GT500 vs Camaro Zl1 in Motor Trend

[FordBuyer]

Interesting point and it makes sense.

 

How often do brakes go out in racing? There's a recent Tube video of a BOSS going off the track due to brake failure, and there was the MT prototype example.

 

In the last club race I just helped grid, we had to be mindful of the pit area also, and every lap a race car or two was in pit area for overheating brakes or tires that lost their grip. And these race cars had the tubes feeding air to the brakes and Pagid brake pads. The President of our club is a top amateur driver that has won national championships in his class, and he says number one issue with most race drivers is that they overbrake. It's better to lift a little earlier, downshift, and as light and short on brakes as possible as opposed to barreling into corner as fast as possible and then standng on your brakes. Go watch any good road race and the fastest drivers are very smooth and light on brakes while others are the opposite. They use up tires and brakes quickly. Jochen Rindt was the best driver I ever saw on a road circuit in person, and he broke later than everyone on course including the other greats like Bruce McLaren, Dan Gurney, and Jim Hall. At Gingerman Raceway recently, a friend and I counted how many race cars broke for the first turn and how many didn't. With 35 cars on track, about 7 didn't brake at all for fairly tight first turn, and rest did some braking to a lot of braking. The 7 who didn't were in the Top 10. In fact, even though they lifted earlier, they still maintained higher speed going through corner as they moved through corner more quickly as the brakers scrubbed off more speed. Most of the race cars that didn't brake were very modified 911's probably pushing 400hp and turning faster laps than a Corvette ZR1 could probably do. A 1:37 at Gingerman is a wickedly fast time. And it takes a balls out race driver who doesn't see his brakes as his security blanket. Lifting and downshifting is 70% of your brakes.

[timmm55]

http://youtu.be/FF-db7bX9LI

 

 

As the credits roll........

 

OK Angus the reviewer/producer picked the Camaro, but it sure sounds like the driver prefers the Mustang. Listen to his comments at the very end "THANK You Mr. Shelby. Great car" "I hope you're driving one in Heaven right now, because I'm in car guy heaven, right here" even the brakes "A little smoke never hurt anybody....oh that's minor......just don't breath it" lol.

 

11:17 Randy Pobst, the driver, said he hated the Camaro's understeer. And "I think that, really, with a brake upgrade the Mustang's gonna be the better car for track work and probably on the street too....it's more balanced" ($300???) brake upgrade http://www.tpsmotors...front-only.html

Edited July 2, 2012 by timmm55

[jpd80]

I think the suspension geometry is fine, JPD, and as for the brakes twmalone, another factor to consider is that the press car(s) that's making the rounds for these tests are pre-production model(s).

Yeah, I got to thinking that particular car probably has seen quite a few hard

development miles too. and may indeed, not be typical of a production GT500.

 

The difference between the two cars could be as simple as different brake biasing but that's just a guess on my part.

Edited July 2, 2012 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

with its Corvette DNA

But does it really have Corvette DNA?

 

AFAIK, the electronic damper kit is modified from the CTS-V and the suspension is Holden designed.

 

Another factor, possibly, is that you can't drive the 'Stang like the Camaro and get similar results.

 

I do think that--in the grand Ford tradition of serving up falling-apart prototypes to magazines and just generally not giving a crap about their press fleet--this GT-500 is not exactly a representative sample.

Edited July 2, 2012 by RichardJensen

[silvrsvt]

I do think that--in the grand Ford tradition of serving up falling-apart prototypes to magazines and just generally not giving a crap about their press fleet--this GT-500 is not exactly a representative sample.

 

Why does Ford do this? All it does is hurt its reputation...

[RichardJensen]

I think it's a combination of the press fleet being a low priority and a corporate culture that just doesn't think much of the automotive press.

 

If you're Ford, and you're looking at the way the Fusion, Edge, Escape & Focus drove market share gains from '07-'11, despite persistent 'meh' and 'blecch' from the press, why would you make them a priority? And, in fact, why wouldn't a sort of 'Screw you' attitude start to creep in?

