Lutz: "Diesels do not make economic sense"

[JasonM]

"Lutz also said diesels don't make economic sense for most Americans, citing as much as a $5,000 price premium over gasoline engines, plus higher fuel costs over gasoline. "The American public, by in large, has figured it out that diesels from a cost of ownership standpoint in the United States with present technology and present emissions, diesels not make economic sense," Lutz said."

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130418/AUTO01/304180447/1148/auto01/Ex-GM-exec-Lutz-says-fuel-economy-regulations-will-add-5K-cost-cars

 

[twintornados]

In related news....yawn.....

[jpd80]

It all depends on a perceived need for a diesel option by the buyers,

that's why Ford offers a diesel in Super Duty and new Transit.

 

I think a case could be made for a diesel option in F150, Expedition and maybe Explorer

but I also expect that Ford will watch and see how Chrysler-Dodge Ram diesels sell.

 

If there's a softening of gas prices and significant reductions in weight for 2015 F150

and next Expedition may make any question of a diesel option a moot point.

[MKII]

After doing some very amateur research of diesel sales in Europe, I have come to the conclusion that a large percentage of new vehicle sales with diesel engines

are company (fleet) or as they call them in UK Rep cars.

 

Retail new car sales are mainly gasoline.

Edited April 19, 2013 by MKII

[7Mary3]

They don't make much sense in trucks below 26,000#'s GVW.

[jpd80]

Here's more proof:

 

Chevy Cruze diesel: 46 highway mpg, but only 27 in town

 

Chevrolet says the diesel version of its Cruze compact sedan will be rated by the government at 46 miles per gallon on the highway, the best of any non-hybrid car.

But mileage ratings in the city and in city/highway mix aren't so spectacular. City rating: just 27 mpg; mix, 33 mpg.

 

While the highway number gives Chevy a win over chief rival Volkwsagen Jetta TDI diesel's 42 mpg highway rating, the Jetta TDI prevails in the other categories.

It's rated 30 mpg in the city and 34 mpg in mixed driving.

 

VW is the only mainstream purveyor of diesel at the moment. The 2014 Cruze diesel goes on sale in some cities the next few weeks, then nationwide and in Canada by early this fall.

 

Mazda also joins the mainstream-brand diesel parade this summer with a diesel version of its redesigned, 2014 Mazda6 midsize sedan.

It has given no details on that car.

Diesels are more expensive than gasoline cars, and diesel's usually pricier than gasoline. But diesel vehicles usually can go much further on a gallon.

 

Chevy had forecast 42 mpg on the highway when it unveiled the car at the Chicago auto show in February. Chevrolet says it was being conservative

and that its engineers

have been working on continuous incremental improvements to boost mileage.

Cruze diesel, which comes only with a six-speed automatic transmission, starts at $25,695, including $810 shipping. Jetta TDI with automatic is $24,885;

manual starts at $23,795.

 

Chevy says the Cruze has more standard features than the Jetta, including leather seating, larger wheels and a longer powertrain warranty.

The Cruze diesel is rated 148 horsepower, 258 pounds-feet of torque. Jetta: 140 hp, 236 lbs.-ft.

Chevy notes that it sells Cruze worldwide and has sold more than 33,000 diesel-power models in other countries since the compact launched in 2010.

Edited April 19, 2013 by jpd80

[MKII]

Quote

Chevy notes that it sells Cruze worldwide and has sold more than 33,000 diesel-power

models

in other countries since the compact launched in 2010.

 

That is not very many diesel Cruze versus what overall sales of the Cruze via GM media sources "GM has sold nearly 2 million Chevrolet Cruze models globally since it was launched in mid-2010" source 2013-02-07 http://media.gm.ca/media/us/en/gm/press_kits.detail.html/content/Pages/presskits/us/en/Chevrolet/Cruze-Diesel.html

Edited April 19, 2013 by MKII

[chevys]

Diesels dont make sense and neither do hybrids when you run the numbers. The only exception to this is pickups that are towing constantly. The people buying them obviously dont know how to do simple math. Never mind the complexity of them.

[fordmantpw]

Diesels dont make sense and neither do hybrids when you run the numbers. The only exception to this is pickups that are towing constantly. The people buying them obviously dont know how to do simple math. Never mind the complexity of them.

