The idiocy of a compact Lincoln

[blazerdude20]

Like the Interactive Vehicle Dynamics Control ( IVDC) active suspension system with Continuously Controlled Damping (CCD)

offered in the S-Max,Galaxy and Mondeo?

 

say that 5 times fast. :shades:

[MKII]

say that 5 times fast. :shades:

 

Explained here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2a2JerrjOI

[silvrsvt]

I know they are going to build the Taurus and the Fusion on CD4, or at least that's the speculation.

 

So a MKS would be stretched MKZ/rebadged Taurus?

 

Why wouldn't it be?

[jpd80]

Better planning of volume products on fewer platforms has to be a major cost improvement for Ford.

Making money off every vehicle sounds like an easy sound bite until the reality hits home and motor companies

realize how disorganized their product planning and supplier network is, vehicles once divorced now become

aligned or merged onto one platform. This is why Ford had to cut production volume back to bare bones

and start again, the only way to make money is to squeeze the maximum out of your resources, build good

products and have the guts to ask more for them...

[syrtran]

Mercury production will be wound down by Q4 of this year, so I can't see much inventory lasting into 2011. I think that the Escape replacement is supposed to start production in late 2011 with wide availability in early 2012, which is why 2011 is the year I'm worried about for dealers.

Exactly. Ford hasn't said when the final order date is, but I'm guessing it's going to be before the start of the 2011 model year, maybe around late September or early October. I'm also going to guess that the Milan will be the first vehicle out-of-stock - possibly before Christmas, followed by the Mariner - which might actually make it into 2011, then the GM and Mountaineer - some of which may be on dealer's lots into February or March.

 

There probably will be some people cross-shopping from the Mountaineer into the MKX, but I don't see a lot of that for the other vehicles. People aren't buying the Milan because they like it better than the MKZ, it's because they can afford it better.

 

It's a lot of showroom traffic to just drop. I believe the Mariner alone has close to 50% the traffic as the entire Lincoln lineup.

 

The 700 or so dealers that don't have a Ford franchise can't sell Fords.

 

 

That number is now under 300.

Over 1400 M-L dealerships also have a Ford franchise as well.

How may of those are actually in the same building, or at least in the general area? We have two L-M dealers here in central NY - Heritage in Syracuse, which - AFAIK - doesn't have a Ford dealership - but sits directly across Genesee Street from Koerner Ford, and Burdick in Cicero (Driver's Village) - whose Ford dealership is some 13 miles away in Central Square (and that one might be owned by the son). Meanwhile, the Volkswagen and Mazda showrooms are right next door.

 

I still think that a good 40-50% of Mercury buyers (even though it's not a lot) will end up buying vehicles other than Ford. Maybe the Mariner -> Escape and Mountaineer -> Explorer situations will do better, but I'm guessing that a good number of people who are looking at the Milan will end up in a Nissan or Honda dealership - or maybe Buick - the Regal is sharp - rather than buy a Fusion. And Grand Marquis buyers will probably end up with an Avalon as there won't be any equivalent Ford product.

 

Alright, here's more "crayola drawings" for Pioneer - the front of the new Lincoln MKG, an Escape/Kuga-based crossover (or at least what I'd do):

 

 

And that's what I think we'll get for 2012 (only with normal rear doors), and not an MKFocus. Like Richard, I still don't see a business case for a Lincoln C sedan, especially since they don't have time to give it a "not-Ford" look. They'd be better off with an MKZ coupe.

Edited June 13, 2010 by syrtran

[nelsonlu]

How may of those are actually in the same building, or at least in the general area? We have two L-M dealers here in central NY - Heritage in Syracuse, which - AFAIK - doesn't have a Ford dealership - but sits directly across Genesee Street from Koerner Ford, and Burdick in Cicero (Driver's Village) - whose Ford dealership is some 13 miles away in Central Square (and that one might be owned by the son). Meanwhile, the Volkswagen and Mazda showrooms are right next door.

 

But if the same dealer has a Ford franchise, why can't it (and I don't see how it won't) simply replace the Mercury vehicles on the floor with Ford ones? It's the same floorspace, and is it really going to be that distracting visually or otherwise to replace Milans/Mariners with Fusions/Escapes?

 

As far as the dealer that doesn't have a Ford franchise, obviously, that dealer will have issues. It will probably have to accept a buyout from Ford, or otherwise take on another brand.

Edited June 13, 2010 by nelsonlu

[2b2]

But if the same dealer has a Ford franchise, why can't it (and I don't see how it won't) simply replace the Mercury vehicles on the floor with Ford ones? It's the same floorspace, and is it really going to be that distracting visually or otherwise to replace Milans/Mariners with Fusions/Escapes?