[akirby]

If you're Ford, and you're looking at the way the Fusion, Edge, Escape & Focus drove market share gains from '07-'11, despite persistent 'meh' and 'blecch' from the press, why would you make them a priority?

 

This. ^^^

 

As much as we like to fawn over these comparisons, the only publication that has much effect on what the public buys is Consumer Reports and then it's only the repair history and only if it's really bad.

[RichardJensen]

I should clarify that if Ford has a 'Screw 'em' attitude toward the mainstream auto press, that's not good. It's understandable, but not really productive.

 

Another factor:

 

I think it was Inside Line (I think), but I know some outlet dropped their press fleet Edge into L at highway speed to see what would happen. Apparently the vehicle redlined, but did not drop into first gear.

 

And if that's what the press is doing to press fleet vehicles, well, I'm hard put to justify giving them good equipment.

[Hugh]

I couldn't see in the article if the Shelby was pre-production. I assume production hasn't started yet. I'm not surprised press fleet vechicles will get abused and not reported. Nonetheless, maybe Ford should write off the production vehicles and see where it goes.

[Anthony]

As much as the automotive press is abhorred, it is still a form of marketing that Ford should take somewhat seriously (whether it is better maintenance of their press fleet or just not letting press cars that are not quite fully baked yet out the door). The gains they've had in the past 5 years have been impressive, but who is to say they would not have been better without lines in car rags about brakes overheating or parts falling off cars?

 

Regardless, as much as the Camaro looks like a stillborn hippopotamus, I am surprised it performed as well as it did.

[jpd80]

So a possibly slightly off song GT500 gets pipped by the ZL1,that makes it sound like Ford is foxing or sandbagging.

[RichardJensen]

Doesn't seem to have been any problem with the engine, at least.

[FPVFalcom]

So a possibly slightly off song GT500 gets pipped by the ZL1,that makes it sound like Ford is foxing or sandbagging.

 

Make all the excuses you want to justify the results, the eight grand more expensive Mustang was beaten by the heavier, less expensive Camaro.

 

For all of the hype Ford doled out when this car was released, the results are disappointing.

 

Ford isn't foxing or sandbagging. Their best effort just wasn't as good as GMs. But that's ok because the other Mustang models are a bit better than the Camaro.

 

Neither company is going to hurt because of these test results of the two insane versions of the cars.

[TomServo92]

Make all the excuses you want to justify the results, the eight grand more expensive Mustang was beaten by the heavier, less expensive Camaro.

 

For all of the hype Ford doled out when this car was released, the results are disappointing.

 

Ford isn't foxing or sandbagging. Their best effort just wasn't as good as GMs. But that's ok because the other Mustang models are a bit better than the Camaro.

 

Neither company is going to hurt because of these test results of the two insane versions of the cars.

 

The other way to look at this is that the Camaro with its newer platform and more technically advanced suspension barely beat a GT500 riding on an 8 year old platform.

 

From a Ford fan perspective, I like to think that the glass is half full.

[RichardJensen]

Ford isn't foxing or sandbagging.

And you can state this for a fact? AFAIK, it's been the same GT 500 & Camaro in all these tests, not multiple cars:

 

Motor Trend:

 

Edmunds:

 

Automobile Magazine:

 

So, I'm sorry, but I do not consider this to be conclusive. Especially when you consider that the GT500 isn't even in production yet.

 

Edit: The Automobile GT500 has a different license plate number. However, neither vehicle is a production model (and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the same ZL1).

Edited July 3, 2012 by RichardJensen

[Extreme4x4]

I sure wish people would check things out, instead of buying what the magazine is selling.

