Ford Discusses New Affordable EV Platform

[akirby]

Ford has high volume hybrid platforms already in production.  No need to compromise the EV platform.

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

It has been reported that Tesla will use cheaper LFP batteries in new budget-oriented vehicle (Model 2 by whatever name Musk gives it) and speculation has been that it will be limited to 53 kWh capacity, though others have guessed that base vehicles may be lower than that.  Ford could do the same.

 

Anyway, the most efficient BEV in city driving according to EPA is Hyundai Ionic 6 at 153 MPGe, which is 4.5 miles per kWh.  It’s easy to imagine a smaller BEV like proposed Tesla 2 could achieve 5 miles/kWh, which would give ir a range of about 260 miles in city if it had 53 kWh battery.

 

However, at highway speeds (70~75 MPH ) efficiency would likely drop to 4 miles/kWh or less, which reduces range to 210 miles at most.  On an extended road trip if charging between 10 and 80 percent battery capacity, that reduces range to less than 150 miles between stops, or roughly every 2 hours.

 

This all assumes good weather, no headwind, that vehicle weight can be kept low, frontal area is small, and that aero Cd is roughly as low as Tesla Model 3.  It doesn’t take a genius to see that if some or all of these design goals are not met, real-world range will be even lower than 150 miles on the highway.  That’s why I believe affordability (low cost and small battery) essentially limits BEVs to urban areas for now.  When battery energy density doubles, then it will be a different game altogether. 

To be fair, most people don't go much further than 150 miles in one go. Speaking from experience as someone who's gone on road trips with young kids, and older individuals alike. After 150 or 200 miles, everyone is ready to kill each other to get out of the car. 

 

So stopping to charge is something that could make road trips more tolerable for some. With how quickly charging infrastructure is improving, and spreading, it's becoming easier and easier to road trip EVs, even if their range isn't the best.  We're already seeing fast charging capability that can go from a 10 to a 90% state of charge in around 10 or 15 minutes. That's pretty good, and getting better all of the time.

[Harley Lover]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

  We're already seeing fast charging capability that can go from a 10 to a 90% state of charge in around 10 or 15 minutes.

 

Which vehicles can do this?

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Which vehicles can do this?

Basically any of the newer EVs from Kia/Hyundai/Genesis. I do apologize, I was wrong, that's actually the 10-80% not the 10-90% charging time, and it's 18 minutes, not 15. But still impressive regardless, especially considering those battery packs are well over 100 KWH. 

 

Point being, road tripping EVs, and many of the other hurdles standing in the way of mass ev adoption aren't these huge, unsurmountable obstacles. Electric adoption is happening slower than many thought, but it's still happening. Which is why Ford is smart for developing this new platform. It sounds like their larger next gen EVs are stellar. But now that their development is starting to wrap up, it's time to start focusing on a smaller, more affordable offerings. 

[GearheadGrrrl]

5 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

And your also completely wrong-the 8.5 Golf is just a refresh and the the Golf 9 is on its own platform, the SSP with no ICE support

 

I already know that, what's significant is that it's called Golf 9 instead of ID 2 or something like that after VW told us their would be no Golf 9. As for Golf 9 being a dedicated BEV, VW hasn't given us enough detail of the car to tell for sure. 

[Rick73]

Glad to see Farley is prioritizing small and efficient over large electric vehicles, and is targeting Tesla Model 2.  You have to walk before you can run.  Even if smaller BEVs fail to capture a large percentage of market, the probability of success seems far greater than vehicles few buyers can afford.

 

"We're … adjusting our capital, switching focus onto smaller EV products," he told analysts.

 

"All of our EV teams are ruthlessly focused on cost and efficiency in our EV products because the ultimate competition is going to be the affordable Tesla" as well as Chinese manufacturers, Farley added.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-tesla-model-2-elon-musk-jim-farley-electric-vehicles-2024-2

[tbone]

10 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

To be fair, most people don't go much further than 150 miles in one go. Speaking from experience as someone who's gone on road trips with young kids, and older individuals alike. After 150 or 200 miles, everyone is ready to kill each other to get out of the car. 

 

So stopping to charge is something that could make road trips more tolerable for some. With how quickly charging infrastructure is improving, and spreading, it's becoming easier and easier to road trip EVs, even if their range isn't the best.  We're already seeing fast charging capability that can go from a 10 to a 90% state of charge in around 10 or 15 minutes. That's pretty good, and getting better all of the time.

We do multiple road trips per year, well over 300 miles, and those were/are done with children as we continue today. Your description of how a road trip could go would be an absolute no go for my family. Our stops are quick and dirty and back on the road again.  The people that travel in my circles are likely more like me regarding road trips, so I’m skeptical about peoples interest in sitting somewhere and charging for an hour.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, tbone said:

We do multiple road trips per year, well over 300 miles, and those were/are done with children as we continue today. Your description of how a road trip could go would be an absolute no go for my family. Our stops are quick and dirty and back on the road again.  The people that travel in my circles are likely more like me regarding road trips, so I’m skeptical about peoples interest in sitting somewhere and charging for an hour.

