Expedition and Navigator Among Others Moving to Aluminum Bodies

[Harley Lover]

In an article in Automotive News about the "move to aluminum" in the auto industry, there was this nugget:

 

 

Rosner's sources indicate that by 2017 Ford will be using aluminum bodies on five other pickups and SUVs: the F-250, F-350, Navigator, Expedition and Expedition EL.

That would bring Ford's aluminum bodies to more than 1 million units per year, he said. He added that the five vehicles will move to the F-150 platform.

Spokesman Mike Levine declined to comment on Rosner's report.

I recall some speculation about the Expy and Navi, and this was the first time I've seen something fairly definitive about their status wrt aluminum. Also thought the mention of the larger F's merited an inclusion for the group to discuss.

Full article here: http://www.autonews.com/article/20140602/OEM01/306029952/a-flurry-of-activity-in-aluminum

*Rosner is an analyst quoted in the article in several places.

[PREMiERdrum]

 

I recall some speculation about the Expy and Navi, and this was the first time I've seen something fairly definitive about their status wrt aluminum.

 

Then you haven't been reading my posts for the last 2+ years!

 

The aluminum Expy and Navigator have been put on "hold review" and delayed a few times, but they've never been cancelled. The mishandling of the 2015 MCE was a little disappointing, but I have longterm excitement for Ford making strides in these segments.

[jpvbs]

I find the claim that all 5 vehicles will be using the F150 platform to be the more interesting rumor in that quote.

[akirby]

I find the claim that all 5 vehicles will be using the F150 platform to be the more interesting rumor in that quote.

 

It didn't say that. It said aluminum bodies, not F150 platform.

 

Edit: Oops - I was just going by the quote above. I see the article does say that after all. That would be interesting if F150 and Superduty are moving to a common platform.

Edited June 6, 2014 by akirby

[fordmantpw]

I find the claim that all 5 vehicles will be using the F150 platform to be the more interesting rumor in that quote.

 

 

 

It didn't say that. It said aluminum bodies, not F150 platform.

 

Edit: Oops - I was just going by the quote above. I see the article does say that after all. That would be interesting if F150 and Superduty are moving to a common platform.

 

I could see the F150 and Super Duty going to a common top hat, but a common platform is a bit more sketchy. I mean, you can't just swap in a bigger frame and call it a day. You need stronger everything...axles, brakes, tranny, transfer case, everything! How do you share a platform between the two? Top hat? Maybe, possibly. Platform? I just don't see how.

[RichardJensen]

I doubt very much that we're going to see that. I think someone's reading too much into the tea-leaves.

 

Look at the dimensions & WBs for the SD & F150. There's a reason why that vehicle is on its own platform and you can spell it with one word (albeit a non-standard compound):

 

Powerstroke.

 

 

 

Until Ford needs to make the F150 big enough to hold a dang-near-7L V8 diesel with twin turbos mounted in the V, that needs quick-release bolts to enable cab removal for major service........................ you're going to see two different trucks.

 

The SD body needs to be unique, unless you want to add unnecessary complexity and size to a higher volume product.

 

And of course the frames were never going to be shared, so............

[blazerdude20]

 

 

 

I could see the F150 and Super Duty going to a common top hat, but a common platform is a bit more sketchy. I mean, you can't just swap in a bigger frame and call it a day. You need stronger everything...axles, brakes, tranny, transfer case, everything! How do you share a platform between the two? Top hat? Maybe, possibly. Platform? I just don't see how.

Even top hat makes little sense. No one else shares a top hat. Similar body styling sure, but the top hats are surely different in every dimension.

[fordmantpw]

I doubt very much that we're going to see that. I think someone's reading too much into the tea-leaves.

 

Look at the dimensions & WBs for the SD & F150. There's a reason why that vehicle is on its own platform and you can spell it with one word (albeit a non-standard compound):

 

Powerstroke.

 

 

 

Until Ford needs to make the F150 big enough to hold a dang-near-7L V8 diesel with twin turbos mounted in the V, that needs quick-release bolts to enable cab removal for major service........................ you're going to see two different trucks.

 

The SD body needs to be unique, unless you want to add unnecessary complexity and size to a higher volume product.

 

And of course the frames were never going to be shared, so............

 

Agreed! Especially with the 6.2L disappearing from the F150, making the largest V8 in the 'little' F Series being only 5.0 L.

[fordmantpw]

Even top hat makes little sense. No one else shares a top hat. Similar body styling sure, but the top hats are surely different in every dimension.

 

Yep. That's where the 'maybe, possibly' came in. I don't foresee it happening, but if there was sharing, that's about as far as it would go.

 

I haven't looked, but how much do the GM trucks share between 1500 & 25/3500 models? Same for Dodge? I know they sure look the same. I'm betting they share the same skins, and interiors. There could be some savings sharing interiors, beds, doors, but I would think the front clip would need to be entirely different to support the PowerStroke.

[lfeg]

GM and Dodge share cabs between the half tons and larger The way that GM does it is that the cabs are mounted higher above the frame on 3/4 and 1 ton models to allow more room under the hood and floor for larger engines and the Allison transmission used on the Duramax.

 

With proper engineering, Ford would not need a "quick to remove" cab on the Superduties. They did this so thay would not have to invest in changes to a long used cab structure. With a redesign of the cab the "quick removal" feature may not be necessary.

Edited June 6, 2014 by lfeg

[wildosvt]

I find the claim that all 5 vehicles will be using the F150 platform to be the more interesting rumor in that quote.

 

 

I said that the super Duty would be going to F-150 a couple years ago.

