Some Ford Dealers miss Small Pickup

[PRM]

Just go back to the post right before mine... Equating small trucks to Mercury is different that what you are saying... Getting beyond that...

 

I've been very understanding of the reality that I'm one of a small minority... And that it is a tentative business case for Ford to bring over the T6 Ranger. As said I don't consider this a vendetta against me personally, but I'm disappointed none the less. To tell the truth as the last few years have developed, and my Ranger has sat more and more I'm perhaps not a buyer in the end. Call it growing up if you will, but demonstrates I have an open mind on this. I will only say based on my set of desires the T6 Ranger seems the best fit... My wish list includes must have 4WD also can carry 4 adults with either a back end full of weekend camping equipment and/or tow 3500 lb (small boat) at altitude. I am inclined to want a open bed so I can load up garden stuff without getting everything dirty. I am also inclined to want the smallest vehicle that meets my desires... Just like the Mountaineer was bought because it was a smaller Expedition/Tahoe in terms of capability. Now I am open to a midsized SUV based "Ford Ridgeline" if you will, but those pushing for a little Brazilian Courier are missing it completely.

Count me as a second in that small minority. It will be a disappointing day when I don't even visit a Ford dealer to look for my next vehicle.

[156n3rd]

Isn't it true that the GM models of today are still crap? Like poor mileage and typical GM cheap truck quality?

(I could never say goodbye to speedbumps)

[sullynd]

Equating small trucks to Mercury

 

Who equated small trucks to Mercury? Not me.

 

My point was that Dealers do not run Ford.

[silvrsvt]

Isn't it true that the GM models of today are still crap? Like poor mileage and typical GM cheap truck quality?

 

The issue is your not going to see huge improvements with a mid sized pickup vs a full sized pickup when it comes to MPG.

 

What it boils down to is are you willing just to buy something smaller and cheaper that gets the nearly the same MPG and has worse capacity as a full sized, just because? I think the market place has already spoken when it comes to that. Given the fact that Americans still have the "bigger is better" mentally and getting a V6 F-150 vs a Ranger that gets nearly the same MPG with more capabilities in towing etc...makes the F-150 more attractive, even though it might be "too big"

 

Thats why a unibody Escape/TC truck makes more sense...It won't be overkill for 80% of the marketplace if it can tow a small boat or make Home Depot runs to get Drywall/Plywood/Landscaping items and get MPG numbers in the High 20s. It doesn't need to tow around 5K either...

[FordBuyer]

Humorously, Toyota *has* updated the Tacoma repeatedly, and its sales are trending downward.

 

Wrong again...I believe Tacoma sales trended upward last year double digits and appear to be heading upward again this year as it outsells the Tundra. Due for redesign soon also.

[Deanh]

Don't need too...Home Depot/Lowes delivers for free

 

Plus I'm sure you can fit a Mini fridge into a TC no problem

 

And if you need to deliver that many refrigerators, you need something bigger then a Ranger...

 

Its a straw man argument...I can easily turn it around and say how can I fit 15 people legally in a Ranger or whatever?

ok, if you must go there...just refer to anything with significant height...youve obviously never owned a pick-up...there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between a pickup and an ENCLOSED van....another reason I find trucks with shells a quandry....

Edited March 18, 2013 by Deanh

[akirby]

Wrong again...I believe Tacoma sales trended upward last year double digits and appear to be heading upward again this year as it outsells the Tundra. Due for redesign soon also.

 

Yes, you are wrong again. It's only an upward trend the last 3 years. Compared to the last 13 years it's still trending downward.

 

2000 147,295 2001 161,983 2002 151,960 2003 154,154 2004 152,933 2005 168,831 2006 178,351 2007 173,238 2008 144,655 2009 ^???? 2010 106,198 2011 110,705 2012 141,365

[NickF1011]

 

Yes, you are wrong again. It's only an upward trend the last 3 years. Compared to the last 13 years it's still trending downward.