If you're traveling with a car full of people, a 15-20 minute stop is pretty normal. That's all it takes to fast charge a battery to close to 100% again. 

[jpd80]

18 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

According to Borg, they already have, this electric platform is called CE1, and will be used to offer things like a EV maverick. It's apparently quite similar to the c2 platform, which as we know, can accommodate hybrid powertrains. 

This.

What Ford has been keeping under its hat has already been leaked last year as the new CE1 architecture,

pits basically a downsized version of the GE2 Next generation platform - the vehicles going int Oakville.

 

So we already know that one of the vehicles planned is BEV Bronco Sport when Escape ends.

A lot of the body structure/tophat architecture is an extension of C2 manufacturing processes 

to keep down costs, every time they try this it’s to better E-Max/Mach E and now MEB Explorer/Capri.

Ford needs to keep trying to get this right or risk being left out in the cold in places like Europe

where BEV compact cars and crossovers are going to be major sellers.

Edited February 8 by jpd80

[akirby]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

If you're traveling with a car full of people, a 15-20 minute stop is pretty normal. That's all it takes to fast charge a battery to close to 100% again. 

That assumes warm weather - cold weather takes longer - and an immediately available charger.

 

And the whole charge while you eat lunch thing only works if there is a fast charger available where you want to eat.  And charger availability will be even worse during big holidays.

 

This is nothing more than rationalization of a significant problem for a large percentage of drivers.  Yes you can make it work but you will have to make compromises on when and where you stop and for how long and be prepared for long waits in some cases.  That’s reality and for a lot of people it’s not worth the risk especially with small kids.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Glad to see Farley is prioritizing small and efficient over large electric vehicles, and is targeting Tesla Model 2.  You have to walk before you can run.  Even if smaller BEVs fail to capture a large percentage of market, the probability of success seems far greater than vehicles few buyers can afford.

Measuring success by sales volume is a great way to chapter 11.  Ask GM.  
 

Success is being profitable - period.  And right now the low cost EV market is ripe for plucking for the first few successful mfrs assuming the technology allows sufficient profit margin at lower prices.  However, these are still going to be primarily 2nd or 3rd vehicles.

 

The people who need cheap EVs the most are also the ones who need public charging - ones who live in apartments or other low income or older housing that can’t charge at home.  This won’t replace ICE se people until fast public charging is as convenient as buying gas.

[AGR]

13 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

I already know that, what's significant is that it's called Golf 9 instead of ID 2 or something like that after VW told us their would be no Golf 9. As for Golf 9 being a dedicated BEV, VW hasn't given us enough detail of the car to tell for sure. 

Nope:

Volkswagen might retire the ID.3 when the next-gen Golf arrives | Top Gear

[GearheadGrrrl]

1 hour ago, AGR said:

Nope:

Volkswagen might retire the ID.3 when the next-gen Golf arrives | Top Gear

Sure has a big grille for an EV and those low door bottom lines don't leave a lot of room for a "skateboard" battery...

[AGR]

37 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Sure has a big grille for an EV and those low door bottom lines don't leave a lot of room for a "skateboard" battery...

 

The pictures are of the CURRENT GOLF. You know, the ICE version... ?

The all electric Golf doesn't come out until 2028. 

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Measuring success by sales volume is a great way to chapter 11.  Ask GM.  
 

Success is being profitable - period.  And right now the low cost EV market is ripe for plucking for the first few successful mfrs assuming the technology allows sufficient profit margin at lower prices.  However, these are still going to be primarily 2nd or 3rd vehicles.

 

The people who need cheap EVs the most are also the ones who need public charging - ones who live in apartments or other low income or older housing that can’t charge at home.  This won’t replace ICE se people until fast public charging is as convenient as buying gas.

I do not disagree on need to be profitable; I just look at issue from different angle.  When GM created Hummer BEV that sold something like 50 units they probably had plans to be profitable too, but it didn’t work out as expected.  Building what people won’t buy also leads to bankruptcy.  Likewise, I’ve seen numbers as high as 97% of Tesla volume are now Models 3 and Y combined, so market for most expensive and larger models which were once profitable has evaporated due to buyers having cheaper options, including from Tesla themselves.

 

Buyers will want what they want, and in free markets success ultimately comes from being able to compete better against other manufacturers that will offer buyers what they are willing to purchase.  Already there is speculation that GM will introduce an affordable Tesla 2 competitor, as will other manufacturers including Ford, so we will have to see how well a cheaper BEV goes over.  BEVs a little smaller than Tesla 3 and Y, about size of Corolla, Civic, Elantra, etc. (and proposed Tesla 2) may be where ability to compete profitably is most crucial.

