Ford hybrids fall short of fuel economy claims - CR.

[rscalzo]

We bought two 2011 Escape Hybrids for administrator's use. The mileage was not what was expected. But beyond that , we are happy with them.

[Extreme4x4]

As mileage gets higher and higher, the ability of the average person to achieve it gets less and less.

 

This type of story will continue to happen until there is another overhaul of the EPA testing.

 

Basically, they need to floor everything constantly, and put on the sticker that this is the least you could possibly get.................... but your mileage will definitally be higher to much higher.

 

I think I am getting close to putting FB aka Debby Downer on ignore, and I have NEVER done this. This is a real happy time in my home, since my husband is starting his dream job on the 17th, and his constant inane negativity is really a downer.

[FordBuyer]

As mileage gets higher and higher, the ability of the average person to achieve it gets less and less.

 

This type of story will continue to happen until there is another overhaul of the EPA testing.

 

Basically, they need to floor everything constantly, and put on the sticker that this is the least you could possibly get.................... but your mileage will definitally be higher to much higher.

 

I think I am getting close to putting FB aka Debby Downer on ignore, and I have NEVER done this. This is a real happy time in my home, since my husband is starting his dream job on the 17th, and his constant inane negativity is really a downer.

 

Please you and Jensen put me on ignore. I'm equally tired of you two responding to me in any way. Don't like what I post..don't read it. I hate reading what you and Jensen post just as much as you hate mine.

[Noah Harbinger]

I don't care about proprietary, non-reproducable measurements by outside sources. The EPA test is a test designed to eliminate inconsistencies, so that the only difference between two tests is the vehicle being tested. That makes it a gold standard for comparing vehicles to one another, and that is why it is important. Not because you can expect the same real-world results. The real world has too many variables that can confound your attempts to test things. And I just don't trust Consumer Reports nearly as much as the EPA to control those variables - especially when they refuse to publish the precise details of their testing protocol.

 

I do care about public perception, though, and I hope something can be done to demonstrate good faith on Ford's part: Submit to independent verification, publicly engage CR to see why their results differ so much from the EPA rating. I don't care if it increases CR's publicity - maintaining Ford's favorable public opinion is more important than trashing CR's.

 

As an aside, rather than randomly testing new vehicles, the EPA should always verify and independently test the top vehicles in each category. Just sayin', if you want the bragging rights, you should earn them.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Noah Harbinger

[jpd80]

Please you and Jensen put me on ignore. I'm equally tired of you two responding to me in any way. Don't like what I post..don't read it. I hate reading what you and Jensen post just as much as you hate mine.

To be honest FB, there's nothing to be gained from any of this, it's just like the negative stuff thrown at Volt when the batteries are run down.

Haters are gonna hate, I think Ford should just get out there and advertise the pants off C-Max and have the EPA verify the 47 mpg claim.

The only thing Ford can do in this instance is have the EPA review and if necessary re run the tests and verify the results.

Edited December 7, 2012 by jpd80

[Hoser768]

Major story? What national press?

 

Front page of cnn.com "Ford hybrids don't live up to MPG hype"

 

I agree with different tests yielding different results. With my type of travel and driving habits, I meet or beat the EPA estimates on everything I have consistently. Of course I could come up with situations where I could change the driving style, speeds, fuel, and terrain to get below that. CR did it too. Whoop-de-friggin-doo.

 

Of course no one is getting the claimed mileage out of it....

 

just over 100 miles and every trip above 46 mpg, all in town What I can't figure is what to do with the gas coming out of the tank hahahahah

 

reached 70.1 on a trip today

 

almost every trip I am getting over 48 :hyper:

[mettech]

I would find interesting the % of people that get the EPA MPG in Ford's new hybrids.

 

If a significant mean obtains the listed MPG.. then the CR article has crow to eat.

 

If however, less than 5% of the owners avg the EPA MPG, then the testing needs to be corrected.

 

Does anyone think that CR test Ford, Toyota cars in a different manner in order to hurt Ford?

[rkisler]

I would find interesting the % of people that get the EPA MPG in Ford's new hybrids.

 

If a significant mean obtains the listed MPG.. then the CR article has crow to eat.