 

On June 30th, at Homestead, in Florida a privately owned 2013 GT500 and a privately owned ZL1 took to the road course. Both owners and drivers are very experienced road course drivers. Both were running stock tires. GT500 had higher temp brake fluid, as it is road raced ALOT (one of the first things you need to do, due to the higher boiling point, and the thing that is necessary in the ZL1 to preserve the warranty). It also had a e-mail tune (good for about 25-30rwhp). The ZL1 had a pulley, a tune, and a dual fan heat exchanger with a higher capacity tank. It also had better brake fluid.

 

End result. The GT500 blew by the ZL1 in 2 20 minute sessions due to massive heatsoak on the side of the ZL1. Temps were warm, and it was humid. GM intercooler is supposed to be a joke, and the ZL1 owner will be looking at other ways to cut heatsoak. GT500 had ZERO fade with the brakes (the same as always), and suffered from next to ZERO heatsoak. The vids for both 20 minute sessions are on youtube.

 

As per the GT500 owner, Randy Pobst is an excellent driver who he has competed with in the past. He, and Motortrend will beat the living **** out of the cars they got. The only way they had the brake problems they had, is due to improper prep of a well flogged press car. He purposely set out to make the GT500's brake fade, and he could not do it.

 

If the braking was the issue that MT made it out to be, all of the tests would have experienced problems........................ but they did not.

 

Randy far preferred the GT500 on the road course, yet, the ZL1 won because it is more comfy.

 

As for the supposed $8000 difference. With the added Performance Pack, and Track Pack, the GT500 is about $5000 more than the ZL1. There is no amount of money that you can give GM to get Recaro's in your ZL1................... or navigation (until August)................ or a glass roof. To use any mix of those additional options, to bash the GT500 is assinine. However, since you want apples to apples, please tell me how much the option is for the fully forged rotating assembly, and 662 hp is for the ZL1. While you are at it, also factor in the costs to fix their ridiculous heat exchanger and intercooler.

 

The real world is not a magazine.............................. and a magazine is not the real world. As a GT500 blows past a ZL1 on the strip, street, or road course, I guess the ZL1 driver can throw a magazine at him................ while yelling about how comfy he is.

[Ron W.]

MT just announced the Camaro over the GT500 based on their subjective view.

 

The real world is not a magazine...

 

:shades:

Edited July 3, 2012 by Ron W.

[jpd80]

And WTF is a subjective view?

 

 

An opinion based on a certain frame of reference that Chevrolet must always win...

Edited July 3, 2012 by jpd80

[traxiii]

Looks to me like the main difference is the lack of brake cooling ducts on the GT500, probably left off in order to hit 200mph. It stopped better than the chevy with cool brakes, add a duct kit and it probably continues to do so. I'm pretty sure the Boss brake duct kit would bolt right on, and maybe it's only good for 190mph now, still faster than the wanna-be.

[therealmrmustang]

I sure wish people would check things out, instead of buying what the magazine is selling.

 

On June 30th, at Homestead, in Florida a privately owned 2013 GT500 and a privately owned ZL1 took to the road course. Both owners and drivers are very experienced road course drivers. Both were running stock tires. GT500 had higher temp brake fluid, as it is road raced ALOT (one of the first things you need to do, due to the higher boiling point, and the thing that is necessary in the ZL1 to preserve the warranty). It also had a e-mail tune (good for about 25-30rwhp). The ZL1 had a pulley, a tune, and a dual fan heat exchanger with a higher capacity tank. It also had better brake fluid.

 

End result. The GT500 blew by the ZL1 in 2 20 minute sessions due to massive heatsoak on the side of the ZL1. Temps were warm, and it was humid. GM intercooler is supposed to be a joke, and the ZL1 owner will be looking at other ways to cut heatsoak. GT500 had ZERO fade with the brakes (the same as always), and suffered from next to ZERO heatsoak. The vids for both 20 minute sessions are on youtube.

 

As per the GT500 owner, Randy Pobst is an excellent driver who he has competed with in the past. He, and Motortrend will beat the living **** out of the cars they got. The only way they had the brake problems they had, is due to improper prep of a well flogged press car. He purposely set out to make the GT500's brake fade, and he could not do it.