 

About 2/3 of Americans live in detached houses so access to charging itself won’t limit market that much IMO.  I believe BEV adoption beyond initial few percent of population (many who are very well off) will come from multi-car households that will use them primarily to commute to work, go shopping, etc. with one or two people in car most of the time.  I don’t want to call it a city car, but maybe city-oriented use where charging is essentially all done at home.  IMO it will be many years before Americans buy BEVs with primary goal of taking them on road trips.  Manufacturers should focus on affordable compact urban electric vehicles that families will buy as second or third  car because risks and fear of unknown are much lower.

[silvrsvt]

59 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

I do not disagree on need to be profitable; I just look at issue from different angle.  When GM created Hummer BEV that sold something like 50 units they probably had plans to be profitable too, but it didn’t work out as expected.  Building what people won’t buy also leads to bankruptcy.  Likewise, I’ve seen numbers as high as 97% of Tesla volume are now Models 3 and Y combined, so market for most expensive and larger models which were once profitable has evaporated due to buyers having cheaper options, including from Tesla themselves.

 

Buyers will want what they want, and in free markets success ultimately comes from being able to compete better against other manufacturers that will offer buyers what they are willing to purchase.  Already there is speculation that GM will introduce an affordable Tesla 2 competitor, as will other manufacturers including Ford, so we will have to see how well a cheaper BEV goes over.  BEVs a little smaller than Tesla 3 and Y, about size of Corolla, Civic, Elantra, etc. (and proposed Tesla 2) may be where ability to compete profitably is most crucial.

 

About 2/3 of Americans live in detached houses so access to charging itself won’t limit market that much IMO.  I believe BEV adoption beyond initial few percent of population (many who are very well off) will come from multi-car households that will use them primarily to commute to work, go shopping, etc. with one or two people in car most of the time.  I don’t want to call it a city car, but maybe city-oriented use where charging is essentially all done at home.  IMO it will be many years before Americans buy BEVs with primary goal of taking them on road trips.  Manufacturers should focus on affordable compact urban electric vehicles that families will buy as second or third  car because risks and fear of unknown are much lower.

 

Here is the problem, your talking about a segment of cars that are extremely unpopular in North America unless they are basically being given away. People are spending more for a swiss army knife style car that will last them longer instead of the old model from 30-40 years ago when people got a new car every 5 years or so. 

 

The baseline (IMO) for a small car that will be popular in NA market is roughly something like the size of an Escape in shape and length. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

 

Buyers will want what they want, and in free markets success ultimately comes from being able to compete better against other manufacturers that will offer buyers what they are willing to purchase. 

 

About 2/3 of Americans live in detached houses so access to charging itself won’t limit market that much IMO. 

But you’re assuming buyers want to buy a $25K amorphous blob with 250 mile range as opposed to a Bronco sport EV at $30K that gets 230 miles.  What you want isn’t necessarily what other buyers want.

 

And don’t assume all detached houses can easily support home chargers.   Older houses are 100 amp service or less and can’t support it without major upgrades and some locations don’t have the infrastructure to support wide adoption.

[DeluxeStang]

42 minutes ago, akirby said:

But you’re assuming buyers want to buy a $25K amorphous blob with 250 mile range as opposed to a Bronco sport EV at $30K that gets 230 miles.  What you want isn’t necessarily what other buyers want.

 

And don’t assume all detached houses can easily support home chargers.   Older houses are 100 amp service or less and can’t support it without major upgrades and some locations don’t have the infrastructure to support wide adoption.

The issue as I see it, is people like the bronco sport for it's boxy styling. That boxy styling isn't areodynamic. Which means an EV with that design and a smaller battery pack wouldn't have a very good range. The lack of a good range would be a major turn off for mainstream consumers. 

 

They could in theory redesign the front of the bronco sport, and maverick, to give them lower, smoother front ends while keeping the other body panels the same to keep costs down. But that could look odd. This will be a tricky problem to solve for sure. 

[akirby]

21 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

The issue as I see it, is people like the bronco sport for it's boxy styling. That boxy styling isn't areodynamic. Which means an EV with that design and a smaller battery pack wouldn't have a very good range. The lack of a good range would be a major turn off for mainstream consumers. 

 

They could in theory redesign the front of the bronco sport, and maverick, to give them lower, smoother front ends while keeping the other body panels the same to keep costs down. But that could look odd. This will be a tricky problem to solve for sure. 