 

If however, less than 5% of the owners avg the EPA MPG, then the testing needs to be corrected.

 

Does anyone think that CR test Ford, Toyota cars in a different manner in order to hurt Ford?

 

Because the EPA and CR tests are different, even if Ford's hybrids are "recertified" or "audited" by the EPA test and "cleared", that still doesn't mean that there would be any change in results or opinion on the part of CR.

 

There is no reliable and statistically valid means of reporting real world fuel economy. Sure, there are a couple of sites like the EPA site, Fuelly, and enthusiast sites where drivers can self-report. But do you really trust the reporting? For instance, given the relative fanaticism of VW diesel owners, do you think they are accurately reporting their mileage? Or might some of them be so excited and sure of what they view as their own intelligence for choosing a VW that they "overestimate" their mileage? Same for Prius owners. And they number and type of people who are reporting are likely not representative of the population of the buyers.

 

This is a tough one.

 

I do not believe that CR slants their fuel economy test in any particular direction by manufacturer. Although CR say their tests are better than EPA because they are on the road rather than in the lab, they are subject to corrections due to weather conditions and such and in my view are less repeatable. Since CR won't tell anyone what their test cycles are, there is absolutely no way manufacturers can try to duplicate the test to find out what's going on.

 

In CR's defense (which I don't ordinarily do), if I were CR I also wouldn't want the manufacturers to know my test cycle. Why? Because the EPA cycle is well known and "driven" on the dyno by very experienced technicians who are wringing out the best mileage possible while staying on the path. So if manufacturers knew CR's test cycle, they might recalibrate to the test. In a way, similar to trying to ace both the federal and IIHS crash tests.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Austin

[akirby]

The biggest issue I see for Ford is that they allow optional wheels and tires that are almost guaranteed to lower fuel economy compared to the standard LRR tires but there is no mention of that anywhere. So even if everything is above board a buyer may be giving themselves a 2-4 mpg penalty by choosing an appearance package without any knowledge that they're hurting their fuel mileage. I realize this is just a side effect of how the EPA tests are performed and reported, but I think Ford owes the customer some type of warning that their fuel mileage could be affected.

 

Throw in ethanol fuel (the EPA does not use E-10) plus other winter blends and running the heater in winter and it's easy to see how a hybrid mpg could drop drastically in a real world test compared to the EPA tests.

 

Had the Fusion hybrid debuted in the summer time without optional wheels I think this would have been a different story.

 

And if the EPA retests and there is a problem then I'll be the first to admonish Ford. But I'm not there yet.

[03 LS]

This has happened before.

The 1st gen Prius, under old EPA methods, was certified at 60mpg (or high 50s, don't remember now), and most of drivers got nowhere near that. Both Toyota and EPA looked into this matter and there was no "cheating" discovered. But from PR point of view, Toyota asked EPA if they could lower the EPA mpg numbers on Prius' window stickers, but EPA refused and let the high mpg figures stand.

The only thing Toyota could do, IIRC, was they never used the high EPA number in their ads after that.

 

For the record, I don't think Ford "cheated" either. But once the story is out there, it's really hard to win PR battle.

 

[silvrsvt]

This has happened before.

The 1st gen Prius, under old EPA methods, was certified at 60mpg (or high 50s, don't remember now), and most of drivers got nowhere near that. Both Toyota and EPA looked into this matter and there was no "cheating" discovered. But from PR point of view, Toyota asked EPA if they could lower the EPA mpg numbers on Prius' window stickers, but EPA refused and let the high mpg figures stand.

The only thing Toyota could do, IIRC, was they never used the high EPA number in their ads after that.

 

For the record, I don't think Ford "cheated" either. But once the story is out there, it's really hard to win PR battle.

 

But the really high claims of the Prius where one of the primary reasons the EPA testing methods where changed.

 

I think issue with this are peoples expectations...no car gets good gas mileage at first..heck I was getting 16 MPG out of my Mustang when I first got it, partly due to me hot dogging it and partly because it wasn't broken in. By the time I put a couple thousand miles on it, I was getting slightly better numbers then the EPA MPG ratings. I avg about 20 MPG in stop and go traffic, but I use my cruise control when ever I can..and thats a big help with the MPGs

 

My bro in law has a first gen Fusion Hybrid and hes getting 39 MPG out of it with his commute....