 

2000 147,295 2001 161,983 2002 151,960 2003 154,154 2004 152,933 2005 168,831 2006 178,351 2007 173,238 2008 144,655 2009 ^???? 2010 106,198 2011 110,705 2012 141,365

Add in that some of that bump may be attributed to the Ranger no longer being on the market and you really don't have any stronger a case. The segment may be viable for the last surviving players in it, but it would be very difficult to justify entering or re-entering it with a new vehicle.

 

It is very similar to minivans where you have a handful of dominant players that survived the downturn in the segment and where more recent entries from brands like Hyundai, Kia, and Volkswagen have really struggled or outright failed.

Edited March 18, 2013 by NickF1011

[FordBuyer]

Yes, you are wrong again. It's only an upward trend the last 3 years. Compared to the last 13 years it's still trending downward.

 

2000 147,295 2001 161,983 2002 151,960 2003 154,154 2004 152,933 2005 168,831 2006 178,351 2007 173,238 2008 144,655 2009 ^???? 2010 106,198 2011 110,705 2012 141,365

 

Thanks for proving me correct....Tacoma sales have been trending upwards last few years like I stated. Now some of it may be because of the demise of the Ranger, but so what. Tacoma keeps the new Texas plant busy, and it outsells the Tundra plus its sales lately are trending upwards even though its dated. From what I've heard, a new one is being planned. Ford may or may not have made the correct decision ending its entry level pickup, but it seems to be working for Toyota and they have pulled to hook on many vehicles over the years.

[NickF1011]

Thanks for proving me correct....Tacoma sales have been trending upwards last few years like I stated. Now some of it may be because of the demise of the Ranger, but so what. Tacoma keeps the new Texas plant busy, and it outsells the Tundra plus its sales lately are trending upwards even though its dated. From what I've heard, a new one is being planned. Ford may or may not have made the correct decision ending its entry level pickup, but it seems to be working for Toyota and they have pulled to hook on many vehicles over the years.

From 2000 sales:

 

2001: UP

2002: UP

2003: UP

2004: UP

2005: UP

2006: UP

2007: UP

2008: DOWN

2009: ??

2010: DOWN

2011: DOWN

2012: DOWN

 

In what world is that "trending upward the last few years"?? 4 (if not all 5) of the past 5 years have had sales lower than they were in 2000 when the overall market was considerably smaller.

Edited March 18, 2013 by NickF1011

[fordmantpw]

Tacoma keeps the new Texas plant busy...

 

Thankfully, Ford is concerned about making money and not just keeping plants busy. They've been there, done that, learned that lesson.

[FordBuyer]

Thankfully, Ford is concerned about making money and not just keeping plants busy. They've been there, done that, learned that lesson.

 

Ford is doing well, but I would not get into a pissing match with Toyota when it comes to consisent profits over long term, stock price, marke cap, dividend paying over many years, dealership reputations, and on and on. A bad year for Toyota is making a few billion, while a bad year for Ford is losing over $20 billion. Even to this day, Toyota incentives are still lower than Ford. And I hope Ford passes Toyota by every measure someday.

[NickF1011]

Ford is doing well, but I would not get into a pissing match with Toyota when it comes to consisent profits over long term, stock price, marke cap, dividend paying over many years, dealership reputations, and on and on. A bad year for Toyota is making a few billion, while a bad year for Ford is losing over $20 billion. Even to this day, Toyota incentives are still lower than Ford. And I hope Ford passes Toyota by every measure someday.

Toyota's dealership reputation is not exactly stellar compared to the overall market. And the gap in overall incentive spending is a bit misleading considering the higher prices on Ford's most popular vehicles: F-series trucks. Incentives based on a percentage of MSRP (really the only metric that should matter) is much closer. Still in Toyota's favor, but not exactly by a landslide. The only true leader in that regard anymore is Honda.

Edited March 18, 2013 by NickF1011

[FordBuyer]

From 2000 sales:

 

2001: UP

2002: UP

2003: UP

2004: UP

2005: UP

2006: UP

2007: UP

2008: DOWN

2009: ??