 

If every purchase was purely about economical feasibility, then I would agree with you. But, it's not.

 

I don't save money driving a diesel, and I didn't buy it to save money. I bought it to tow my fifth wheel relaxed and in comfort, and it does that extremely well. If it costs me a bit more, then so be it! I don't tow constantly, probably less than 20% of my miles are towing, but it sure is nice having that power and low-end torque to tow with. When it comes time to replace it, I hope to be able to replace it with an EcoBoosted F250.

[lfeg]

It all boils down to this - for many people buying a car is not about what makes economic sense, it is emotional. So what if Chevy wants to go after a niche market with a diesel Cruze, maybe they are going after incermental sales.

 

The Raptor is the same thing - emotion driven, not driven by economic sense. Cars are marketed to appeal to emotion.

[4d4evr-1]

Diesels dont make sense and neither do hybrids when you run the numbers. The only exception to this is pickups that are towing constantly. The people buying them obviously dont know how to do simple math. Never mind the complexity of them.

My C-Max hybrid has cut my gas bill more than $100/mo and the hybrid system is guaranteed 8 yr or 100K miles so in 8 years I will save $10.000. What does not make this a money saving value.

 

Ford EcoBoost has made diesels ineffective in most cases.

[Bob Rosadini]

If every purchase was purely about economical feasibility, then I would agree with you. But, it's not.

 

I don't save money driving a diesel, and I didn't buy it to save money. I bought it to tow my fifth wheel relaxed and in comfort, and it does that extremely well. If it costs me a bit more, then so be it! I don't tow constantly, probably less than 20% of my miles are towing, but it sure is nice having that power and low-end torque to tow with. When it comes time to replace it, I hope to be able to replace it with an EcoBoosted F250.

 

 

It all boils down to this - for many people buying a car is not about what makes economic sense, it is emotional. So what if Chevy wants to go after a niche market with a diesel Cruze, maybe they are going after incermental sales.

 

The Raptor is the same thing - emotion driven, not driven by economic sense. Cars are marketed to appeal to emotion.

Guys-right on- case in point-good friend of mine-and a CPA at that. Bought a new 6.0 Power Stroke-manual. Truck was pushing 100,000 and never did a lick of work in its life. Immaculate vehicle. He decides he wants a new one- I try to talk him into a loaded 150..."take it to an exhaust shop the day you get it, put a set of pipes on it, you'll love it..blah-blah".

 

Nope- buys a new PS- 58 grand sticker. This is a numbers guy. Why? I guess he thinks he looks good driving a "DIESEL". By the way, never a bit of trouble with the old 6.0- dealer gave him 12,500 for it and will wholesale it.

 

To add to 7M's point on trucks under 26,000. Gas does make sense UNLESS you really have a power issue or you run big miles and the MPG math offsets the initial premium as well as the fuel price differential. The first cost to mpg issue was always the business case. IMO the fuel cost differential as is the power issue are new components to the issue.

[jpd80]

But why would you buy a Cruze diesel that gets 27/46 when even the 46 is debatable because it's a converted Euro Extra urban figure...

Edited April 19, 2013 by jpd80

[lfeg]

But why would you buy a Cruze diesel that gets 27/46 when even the 46 is debatable because it's a converted Euro Extra urban figure...

Manufacturer cannot put a converted Euro number on the sticker. Only numbers allowed are those from the EPA cycle tests that the manufacturers themselves run. (and there are audits, just ask Hyundai/Kia)

 

As to the why, Why would someone buy a Mustang? Because they want to. That is the only answer needed.

[jpd80]

Manufacturer cannot put a converted Euro number on the sticker. Only numbers allowed are those from the EPA cycle tests that the manufacturers themselves run. (and there are audits, just ask Hyundai/Kia)

 

As to the why, Why would someone buy a Mustang? Because they want to. That is the only answer needed.

I Know that but the numbers flashed around are identical to converted euro figures for the car in another market.

Those reading came from GM in an announcement, I think someone got their wires crossed,,,,,

 

Btw, thosee fuel economy figures are almost identical to the 2.0 DI Focus gasoline tested under Euro cycles..