Edited December 7, 2012 by silvrsvt

[RichardJensen]

In CR's defense (which I don't ordinarily do), if I were CR I also wouldn't want the manufacturers to know my test cycle. Why? Because the EPA cycle is well known and "driven" on the dyno by very experienced technicians who are wringing out the best mileage possible while staying on the path. So if manufacturers knew CR's test cycle, they might recalibrate to the test. In a way, similar to trying to ace both the federal and IIHS crash tests.

 

And, see, this is where CR is more about protecting their brand and their platform than they are concerned about customers.

 

See, if CR's test regimen is more representative of real world driving, then it should follow that a vehicle calibrated to ace that test should deliver better real world mileage, right? Which is better for consumers, right? So they should *want* manufacturers to do well at it.

 

 

But that would require them to want manufacturers to do well. They don't.

[Deanh]

Ford can't win a PR fight with CR, because that's exactly what CR wants.

 

 

See, CR has cleverly set the terms of the debate by using their proprietary oh-so-secret "real world" test. Ford can't prove that CR is lying about the results of their proprietary hush-hush-would-we-lie-to-you testing, so all they would be doing is giving CR more spotlight, which is what they want in the first place.

I see an oppurtunity...."In light of a certain Magazine calling us out, we are now going to prove them wrong, and we invited one of their writers along for the ride to witness the fact...."...I dont know Richard, but SOMEONE has to stop this witch-hunt, I also blame Ford to an extent in regards to the MFT, why they wouldnt send someone to explain a system with a relatively steep learning curve, is beyond me...maybe they like the negativity.....

[RichardJensen]

CR is fighting for relevance, therefore what's going to stop it is what they're fighting in the first place: declining weight in the marketplace.

[rtshinn]

There is definitely a learing curve in getting the most mpg. When I first got my Camry Hybrid (2007) my eyes were glued to the mpg display. I learned to accelerate at a certain speed then glide whenever possible. I used to get about 40 mpg on a trip. After some years I quit looking at the gauge and didn't care as much. Too much work. Typically I would get 32-35 combined, except in the winter. In the winter short trips are a killer, and I could go down to 28-30.

 

Robert

[Deanh]

CR is fighting for relevance, therefore what's going to stop it is what they're fighting in the first place: declining weight in the marketplace.

agreed, but one thing they sure are good at is stirring up the mud without repurcussions....Americans LOVE gossip, immuendo and controversy....

[rkisler]

And, see, this is where CR is more about protecting their brand and their platform than they are concerned about customers.

 

See, if CR's test regimen is more representative of real world driving, then it should follow that a vehicle calibrated to ace that test should deliver better real world mileage, right? Which is better for consumers, right? So they should *want* manufacturers to do well at it.

 

 

But that would require them to want manufacturers to do well. They don't.

 

Understand. I have had problems with CR's attitude. At one time I had an on-line subscription and I posted to try to get them to explain exactly how they tested for fuel economy. Which they didn't do, of course. Their response to me had a lot of generalities, and they said that their city driving test was "very rough." I replied that as a reader I wasn't interested in "very rough" but "very representative." Never got another reply.

[rkisler]

I did want to mention a few technical bits about hybrids; everything I say should be considered AFAIK and I stand to be corrected.

 

1. Ford and Toyota use a power split architecture. In this arrangement, the drive is always through the larger motor/generator (MG2). There is a smaller MG1 that also can spin both forward and reverse. What's really happening is the electrical charging resistance is what's responsible for changing the final drive ratio. I've posted this before, but it's always fun to look at:

 

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

 

2. The Toyota and original Ford transmission were designed by Aisan Warner. Ford has now gone to an in-house design. Although some of the operating parameters are different (like size of motor and maximum top speed), the basic operating is the same.

 

3. While the power split transmission works well around town, it can be a bit of a drag (pun intended) on the highway. That's because if you are above the speed at which the vehicle can operate on electric only, you are still spinning MG1 and MG2. When the battery is full up. you are basically generating electricity and then reusing it at the same time. So there are losses on MG1 and MG2.