 

As far as the dealer that doesn't have a Ford franchise, obviously, that dealer will have issues. It will probably have to accept a buyout from Ford, or otherwise take on another brand.

not sure if you had this in mind, Nelson, but

IF a dealer has BOTH Ford and L-M dealerships that are Not side-by-side or merged

What about

bringing ONLY Titanium Fords into the L-M showroom?

 

 

edit-PS

Like the Interactive Vehicle Dynamics Control ( IVDC) active suspension system with Continuously Controlled Damping (CCD)

offered in the S-Max,Galaxy and Mondeo?

Explained here

THANKS a bunch, MKII ! ! !

tho the guy's a twit sort of

I hadn't seen a Mondeo features video before & the IVDC is new to me

Edited June 13, 2010 by 2b2

[rmc523]

I know they are going to build the Taurus and the Fusion on CD4, or at least that's the speculation.

 

So a MKS would be stretched MKZ/rebadged Taurus?

 

Based on platform, yes, an MKS would essentially be an MKZ, but I'm sure they'll continue their separate bodies/interiors, so looks-wise, no, I doubt the MKS would just be a stretched MKZ. And it certainly won't be a rebadged Taurus.

 

And that's what I think we'll get for 2012 (only with normal rear doors), and not an MKFocus. Like Richard, I still don't see a business case for a Lincoln C sedan, especially since they don't have time to give it a "not-Ford" look. They'd be better off with an MKZ coupe.

 

Yes, I suppose I should've moved the rear door handle....

 

Edited June 14, 2010 by rmc523

[nelsonlu]

But if the same dealer has a Ford franchise, why can't it (and I don't see how it won't) simply replace the Mercury vehicles on the floor with Ford ones? It's the same floorspace, and is it really going to be that distracting visually or otherwise to replace Milans/Mariners with Fusions/Escapes?

 

 

not sure if you had this in mind, Nelson, but

IF a dealer has BOTH Ford and L-M dealerships that are Not side-by-side or merged

What about

bringing ONLY Titanium Fords into the L-M showroom?

 

That wasn't what I had in mind, but that sounds like an interesting idea. Or, perhaps, hybrids and EVs.

[nelsonlu]

Based on platform, yes, an MKS would essentially be an MKZ, but I'm sure they'll continue their separate bodies/interiors, so looks-wise, no, I doubt the MKS would just be a stretched MKZ. And it certainly won't be a rebadged Taurus.

 

 

 

Yes, I suppose I should've moved the rear door handle....

 

 

That wasn't what I had in mind, but that sounds like an interesting idea. Or, perhaps, hybrids and EVs.

 

On second thought:

 

1. I think, actually, the Titaniums (in general) would be the wrong vehicles to occupy the same space as the Lincolns. The reason is that the entire reason the last few decades why Mercuries were paired with Lincolns is that you want the Lincoln dealer to have some still-premium-but-lower-priced vehicles available for the people who come in who decide that they can't afford the Lincolns. The Titaniums might not necessarily be any lower-priced than the Lincolns and would effectively be fighting the Lincolns themselves in the same showroom.

 

2. I think what you would want, conventional-vehicle-wise (I'll address the hybrids/EVs below), is to have some Ford vehicles that don't directly occupy the same space as the Lincolns and yet are nice vehicles to look at. Of the sedans/coupes, I'd say top-of-the-line Fiestas and Focuses (until/unless the C-segment Lincoln sedan is ready), Fusion SEL I4s, and Taurus Limiteds. Similar strategy among the SUVs. Perhaps some F-150 Titaniums, and top-of-the-line Mustangs (both GTs and highly-optioned V6s).

 

3. And, again, I'd say hybrids and EVs can feature prominently. Yes, Lincoln will have the MKZ Hybrid available, but I think this is where having a Fusion Hybrid available in the showroom doesn't hurt. Until/unless a Lincoln version of the Kuga is available (which presumably will also have a hybrid/plug-in hybrid available), have the Escape Hybrid. When Transit Connect EV and Focus EV are available, put them in there, too. They'd serve as complimentary to the Lincoln lineup while enhancing, not detracting, from the "Lincon is high tech" image that Ford wants to cultivate.

[rmc523]

At the same time, though, if you do that (put various 'high-tech' Fords in the Lincoln showroom that DON'T have a Lincoln equivalent), it could backfire because that buyer could wonder, "well if Lincoln is 'high-tech,' why don't they have their own version of ____insert vehicle name here____ that Ford has?