[wildosvt]

I doubt very much that we're going to see that. I think someone's reading too much into the tea-leaves.

 

Look at the dimensions & WBs for the SD & F150. There's a reason why that vehicle is on its own platform and you can spell it with one word (albeit a non-standard compound):

 

Powerstroke.

 

 

 

Until Ford needs to make the F150 big enough to hold a dang-near-7L V8 diesel with twin turbos mounted in the V, that needs quick-release bolts to enable cab removal for major service........................ you're going to see two different trucks.

 

The SD body needs to be unique, unless you want to add unnecessary complexity and size to a higher volume product.

 

And of course the frames were never going to be shared, so............

 

 

Plans may have changed. But SD and 150 are/were to get same IP Rich.

[fordmantpw]

 

 

I said that the super Duty would be going to F-150 a couple years ago.

 

Hopefully the F250 gets in IFS to go along with it!

[Pioneer]

I'm still hearing that there is no definite decision to have an aluminum SD, or to have it share anything with the 150.

[jpd80]

The issue is the body shop and if as I suspect, Expedition and Navigator are built in the same body shop as Super Dutys

then changing one to Aluminum would by necessity require the others to change in order to reduce/avoid contamination.

My bet is they go to cost effective HT steel bodies and new designed frames that get a fair chunk of weight out,

maybe Expedition-Navigator are given bolt on panels in aluminum as a concession.

 

Keep in mind the new Medium Duty trucks will also use more cab elements from F350-450 so everything now has to mesh

together and work for other products, could it be that timing of MD truck platform requires use of HT steel body by all?

Edited June 7, 2014 by jpd80

[Pioneer]

There's always the possibility of Expedition/Navigator moving to DTP if they go aluminum and SD stays steel.

[jasonj80]

There's always the possibility of Expedition/Navigator moving to DTP if they go aluminum and SD stays steel.

Is the capacity at DTP for that? Ford wants back into that segment again with the next redesign.

[Pioneer]

Is the capacity at DTP for that? Ford wants back into that segment again with the next redesign.

If things go back to normal after the '15 launch, KCAP goes back to 2 shifts. You could run more 150 there and Expi/Gator at DTP or vice versa. I don't know how flexible KCAP is.

[jpd80]

If things go back to normal after the '15 launch, KCAP goes back to 2 shifts. You could run more 150 there and Expi/Gator at DTP or vice versa. I don't know how flexible KCAP is.

So there's possibility that one of the plants could be reconfigured to accept Expedition/Navigator production as well?

 

That would free up Kentucky Truck to concentrate on Super Duty and maybe some additional cab parts for Avon Lake Medium Duty.

Edited June 8, 2014 by jpd80

[Pioneer]

There's always a possibility. DTP has been a Flex plant since it opened in 2003. It's just never been utilized past the F-150 models.

[jpd80]

There's always a possibility. DTP has been a Flex plant since it opened in 2003. It's just never been utilized past the F-150 models.

I'm thinking speed through the body shop as being the limiting factor, is there any suggestion that the new Aluminum bodies

are quicker or easier to assemble with rivets and glue as opposed to conventional steel bodies?

 

I understand that the lower sections are still steel and that adds some complexity. just wondering if the new construction

process allows Ford to make more builds per hour. I could imagine that being a big factor in all of this.

[Footballfan]

I would not be surprised to see some potential F-150 buyers meander to the F-250 or 350. This would mean increased work for KTP and the possibility of the Navigator/Expedition moved to DTP especially if the latter vehicles are built off the 2015 F-150.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Footballfan

[Pioneer]

I'm thinking speed through the body shop as being the limiting factor, is there any suggestion that the new Aluminum bodies

are quicker or easier to assemble with rivets and glue as opposed to conventional steel bodies?

 

I understand that the lower sections are still steel and that adds some complexity. just wondering if the new construction

process allows Ford to make more builds per hour. I could imagine that being a big factor in all of this.

There will be less subassemblies in the body shop. Stamping is doing more of that work. Don't know the job speed yet, but I can't see it being less than what we have now. And the only part of the body and bed that is steel are the two corners at the bottom rear of the cab.

[twintornados]

....And the only part of the body and bed that is steel are the two corners at the bottom rear of the cab.

How did Ford overcome the problems associated with mating aluminum and steel without the inherent corrosion effects that happen? are they separated by a mastic or other type of insulating material?

[jpd80]

There will be less subassemblies in the body shop. Stamping is doing more of that work. Don't know the job speed yet, but I can't see it being less than what we have now. And the only part of the body and bed that is steel are the two corners at the bottom rear of the cab.

Thanks Pioneer,

If I'm reading your post correctly, it sounds like more of the sub-assembly work can be done in the stamping area, freeing up the body shop

to do major assembly only, sounds like that pre-assembly is where Ford will make up some time in the process, so much for the rumors that

Ford's body shops would be weighed down with new and more complex/slower assembly methods.

 

Couple that with what you've told us in the past regarding the added reliability of new generation robots for welding, riveting and glueing,

along with new presses/stamping, it seems that Ford is making tech changes at the right time to take advantage of best industry practice,

 

Ford works its plants very hard, perhaps this new technology is well deserved given the rigors expected over the coming years,

seems like very small gaps for maintenance these days with almost no "float" for unexpected failures/outages...

 

 

How did Ford overcome the problems associated with mating aluminum and steel without the inherent corrosion effects that happen? are they separated by a mastic or other type of insulating material?

I don't think it the issue you suggest, especially if the parts are fully sealed and protected from moisture,

the other way to protect is to have a slight current in the reverse direction to prevent galvanic corrosion.

Edited June 9, 2014 by jpd80