have to do something to move them....

These things have a way of coming back on Ford and biting them in the ass, they were right to Perdue BEVs but I sometimes wonder how they prioritise boots n all decisions instead of a more measured approach 

Its hard when they see Tesla going off like a frog in a sock and want to be them….. there’s just not the same customer attraction level, Tesla holds court over lead compact vehicles….others need to do a better job.

 

Ford needs to still produce vehicles that dealers can service and stay in touch with customers- I know the urge to ditch dealers is strong but it would be a mistake this soon in the BEV  migration

[Deanh]

44 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Yeah, at one time no self-respecting driver would get caught dead in a hybrid; yet today “hybrid” doesn’t carry same negative connotations.

 

Reminds me that people change slowly, like when my dad purchased his first V6 after insisting he would never buy anything but a V8.  And almost 20 years later he purchased his last car, a 4-cylinder Accord.

given that, in theory the same road to acceptance should be in BEVs future...just takes a while for recalibration of mindset, and technology improvemnt will help the stigma massively....

[jpd80]

Interest in hybrids seems to vary a bit depending on gas prices but for me outside of North America they are the future away from diesels in utilities at least…..you can always sell good fuel economy when it’s on the buyer’s radar

[silvrsvt]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Interest in hybrids seems to vary a bit depending on gas prices but for me outside of North America they are the future away from diesels in utilities at least…..you can always sell good fuel economy when it’s on the buyer’s radar

 

The biggest issue is that Hybrids are normally about a 3-4K upcharge over an ICE to save maybe $8 bucks a week in gas and PHEVs are another 3K above Hybrids, but some qualify for tax breaks. 

 

[escape20]

My Escape Hybrid was about 1000 more than the ICE version.

this is my 2nd one since Jan 2020

I like the way the Hybrid drives, and brakes and its much quieter

I also like that i can go about 550 miles on a tank getting about 39 Real MPG not what the computer says

 

[Rangers09]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The biggest issue is that Hybrids are normally about a 3-4K upcharge over an ICE to save maybe $8 bucks a week in gas and PHEVs are another 3K above Hybrids, but some qualify for tax breaks. 

 

 

Again, your hypothetical numbers don't reflect our experience, as an actual PHEV owner.

 

Additional capital cost - virtually zero.

 

Total fuel cost in first 6 months of ownership was only CAN $60 and our gas is way more expensive than the US The PHEV  costs us on average about $10/month in gas.  With DW's 2019 Escape we filled it up about twice per month, at a cost of CAN $170 - $200.

 

Therefore, our PHEV is saving at least $40/week in gas.

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The biggest issue is that Hybrids are normally about a 3-4K upcharge over an ICE to save maybe $8 bucks a week in gas and PHEVs are another 3K above Hybrids, but some qualify for tax breaks. 

 

No, I was talking about places outside the US where gasoline is still over USD$5.00/gallon at the moment,

that's where hybrids will become the replacement for diesels in smaller utilities.

Now, for people stuck in slow speed grind back and forth to work, a more efficient vehicle makes sense

compared to people who’s commute is mostly at constant freeway speed.

[Gurgeh]

10 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The biggest issue is that Hybrids are normally about a 3-4K upcharge over an ICE to save maybe $8 bucks a week in gas and PHEVs are another 3K above Hybrids, but some qualify for tax breaks. 

 

...except when not. I know you said normally, but with the 2024 Nautilus the upcharge is only 1.5K. Plus, most who opt for it, like me, are probably doing so for the enhanced power and performance (as it's the replacement for the former 2.7V6 engine upgrade option), not to save a few bucks a week on gas. If I wanted to save money, I'd go for a used car or something, not a new Lincoln.

https://shop.lincoln.com/build/nautilus/2024/config/exterior/Config[|Lincoln|Nautilus|2024|1|1.|...PUM...BLL.]?gnav=header-vehicles-reveal-fbc-nautilus

Edited December 15, 2023 by Gurgeh

[Rick73]

In case of Maverick, EPA estimate fuel savings for hybrid over standard FWD is $600 per year, or $50 per month.  At an added cost of $1,500, payback period seems pretty fast to me; of course that assumes hybrid meets other buyer needs, otherwise there’s no point comparing.

 

It will be interesting to compare Nautilus EPA ratings as well as real-world driving when available.  It appears EPA data for 2024 is not available yet, but payback may be even faster since base Nautilus is thirstier than Maverick.  Or maybe not, since hybrid powertrains are different and percent improvement may be lower.  We will know soon enough.

 

[silvrsvt]

4 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

...except when not. I know you said normally, but with the 2024 Nautilus the upcharge is only 1.5K. Plus, most who opt for it, like me, are probably doing so for the enhanced power and performance (as it's the replacement for the former 2.7V6 engine upgrade option), not to save a few bucks a week on gas.

 

But a certain someone says that doesn't count...but I agree with you. 

[silvrsvt]

14 hours ago, escape20 said:

My Escape Hybrid was about 1000 more than the ICE version.

The price difference for a 2024 Escape ST-Line is $3K from the Ecoboost to the Hybrid

 

The pricing differential shrinks as the price of the  vehicle goes up (ST-Line Select/Elite and Platinum) but that is because increased standard options, down to $1000 upcharge

 

 

13 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

Again, your hypothetical numbers don't reflect our experience, as an actual PHEV owner.

 

anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence...

 

I'm using information per the calculations that are on fueleconomy.gov. You can go there and plug in your own numbers and see what you get and then share them here if you so inclined. 

 

I spend about $90 bucks a month in gas on Bronco (I have a short commute to work and go in two days a week, plus whatever driving I do on weekends), but I'm not claiming the Bronco is the most efficient thing ever either...but I actually get decent mileage for a Brick with a 300+ HP twin turbo 6...so I'm just an edge case and don't share the info.