 

4. So, for a person like me who takes a lot of around town trips puncuated by numerous very long (700-1200+ miles) high speed (75-80 mph) interestate trips, the power split is a mixed bag. Where I might like to be on electric only, for instance, after going over the Appalachians, the car still has to stay in ICE mode because I am exceeding the hybrids electric-only capability. So at those speeds, you're better off with either a more capable BEV/EREV (like Volt), or simply an ICE (like 1.6l EB or perhaps a diesel).

 

5. Some manufacturers (GM Volt, Honda, VW, Hyundai/Kia) are now clutching their drivetrains to allow a higher variety of combinations including ICE-only operation. This type of system works well in high-speed environments, and can still provide EV only operation at some speeds, and hybrid operation at other speeds (some are better than others).

 

6. I know Ford looked long and hard before deciding to build another power split, but I'm really wondering if they should have gone to a clutched system. The new Accord Hybrid system appears to be very versatile, and I'm waiting to see how the new Accord HEV/PHEV perform with CR.

 

 

Another point. Many people (most?) equate the EPA highway mileage to what they would expect with steady state cruise at, say 65-70 mph. But that's not what the test cycle is (you can look on EPA's site).; it has speed changes So for ICE's I can consistently outdo EPA's highway numbers at 75-80 mph on the interstate. But with the bits I mentioned above, if you travel at that speed with a hybrid, you aren't getting any of the benefit, and are likely to be way under the EPA highway estimate.

[akirby]

5. Some manufacturers (GM Volt, Honda, VW, Hyundai/Kia) are now clutching their drivetrains

 

Hit Like if you read this and immediately got a mental picture of an engineer hugging an engine and transmission.

[jpd80]

I did want to mention a few technical bits about hybrids; everything I say should be considered AFAIK and I stand to be corrected.

 

1. Ford and Toyota use a power split architecture. In this arrangement, the drive is always through the larger motor/generator (MG2). There is a smaller MG1 that also can spin both forward and reverse. What's really happening is the electrical charging resistance is what's responsible for changing the final drive ratio. I've posted this before, but it's always fun to look at:

 

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

 

2. The Toyota and original Ford transmission were designed by Aisan Warner. Ford has now gone to an in-house design. Although some of the operating parameters are different (like size of motor and maximum top speed), the basic operating is the same.

 

3. While the power split transmission works well around town, it can be a bit of a drag (pun intended) on the highway. That's because if you are above the speed at which the vehicle can operate on electric only, you are still spinning MG1 and MG2. When the battery is full up. you are basically generating electricity and then reusing it at the same time. So there are losses on MG1 and MG2.

 

4. So, for a person like me who takes a lot of around town trips puncuated by numerous very long (700-1200+ miles) high speed (75-80 mph) interestate trips, the power split is a mixed bag. Where I might like to be on electric only, for instance, after going over the Appalachians, the car still has to stay in ICE mode because I am exceeding the hybrids electric-only capability. So at those speeds, you're better off with either a more capable BEV/EREV (like Volt), or simply an ICE (like 1.6l EB or perhaps a diesel).

 

5. Some manufacturers (GM Volt, Honda, VW, Hyundai/Kia) are now clutching their drivetrains to allow a higher variety of combinations including ICE-only operation. This type of system works well in high-speed environments, and can still provide EV only operation at some speeds, and hybrid operation at other speeds (some are better than others).

 

6. I know Ford looked long and hard before deciding to build another power split, but I'm really wondering if they should have gone to a clutched system. The new Accord Hybrid system appears to be very versatile, and I'm waiting to see how the new Accord HEV/PHEV perform with CR.

 

 

Another point. Many people (most?) equate the EPA highway mileage to what they would expect with steady state cruise at, say 65-70 mph. But that's not what the test cycle is (you can look on EPA's site).; it has speed changes So for ICE's I can consistently outdo EPA's highway numbers at 75-80 mph on the interstate. But with the bits I mentioned above, if you travel at that speed with a hybrid, you aren't getting any of the benefit, and are likely to be way under the EPA highway estimate.

Great Post as usual Austin,

That kind of reminds me of the Prius Vs BMW challenge the UK Top Gear team did a few years back. They showed that a Prius

driven hard around a track actually uses more fuel than a conventional 3 series following it. It sounds like people are seeing

the EPA numbers of 47 mpg / 47 mpg as an explicit guarantee that no matter what driving you do, C-Max will get 47 mpg.