 

If the braking was the issue that MT made it out to be, all of the tests would have experienced problems........................ but they did not.

 

Randy far preferred the GT500 on the road course, yet, the ZL1 won because it is more comfy.

 

As for the supposed $8000 difference. With the added Performance Pack, and Track Pack, the GT500 is about $5000 more than the ZL1. There is no amount of money that you can give GM to get Recaro's in your ZL1................... or navigation (until August)................ or a glass roof. To use any mix of those additional options, to bash the GT500 is assinine. However, since you want apples to apples, please tell me how much the option is for the fully forged rotating assembly, and 662 hp is for the ZL1. While you are at it, also factor in the costs to fix their ridiculous heat exchanger and intercooler.

 

The real world is not a magazine.............................. and a magazine is not the real world. As a GT500 blows past a ZL1 on the strip, street, or road course, I guess the ZL1 driver can throw a magazine at him................ while yelling about how comfy he is.

 

 

Exactly. Well stated. :reading:

[Deanh]

I sure wish people would check things out, instead of buying what the magazine is selling.

 

On June 30th, at Homestead, in Florida a privately owned 2013 GT500 and a privately owned ZL1 took to the road course. Both owners and drivers are very experienced road course drivers. Both were running stock tires. GT500 had higher temp brake fluid, as it is road raced ALOT (one of the first things you need to do, due to the higher boiling point, and the thing that is necessary in the ZL1 to preserve the warranty). It also had a e-mail tune (good for about 25-30rwhp). The ZL1 had a pulley, a tune, and a dual fan heat exchanger with a higher capacity tank. It also had better brake fluid.

 

End result. The GT500 blew by the ZL1 in 2 20 minute sessions due to massive heatsoak on the side of the ZL1. Temps were warm, and it was humid. GM intercooler is supposed to be a joke, and the ZL1 owner will be looking at other ways to cut heatsoak. GT500 had ZERO fade with the brakes (the same as always), and suffered from next to ZERO heatsoak. The vids for both 20 minute sessions are on youtube.

 

As per the GT500 owner, Randy Pobst is an excellent driver who he has competed with in the past. He, and Motortrend will beat the living **** out of the cars they got. The only way they had the brake problems they had, is due to improper prep of a well flogged press car. He purposely set out to make the GT500's brake fade, and he could not do it.

 

If the braking was the issue that MT made it out to be, all of the tests would have experienced problems........................ but they did not.

 

Randy far preferred the GT500 on the road course, yet, the ZL1 won because it is more comfy.

 

As for the supposed $8000 difference. With the added Performance Pack, and Track Pack, the GT500 is about $5000 more than the ZL1. There is no amount of money that you can give GM to get Recaro's in your ZL1................... or navigation (until August)................ or a glass roof. To use any mix of those additional options, to bash the GT500 is assinine. However, since you want apples to apples, please tell me how much the option is for the fully forged rotating assembly, and 662 hp is for the ZL1. While you are at it, also factor in the costs to fix their ridiculous heat exchanger and intercooler.

 

The real world is not a magazine.............................. and a magazine is not the real world. As a GT500 blows past a ZL1 on the strip, street, or road course, I guess the ZL1 driver can throw a magazine at him................ while yelling about how comfy he is.

what a great post....applause Gloria.

[Deanh]

Make all the excuses you want to justify the results, the eight grand more expensive Mustang was beaten by the heavier, less expensive Camaro.

 

For all of the hype Ford doled out when this car was released, the results are disappointing.

 

Ford isn't foxing or sandbagging. Their best effort just wasn't as good as GMs. But that's ok because the other Mustang models are a bit better than the Camaro.

 

Neither company is going to hurt because of these test results of the two insane versions of the cars.

seriously will you get over the 8k difference....or would you like a list to write down of options such as "recaros".....just ballpark two of those with airbags and all....damn near half of it i would say....

[Extreme4x4]

I have been into handling for a long time.