2010: DOWN

2011: DOWN

2012: DOWN

 

In what world is that "trending upward the last few years"?? 4 (if not all 5) of the past 5 years have had sales lower than they were in 2000 when the overall market was considerably smaller.

 

I can read numbers, and since 2010 which was the lowest although 2009 numbers weren't reported, the trend is up. And I'm sure 2013 numbers will be up again over 2012. Common sense would tell you that with higher CAFE standards, ever higher fuel prices every summer, the average consumer is looking for smaller vehicle with improved fuel mileage. Ford didn't enter the B segment Fiesta because it wanted to lose money. It knew B segment was getting more popular with skyrocketing fuel prices and new CAFE rules. Pick up segment is not immune from this development. Ford is being smart constantly reviewing the small pickup market. And belive it or not, Ford is not infallible with every decision it makes. Whether the small pickup segment gains popularity overall or not, Ford assuredly will be late to it if it does prove lucrative. Again, I would think every full line manufacturer would want an entry level vehicle in every high volume segment, and pickup segment is highest volume of all.

 

That being said, I know that 2014 is important year with new Mustang, new F-150, and new Edge/MKX plus new MKC. So Ford has its hands full and no real breathing space for now. So I give it a free card. So let's see where fuel prices take us through 2014 and what Toyota and Nissan do with their smaller pickkups plus see how well the new GM entry sells. It will be interesting for sure.

[NickF1011]

and since 2010

That's far too small a sample size to determine a long term trend, not to mention from the lowest year in the past 13 listed. You pick a baseline near average and go from there. Going back as far as 2000 seems to be fair to me. And that's be generous, as it was also one of the lower volume years for the Tacoma over the past decade-plus. The trend looks even worse when compared to 2001-2007.

 

 

 

And I'm sure 2013 numbers will be up again over 2012.

Oh mystical one, do tell us what the future holds for other models while you're fortune-telling.

 

 

 

 

 

Common sense would tell you that with higher CAFE standards, ever higher fuel prices every summer, the average consumer is looking for smaller vehicle with improved fuel mileage.

Which could just as well mean that a lot of buyers will be ditching pickup trucks entirely, compact or not.

Edited March 18, 2013 by NickF1011

[jpd80]

And some could draw the very good argument that part of Tundra's sales failure was in fact due to

the very capable Tacoma convincing buyers that they didn't need that much truck.

 

It would be unfortunate for Ford to introduce T6 Ranger only to discover significant sales drift

away from F150 to T6 Ranger double cabs, that would achieve nothing positive compared

to Ford's existing production and sales situation.

 

It's obvious that Ford doesn't know for sure but is certainly not prepared to find out...

Edited March 18, 2013 by jpd80

[akirby]

Common sense would tell you that with higher CAFE standards, ever higher fuel prices every summer, the average consumer is looking for smaller vehicle with improved fuel mileage.

 

Correct! And that's NOT a mid-sized pickup. It's a small crossover or B or C car or hybrid. Or some new smaller unibody pickup.

 

And you have no experience with common sense.

[LSFan00]

This is another argument for killing the chicken tax and other silly tariffs and standardizing crash/safety/emission regs so if a product makes sense to be built (and/or sold) here, it can just be brought over. T6 Ranger, Fiesta/Focus-based trucklets aside, it's silly for the F-150 to be the base Ford pickup in NA for the next 10 years.

 

We're sure not doing a great job protecting the Ranger production line any longer, are we?

[FordBuyer]

Correct! And that's NOT a mid-sized pickup. It's a small crossover or B or C car or hybrid. Or some new smaller unibody pickup.

 

And you have no experience with common sense.