 

I think this is where Ford needs to be careful, hybrids do save fuel as we know but it's sounding more like hybrids tend to

do much better in the city and highway tests than they do in the real world, something being acknowledged by the EPA

spokesman and explained in your well detailed technical post. Perhaps in the quest to improve fuel economy by switching

off the ICE at certain times, Ford and Toyota are now unintentionally "gaming" the test cycle in terms of real world economy...

 

We have heard that the Volt has a mechanical connection of engine and drive at higher speeds, especially highway cruise,

maybe this is an area Ford could look at to eliminate the operation of M1 and M2 you mention above reducing economy drag.

I get the sense that buyers and media now expect tis generation of hybrids to perform equally as well as their ICE counterparts

on highway driving, so maybe there needs to be further refinement of engine and transmission function for that particular cycle,

something Ford may not have perceived necessary at initial development..

Edited December 7, 2012 by jpd80

[rkisler]

 

 

Hit Like if you read this and immediately got a mental picture of an engineer hugging an engine and transmission.

 

akirby, makes you shudder, doesn't it. You should see what goes on behind closed doors!

[Biker16]

my theory and ford has backed this theory up is that the hybrid drive system is too powerful, it allows driver to comfortably push the vehicles harder than they could in a traditional hybrid.

 

 

the idea is that performance is not judged strictly by number but by the ability for the customer to perceive how hard the vehicle is working to achieve that performance.

 

a vehicle that feels quick is more like to be driven faster than one that feels slow.

 

If ford can somehow limit power output of the drive system the MPGs will increase.

[jpd80]

my theory and ford has backed this theory up is that the hybrid drive system is too powerful, it allows driver to comfortably push the vehicles harder than they could in a traditional hybrid.

 

 

the idea is that performance is not judged strictly by number but by the ability for the customer to perceive how hard the vehicle is working to achieve that performance.

 

a vehicle that feels quick is more like to be driven faster than one that feels slow.

 

If ford can somehow limit power output of the drive system the MPGs will increase.

Go back a step, this article is contrived form CR's own test loops and backed up by a few disaffected C-max buyers.

Let's give this some time for more buyers to sample the C-Max and see what more of the feed back is like,

We're hearing from a vocal few because it suits the angle CR is presenting on the C-Max....

 

The initial perception of buyers in test drives is that C-max is swift and capable, two aspects not normally associated with hybrids..

Maybe C-Max buyers are adult enough to realize that performance and economy are directly linked and depending on how

it's driven, the car will either be swift or economical or some balance in between....

Edited December 9, 2012 by jpd80

[old_fairmont_wagon]

In an addendum to the above mentioned operation cycle of a typical hybrid, you have to balance capability with longevity. The problem with the two electrical motors generating drag on the high speed case can be alleviated by building in clutch packs where the motors interface with the planetary gear set. The problem then comes in, how durable are those clutch packs likely to be? If you make them out of unobtanium to be 100K mile durable, they will add a whole lot of cost to the system. If you make them out of recycled beer cans, they can be cheap, but need regular replacing. Plus, they also add weight (and not just a little given the expected torque loads) which works against the economy equation. The current generation of hybrids are very optimized for city and light highway usage cycles. This is typical of the majority of vehicles used for commuting (per the DOT's numbers). I believe that range extended EVs are going to be the long term future, and not the half step that the Volt is, but the fully mechanically decoupled setups like you see in diesel locomotives where the ICE generates only electricity and the only thing driving the wheels is a collection of electric motors.

[YT90SC]

Biker and Jpd, you have both hit the nail on the head. I've driven the Pious though not the new littlest $h!tbox version. Anemic at best. My parents C-Max on the other hand is VERY easy to push a lot harder than you intend to. Often, without watching the speedo, you are going a LOT faster than you intend. It runs hard and handles well. Like all other Ford Hybrids, it is a CAR first and hybrid second, unlike Pious. My mother's biggest complaint is just that-- "I can't hear it." Meaning she drives it a lot harder than she intends. That's why she cant get out of the very high 30's.