[RichardJensen]

By the way, never a bit of trouble with the old 6.0

 

Probably because he never did any work with it!

 

(and probably only bought fuel at the cleanest and best stations)

[aneekr]

But why would you buy a Cruze diesel that gets 27/46 when even the 46 is debatable because it's a converted Euro Extra urban figure...

 

One reason is that both gasoline engines offered in the U.S. market Cruze (Family 0 1.4L turbo and Family 1 1.8L) are rather underwhelming in terms of performance and real world fuel economy when combined with an automatic transmission. The VM Motori RA420 diesel should be a significant upgrade in this respect.

 

Ideally, diesel Cruze models for the U.S. market would offer a manual transmission just as Volkswagen does with its C-segment TDI models here.

[fordmantpw]

Probably because he never did any work with it!

 

(and probably only bought fuel at the cleanest and best stations)

 

Working the 6.0s is good for them...it keeps the vanes on the turbo exercised. The most important thing for the 6.0 was clean fuel (as you mentioned) and not modding it. It didn't take well to modding.

 

My father never had an issue with his 6.0. My brother is on his 3rd engine in his. My father putting most of his miles on towing a fifth wheel, whereas my brother does tow with his, but most of his miles are empty.

[Deanh]

Diesels dont make sense and neither do hybrids when you run the numbers. The only exception to this is pickups that are towing constantly. The people buying them obviously dont know how to do simple math. Never mind the complexity of them.

back at ya...best compromise in my mind is a diesel hybrid......

[RaZor]

My bro has a F250 6.0 and pulls a 5 horse trailer (w/horses) several times per month - sometimes fairly long distances and it's his daily driver. He is well over 100k miles now - and has absolutely NO problems with his 6.0 PS. You make it sound like people that "work" their 6.0PS all have problems.

 

Not true.

 

But then he knows how to take care of it - which may mean that he is smart enough to NOT buy diesel from a 'dirty' station. Kinda common sense IMO.

[silvrsvt]

Ideally, diesel Cruze models for the U.S. market would offer a manual transmission just as Volkswagen does with its C-segment TDI models here.

 

don't see that helping sales numbers that much....

[silvrsvt]

But then he knows how to take care of it - which may mean that he is smart enough to NOT buy diesel from a 'dirty' station. Kinda common sense IMO.

 

The problem is trying to find a good station...I had a friend who had a F-250 (was stolen in 2006 or so in Canada!) Diesel and he ran into issues with fuel with it a couple times, and this was at a major brand name gas station in New Jersey, where you would think they would have good turnover with Diesel (was having water/fuel issues) but it still happened.

[chevys]

My C-Max hybrid has cut my gas bill more than $100/mo and the hybrid system is guaranteed 8 yr or 100K miles so in 8 years I will save $10.000. What does not make this a money saving value.

 

Ford EcoBoost has made diesels ineffective in most cases.

 

Problem is you paid 10K too much for it to begin with. Buy a 15K Fiesta and drive it into the ground and keep the 10K in your pocket. Not that much difference in fuel mileage between the two. NOt enough to matter let alone the Fiesta is simple. I dont get the hybrid thing. They make zero economic sense.

[Deanh]

Problem is you paid 10K too much for it to begin with. Buy a 15K Fiesta and drive it into the ground and keep the 10K in your pocket. Not that much difference in fuel mileage between the two. NOt enough to matter let alone the Fiesta is simple. I dont get the hybrid thing. They make zero economic sense.

no he didnt, the C-Max is EXCELLENT value with screeds more content than the base fiesta AND starts at 25k...and is a totally different class than the Fiesta. By your thinking you should seek out the $9995 Versa and keep the 6k in your back pocket.....enjoy........

[fordmantpw]

Problem is you paid 10K too much for it to begin with. Buy a 15K Fiesta and drive it into the ground and keep the 10K in your pocket. Not that much difference in fuel mileage between the two. NOt enough to matter let alone the Fiesta is simple. I dont get the hybrid thing. They make zero economic sense.

 

Why don't you just buy a bicycle and get infinite miles to the gallon then? Much more economical than a car!

 

Face it, buying a NEW car makes zero economical sense.