The difference in highway mpg between escape and Bronco sport is 12.5%.  So a Bronco Sport EV would get 263 mile range compared to an amorphous blob at 300 or require 12.5% more cells to keep 300 range.  Do you really think folks wouldn’t pay just a little more for the BS version?  Plus a few tweaks without losing the BS styling would get that down to maybe 6%-8% difference.   Folks won’t compromise on styling just to save a few bucks or gain a few miles of range.

[Deanh]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Measuring success by sales volume is a great way to chapter 11.  Ask GM.  
 

Success is being profitable - period.  And right now the low cost EV market is ripe for plucking for the first few successful mfrs assuming the technology allows sufficient profit margin at lower prices.  However, these are still going to be primarily 2nd or 3rd vehicles.

 

The people who need cheap EVs the most are also the ones who need public charging - ones who live in apartments or other low income or older housing that can’t charge at home.  This won’t replace ICE se people until fast public charging is as convenient as buying gas.

raises the question...theres already been "cheap" BEVs...and they were basically sales flops....and then GM and Honda canned their plans for affordable BEVs as well...so Im scratching my head... 

[silvrsvt]

27 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

The issue as I see it, is people like the bronco sport for it's boxy styling. That boxy styling isn't areodynamic. Which means an EV with that design and a smaller battery pack wouldn't have a very good range. The lack of a good range would be a major turn off for mainstream consumers. 

 

They could in theory redesign the front of the bronco sport, and maverick, to give them lower, smoother front ends while keeping the other body panels the same to keep costs down. But that could look odd. This will be a tricky problem to solve for sure. 

 

Aerodynamics is a lot more than just shape alone..the square looking Hyundai Santa Fe gets a CD of .29, the Ford Edge gets .32...

 

 

[silvrsvt]

12 minutes ago, Deanh said:

raises the question...theres already been "cheap" BEVs...and they were basically sales flops....and then GM and Honda canned their plans for affordable BEVs as well...so Im scratching my head... 

 

Cheap EVs like the Leaf where compromised in several ways. What it boils down to is more affordable EVs that are priced like small CUVs in the 30-40K range, Not tiny blobs like a Fiat 500. 

[Deanh]

11 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Cheap EVs like the Leaf where compromised in several ways. What it boils down to is more affordable EVs that are priced like small CUVs in the 30-40K range, Not tiny blobs like a Fiat 500. 

I remember the Fiats...sold like proverbial hotcakes when they hjad a $99 a month lease....I kid you not....theyu were all over the place here....now I never see them at all, wondering if they self destructed...

[DeluxeStang]

17 minutes ago, akirby said:

The difference in highway mpg between escape and Bronco sport is 12.5%.  So a Bronco Sport EV would get 263 mile range compared to an amorphous blob at 300 or require 12.5% more cells to keep 300 range.  Do you really think folks wouldn’t pay just a little more for the BS version?  Plus a few tweaks without losing the BS styling would get that down to maybe 6%-8% difference.   Folks won’t compromise on styling just to save a few bucks or gain a few miles of range.

Here's the thing, I don't know how to answer your question, because I don't know Ford's strategy, none of us do, because they keep changing it. They were focusing on developing larger, more aspirational products. Under that strategy, you're right, people wouldn't mind paying a little bit more money. 

 

But now, they're coming out and saying making small, affordable EVs is their new priority. In which case, every dollar counts if they're trying to be competitive with this upcoming Tesla model 2. So I don't know if Ford's prioritizing price over passion again, or if this is some sort of blended strategy where they're doing both. Perhaps Ford could come out with a rounded off, areo driven small EV to appeal to people who want that sub 30k EV, while also offering a bronco sporty EV with a larger battery pack to appeal to buyers who want a passion product. 

[silvrsvt]

11 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Here's the thing, I don't know how to answer your question, because I don't know Ford's strategy, none of us do, because they keep changing it. They were focusing on developing larger, more aspirational products. Under that strategy, you're right, people wouldn't mind paying a little bit more money. 

 

But now, they're coming out and saying making small, affordable EVs is their new priority. In which case, every dollar counts if they're trying to be competitive with this upcoming Tesla model 2. So I don't know if Ford's prioritizing price over passion again, or if this is some sort of blended strategy where they're doing both. Perhaps Ford could come out with a rounded off, areo driven small EV to appeal to people who want that sub 30k EV, while also offering a bronco sporty EV with a larger battery pack to appeal to buyers who want a passion product. 

 

Maybe you need to take a step back and reevaluate how you process the news that is coming out. 

 

All these "skunkworks cheap platforms" are nothing more than Ford's future EV C products since they decided to move on from sharing MEB with VW. The last "skunkworks" Project was the Maverick, and that was nothing more then an Escape with a pickup bed on it, looking at it dismissively. 

 

The Chinese and Tesla comments are directed at investors and the greater market that Ford is taking them seriously and planning on meeting the challenge...and all this information is getting spun by the media to suit their needs.

 

End of story.