 

And you really listen as the self-appointed spokemen for Ford truck. How many long threads have there been on here and articles in general on the demise/lament of the Ranger? And how many times have fleet managers and so many individual buyers of compact pickups in great detail expressed what they want in a pickup that is smaller than an F-150 and with significantly lower MSRP? And how many have stated that a smaller footprint is even more important to them than significantly higher fuel mileage? I've lost count long ago. I would bet Ford listens much better than you and is exploring and putting their fingers in the air to pick up how strong the wind of change is.

[akirby]

OK

[NickF1011]

And you really listen as the self-appointed spokemen for Ford truck. How many long threads have there been on here and articles in general on the demise/lament of the Ranger? And how many times have fleet managers and so many individual buyers of compact pickups in great detail expressed what they want in a pickup that is smaller than an F-150 and with significantly lower MSRP? And how many have stated that a smaller footprint is even more important to them than significantly higher fuel mileage? I've lost count long ago. I would bet Ford listens much better than you and is exploring and putting their fingers in the air to pick up how strong the wind of change is.

And how many of those people go and buy a Tacoma or Frontier instead of an F-150?

[FordBuyer]

So you guys think if GM and Chrysler offer a compact crew cab pickup in 2014, all Ford will do is continue with F-150 XLT V6 single cab as competition or maybe a stop gap compact Courier? Whatever happens, it will be interesting next year as small pickup segment slowly gets its act together with new Tacoma and GM entry. I agree that it's a vexing issue, but one that must be dealt with sooner or later.

[fordmantpw]

So you guys think if GM and Chrysler offer a compact crew cab pickup in 2014, all Ford will do is continue with F-150 XLT V6 single cab as competition or maybe a stop gap compact Courier? Whatever happens, it will be interesting next year as small pickup segment slowly gets its act together with new Tacoma and GM entry. I agree that it's a vexing issue, but one that must be dealt with sooner or later.

 

I think it all depends on the success of the other entries in the market. If the new Colorado and Ram little truck do well, then look for Ford to join them, unless you also see Silverado and Ram numbers dropping along with the increase in Colorado and Ram little truck. If those offerings don't do well, then, no, it won't have to be dealt with sooner or later.

 

And those offerings won't be compact trucks. They will be mid-sized trucks. I look for Ford to come out with a compact truck as has been discussed. Ford isn't going to just throw something out there, either. If they do it, they are going to do it right, after putting a lot of thought and careful consideration into it, and make sure they have the right product for the market. They aren't going to offer something just to say they offer it, unless it is something unique and truly niche like the current Transit Connect, and it is there just to gauge interest or hold them over for a couple years.

[NickF1011]

So you guys think if GM and Chrysler offer a compact crew cab pickup in 2014, all Ford will do is continue with F-150 XLT V6 single cab as competition or maybe a stop gap compact Courier? Whatever happens, it will be interesting next year as small pickup segment slowly gets its act together with new Tacoma and GM entry. I agree that it's a vexing issue, but one that must be dealt with sooner or later.

I think Ford would be wise to wait and see if they end up being anymore successful than GM's and Chrysler's last forays into the segment. The Colorado/Canyon and Dakota have not exactly been stellar performers over the last decade. I don't see any reason why new versions would automatically change those results.

[akirby]

It's really simple - Ford will wait and see what happens with the NEW F150 and what happens with the competition in the meantime. Then they'll reevaluate to see if it makes sense to bring T6 Ranger here.

 

The truly compact pickup is a new market segment that nobody is currently in and that will be a separate business decision.

 

 

What you guys continue to not understand is that it's not about sales. I know Ford could easily sell 75K or even 100K T6 Rangers. But at what cost? There is engineering work for U.S. drivetrains at least and it's not easy to just import it so you may need a NA factory. And it will most definitely cannibalize some F150 sales so the question is what is the net incremental profit versus the big investment? It may still be positive but it may not be big enough to jump ahead of other things in the pipeline.

 

Which would be better for Ford - 100K Ranger sales or an additional 100K F150 sales? There are virtually no incremental costs to add 100K F150 sales. The incremental cost to add 100K Rangers is significant. It's that simple.