 

A question to answer: If the ZL1 is truly the road racing car that they are marketing it as, why does it not come with DOT4 or any other higher temp brake fluid?? Read the ZL1 owners manual, and it gives you a grocery list of things you need to do, when competing with your car, to maintain your warranty. Changing the brake fluid is one of those items.

 

ANYONE who isn't a magazine racer, and actually tracks their cars, knows that you put higher temp brake fluid in a vehicle......................... ANY vehicle. It is just a given that this is what you do. Why?? Because you don't want to get up close and personal with the wall, that's why. I would absolutally guarantee that if you ran a ZL1 with stock brake fluid, in a couple of 20 minute sessions, you would also see massive brake fade. Rubber brake lines, and stock fluid guarantee it. As a matter of fact, most road racers also change all of their brake lines to steel.

 

So basically, what we have learned is, if you want to actually road race your GT500 and or ZL1, you will change your brake fluid. This is a cheap thing to do, and doesn't take much time. When you do so, your stock braking system will work great. I would like to see a completely stock ZL1 flogged for a couple of 20 minute sessions, to see if there is still heatsoak with the stock boost level. If so, then your "track ready" ZL1 is much further from track ready, than any 2013 GT500.

[Deanh]

I have been into handling for a long time.

 

A question to answer: If the ZL1 is truly the road racing car that they are marketing it as, why does it not come with DOT4 or any other higher temp brake fluid?? Read the ZL1 owners manual, and it gives you a grocery list of things you need to do, when competing with your car, to maintain your warranty. Changing the brake fluid is one of those items.

 

ANYONE who isn't a magazine racer, and actually tracks their cars, knows that you put higher temp brake fluid in a vehicle......................... ANY vehicle. It is just a given that this is what you do. Why?? Because you don't want to get up close and personal with the wall, that's why. I would absolutally guarantee that if you ran a ZL1 with stock brake fluid, in a couple of 20 minute sessions, you would also see massive brake fade. Rubber brake lines, and stock fluid guarantee it. As a matter of fact, most road racers also change all of their brake lines to steel.

 

So basically, what we have learned is, if you want to actually road race your GT500 and or ZL1, you will change your brake fluid. This is a cheap thing to do, and doesn't take much time. When you do so, your stock braking system will work great. I would like to see a completely stock ZL1 flogged for a couple of 20 minute sessions, to see if there is still heatsoak with the stock boost level. If so, then your "track ready" ZL1 is much further from track ready, than any 2013 GT500.

question, because I DONT know....why dont manufacturers supply the vehicles from the get go with the upgraded Brake Fluid?.....( does it have to reach a minimum temperate to operate correctly that is only obtained through regular street driving? )

[Versa-Tech]

Looks to me like the main difference is the lack of brake cooling ducts on the GT500, probably left off in order to hit 200mph. It stopped better than the chevy with cool brakes, add a duct kit and it probably continues to do so. I'm pretty sure the Boss brake duct kit would bolt right on, and maybe it's only good for 190mph now, still faster than the wanna-be.

Well designed brake ducts couldn't produce anywhere near that level of drag, perhaps enough to cost 3-5mph on the top end at most. That said, I think the lack of magnetorheological dampers on the GT500 along with the extra 100+ hp are the primary culprits of the brake fade. The Camaro is not only braking from a lower speed, but also has the advantage of an electronic suspension that can more efficiently spread the braking force across the rotors, especially when trail braking.

 

Why didn't Ford include them? Because they were more worried about building a complete car, with an interior that feels like it belongs in a car north of 60K. Let's not even go into the fit and finish of the body, or the lack of a suitable gearbox on the ZL1.

 

When it really comes down to it, anyone looking to track a GT500 can afford to upgrade to ceramic brakes for less than 6K. By the time you've upgraded the engine, transmission, seats, and aero on the camaro, you've spent well over 10K... and you're still likely to miss your apex, because you still won't be able to see anything out of the pillbox style windows.