[2b2]

Is it the in-BON thing to quote yourself?...

not sure if you had this in mind, Nelson, but

IF a dealer has BOTH Ford and L-M dealerships that are Not side-by-side or merged

What about

bringing ONLY Titanium Fords into the L-M showroom?

the reason I raised that ^^ is the idea that the Titanium Fords are directly replacing a "more-fluid metal" Brand

so the substitution wouldn't raise too many objections - at least from the L-M dealers

 

 

edit

and I'd like to say I'm Very Happy with the phraseology of this thread's title

& have been using the 2nd word for more than just the Lincoln-ette

Edited June 14, 2010 by 2b2

[lfeg]

Why?

 

Lincoln has zero chance of getting 'cred' in Europe, and the most popular luxury cars in emerging markets are the big iron, not the compacts.

 

The MKZ fuel efficiency is already about the same as the compact BMW 3-series. The hybrid will put it in a whole other league, and will probably outsell the Fusion hybrid.

 

Yea, MKS, MKT, etc. (Oh, wait, etc was a Cadillac, gotta get it outa here) have a chance of getting Lincoln "cred" in Europe or Asia? Suer, a large luxury liner such as the M-B limos, Mayback, the Bently, Rolls and big BMWs make a presense, but that is not how they got into the emerging markets.

 

And going with that line of reasoning, Lincoln is forever going to be a North America only product, as I do not see Ford ever wasting the money to have Lincoln chase that crowd. Not that I have a problem with that, but what with the things happening today in the US regarding fuel efficiency mandates and fuels policy, a smaller Lincoln is in the cards, as it will have to be for Lincoln to be able to stand alone into the future.

[MKII]

Listed below are USA Feb>2010 sales numbers for so called entry level luxury competitors.

 

Feb. 2010 Enrty level Lux sales

3-Series 6,817

C-Class 4,245

G 3,956

CTS 2,690

A4 2,660

TL 2,410

ES 2,349

IS 1,991

MKZ 1,751

 

And next level up USA Feb>2101 sales numbers

Genesis 1,762

MKS 1,751

M 817

GS 488

A6 507

S80 662

STS 332

RL 131

E-Class 4,043

5-Series 2,270

 

Lookiing at these numbers I find it hard to understand how any of these companies or why they bother, especially in the full size category chasing this segment of the market.

Only MB and BMW appear to have any business in the luxury car business in USA, if RJ's point of view has merit.

The compact segment or whatever you want to call it appears to at least have some balance of volume for each player yes,no?

 

How many units a year of MKS's, X's, T's or Z's does Lincoln need to move for each vehicle to be able to pay for its existence?

Edited June 14, 2010 by MKII

[mettech]

Yea, MKS, MKT, etc. (Oh, wait, etc was a Cadillac, gotta get it outa here) have a chance of getting Lincoln "cred" in Europe or Asia? Suer, a large luxury liner such as the M-B limos, Mayback, the Bently, Rolls and big BMWs make a presense, but that is not how they got into the emerging markets.

 

And going with that line of reasoning, Lincoln is forever going to be a North America only product, as I do not see Ford ever wasting the money to have Lincoln chase that crowd. Not that I have a problem with that, but what with the things happening today in the US regarding fuel efficiency mandates and fuels policy, a smaller Lincoln is in the cards, as it will have to be for Lincoln to be able to stand alone into the future.

 

 

According to Alan Mulally, Lincoln may be going world wide when the new platforms arrive.

 

CNBC

[nelsonlu]

As an aside, meanwhile, this past week I talked to someone at the "local" (it's actually not the closest dealership to me distance-wise, but it is the one that fits best on my way), fairly high-volume Ford-only dealership where I bought my Fusion Hybrid. He told me that the dealership will not pick up Lincoln as a brand in light of Mercury's demise. (Another salesperson had told me previously that when the local Lincoln-Mercury closed a few years ago (which was the entire reason I switched over to this dealership for service in the first place), this dealership had seriously considered picking up Lincoln but was told that they also had to pick up Mercury, and then decided to pass.) I don't know if they were offered the option to pick up Lincoln this time around, but right now, it looked to me they actually wouldn't have the showroom space for it. (For a high-volume dealership -- and they actually are, as I see cars they sell on the street all the time -- they have, really, a fairly small showroom.) For my mother's next car, unless it's priced out of my range, I'm probably still leaning toward a MKZ Hybrid, so I'd have to do that at an FL(M) dealership.

[RichardJensen]

if RJ's point of view has merit.

The compact segment or whatever you want to call it

 

Here's the point you're missing:

 

THE MKZ IS NOT A COMPACT.

 

BMW & Mercedes, by virtue of in one case, 40 years of reputation building and in the other over a hundred, can get away with selling compact cars for over $30k.

 

In order to get any takers, Lincoln (as well as Lexus and Cadillac) must oppose those COMPACT cars with MIDSIZE entries.

 

Do NOT confuse SIZE and PRICE POINT.

[RichardJensen]

that is not how they got into the emerging markets

That is precisely how they got into the emerging markets.

 

BMW sells over twice as many 7-series in China as they do in any other market.

 

Think about it. Think about the stereotype of emerging markets----go back to the late 19th century in the US, for instance: recall the gap between rich and poor that existed during the Gilded Age.

 

There's a real demand for big luxury in emerging markets. Perhaps with the growth of the professional sector, you may see an increase in demand for entry-level luxury, but the bottom line is that the real money is in full-on unapologetic ostentatious luxury in these emerging markets.

[mercblue281]

That is precisely how they got into the emerging markets.

 

BMW sells over twice as many 7-series in China as they do in any other market.

 

Think about it. Think about the stereotype of emerging markets----go back to the late 19th century in the US, for instance: recall the gap between rich and poor that existed during the Gilded Age.

 

There's a real demand for big luxury in emerging markets. Perhaps with the growth of the professional sector, you may see an increase in demand for entry-level luxury, but the bottom line is that the real money is in full-on unapologetic ostentatious luxury in these emerging markets.

 

Exactly right - Lincoln needs a world renowned flagship before they flood the markets with a pricey focus or fiesta spin off. the jaguar x-type didn't do anything for that brand and a c-class lincoln certainly isn't going to make the globe mad with lincoln envy.

[RichardJensen]

the jaguar x-type didn't do anything for that brand

 

That's a pretty good point. Although they did saddle that car with styling that should've been "EOLed" in the late 90s.

[NickF1011]

the jaguar x-type didn't do anything for that brand

 

The X-type did nothing for that brand more because it was a horrible car than because it was a small car.

[RichardJensen]

The X-type did nothing for that brand more because it was a horrible car than because it was a small car.

 

Was it horrible in terms of driving dynamics? No.

 

Was it horrible in terms of power? No.

 

Was it woefully unreliable? No more so than the 3-Series or C-Class.

 

Was it cramped on the inside? Yes.

 

Was it really expensive for what you got? Yes.

 

---

 

I think that makes it relevant to the debate over a compact Lincoln--the only difference being that any putative compact Lincoln would probably (but not necessarily) have more forward looking styling.

Edited June 14, 2010 by RichardJensen

[NickF1011]

Was it horrible in terms of driving dynamics? No.

 

Was it horrible in terms of power? No.

 

Was it woefully unreliable? No more so than the 3-Series or C-Class.

 

Was it cramped on the inside? Yes.

 

Was it really expensive for what you got? Yes.

 

---

 

I think that makes it relevant to the debate over a compact Lincoln--the only difference being that any putative compact Lincoln would probably (but not necessarily) have more forward looking styling.

 

I don't think it's so much of a stretch for people to consider a $30K C-sized Lincoln if they are already considering $35K+ for a C/D-sized one. :shrug: Just has to have the content and packaging right. The X-Type cost well into the $40's, which was really only justified because it had a leaping cat on the hood. The content wasn't befitting the price.

[MKII]

Here's the point you're missing:

 

THE MKZ IS NOT A COMPACT.

 

BMW & Mercedes, by virtue of in one case, 40 years of reputation building and in the other over a hundred, can get away with selling compact cars for over $30k.

 

In order to get any takers, Lincoln (as well as Lexus and Cadillac) must oppose those COMPACT cars with MIDSIZE entries.

 

Do NOT confuse SIZE and PRICE POINT.

 

Not confused at all and not missing the point.

I am trying to find your point on were the meat of the market is for Lincoln in USA or its competitors..

Sales numbers appear to give the edge to the "entry" level be it small midsize (there I did not say compact) or regular midsize offerings aka 3-series, TL, Infiniti G's,Lexus IS etc.

At least most of the competitors seem to be able to sell somewhat decent numbers in this segment.

The next segment up the sales numbers drop off quite severely

I realize now that I should have never mentioned the word compact and instead and went with the 1st point about the sales of entry level.

Would you consider Lincolns MKZ to be their entry level vehicle?

How many units a year of MKS's, X's, T's or Z's does Lincoln need to move for each vehicle to be able to pay for its existence?

Just trying to make sense of USA luxury market, to get an idea what Lincoln really needs to do, besides the obvious and change customers perceptons.

 

I am neutrel on whether Lincoln should or should not enter into the C segment. I suppose it depends on what type of variant they offer up.

[Edstock]

The X-type did nothing for that brand more because it was a horrible car than because it was a small car.

From the reviews, most thought that it was not horrible. It had quality problems, but IMHO, the EU motor press thought it was a reasonably nice product.

 

But the market didn't like a sideways engine in a Jaguar, and the whispered statement that it came from the Mondeo killed any cachet the car possessed.