VW caught cheating on emissions

[blwnsmoke]

It just keeps getting better and better..

 

There is a conflicting piece of information. Title says "diesel and hybrid" but article says "gasoline or hybrid".

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/volkswagen-is-offering-2000-incentive-for-diesel-and-hybrid-customers/

 

"Volkswagen is Offering $2,000 Incentive For Diesel and Hybrid Customers"

 

 

 

Existing Volkswagen owners can receive $2,000 toward the purchase or lease of any new gasoline or hybrid Volkswagen model and the offer can be combined with any other offer, except for dealer employee participation or fleet programs. The company will also continue its September incentive programs that included huge dealer-cash bonuses of $2,000 to $2,750 for gasoline Passat sedans, $2,250 for gasoline Jetta sedans and $4,000 for the Touareg, CC and Eos convertible.

 

I wonder how customers are truly going to take this. If you are not a diesel customer, then do you really care that VW was cheating on their diesels? If you are a diesel customer, well with the stop sale on them all, what good is $2,000 off a diesel (if the title is correct) when you can't buy them and have no idea when you will be able to?

Edited October 7, 2015 by blwnsmoke

[jpd80]

The appropriate fix will also be different from model to model, according to one of the people familiar with Volkswagen’s plans. The larger 2-liter engines affected already come with a tank of so-called AdBlue solution to neutralize harmful nitrogen oxides. Without the software, the customer would simply need to refill the tank more frequently.

The smaller engines, which have systems that collect nitrogen oxides in the car, are potentially more complicated, because they can’t be retrofitted, the person said. Once the exhaust traps are full, the residue is burnt off inside the engine, affecting fuel economy. Depending upon what regulators demand, Volkswagen may have to install larger catalytic converters.

 

This article is slightly inaccurate, VW uses AdBlue in the 2.0 TDI only on heavier vehicles like Toureg and Passat,

lighter cars with the 2.o TDI get by as explained above, with NoX trap and catalyst.....these are the harder ones to fix.

Edited October 7, 2015 by jpd80

[jpd80]

[RichardJensen]

It would amuse me to no end if it turned out that CU did not, in fact, put these vehicles in "cheat" mode.

 

Because their assumption is that an open circuit, that is, no signal from the rear position sensor, will be interpreted as 'rear wheel is not moving'.

 

That's a pretty stupid assumption to make--but one which I fully expect engineers who think that they're smarter than OEM engineers to make.

 

I'm going to guess that disconnecting the rear wheel position sensors triggered several warning lights in the vehicle showing that the stability control, traction control and ABS systems were inoperative.

 

If that's the case, it seems extremely unlikely that the defeat mechanism would trip, as the defeat mechanism would have to trap for BOTH no wheel rotation and an error state.

Edited October 10, 2015 by RichardJensen

[akirby]

I thought it also used the steering position sensor..........

[jpd80]

I thought it also used the steering position sensor..........

That was the original assumption but since then, it's been revealed that the sequence required

is to disable DSC for dyno testing activates the emission software.The DSC handles all inputs from

steering, ABS brakes and traction control.

 

I can see where Richard is coming from, the big assumption is that simply disabling rear wheel sensors

will keep the thing in "Cheat mode" but they use the drop in fuel economy and performance as the smoking gun.

 

What lies at bottom oif this is that VW engineers though their cheat would never be detected and that would have

remained a secret without a small group of researchers emission testing the cars in actual driving - whooda thunk?

And even , those researchers were trying to show that VW USA car versions were cleaner than the Euro wversions.

 

Good detective work exposes inexplicable lapses in engineering honesty,

the Germans engineered the cars to pass a test and that's all they do...

Edited October 10, 2015 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

they use the drop in fuel economy and performance as the smoking gun

 

I have my doubts about that as well. I cannot fathom VW pursuing a course this reckless for a ~5% increase in FE. I don't trust CR any more than I trust VW.

 

It's possible that running the EPA test cycle w/the rear wheel position sensors disengaged produces the ~20% difference in FE that would correspond to the published figures and various self-reported totals, but of course, CR didn't do that because they think their light-weight, unpublished and unverifiable FE test is superior.

[jpd80]

In short, another CR gold standard test that no one but them can verify as accurate.... sound right?

 

If CR was worth a damn, they would have been emission testing diesel cars in the US years ago,

all this does is ride the coat tails of what is already known with data that may or may not be accurate.

[bzcat]

 

I have my doubts about that as well. I cannot fathom VW pursuing a course this reckless for a ~5% increase in FE. I don't trust CR any more than I trust VW.

 

It's possible that running the EPA test cycle w/the rear wheel position sensors disengaged produces the ~20% difference in FE that would correspond to the published figures and various self-reported totals, but of course, CR didn't do that because they think their light-weight, unpublished and unverifiable FE test is superior.

 

Well, they didn't pursue the reckless cheating for increase in FE. They did it to pass CARB emission. I think you got your cause and results backwards. The 5% boost in FE is a result of running the car in non-compliant mode.

 

But I get your dig at CR not using the actual verifiable EPA test cycle to do this comparison test.

 

CR's methodology is probably otherwise correct. We do know something about VW's decision making... they resisted selling A3 TDI Quattro and Tiguan TDI in the US despite both making lots of marketing sense. The lack of AWD TDI in the US tells us something about the defeat mode - that rear wheel motion plays an important role in activating the cheat mode.

Edited October 12, 2015 by bzcat

[RichardJensen]

 

Well, they didn't pursue the reckless cheating for increase in FE. They did it to pass CARB emission. I think you got your cause and results backwards. The 5% boost in FE is a result of running the car in non-compliant mode.

 

I worded that poorly.

 

What I meant was: "I don't see VW pursuing a course this reckless for a ~5% increase in *real world* FE"

 

If compliance was only going to reduce FE ~5% on the road, I don't think VW cheats.

[bzcat]

 

I worded that poorly.

 

What I meant was: "I don't see VW pursuing a course this reckless for a ~5% increase in *real world* FE"

 

If compliance was only going to reduce FE ~5% on the road, I don't think VW cheats.

 

Right... the difference is probably more like 10~15% decline in the official EPA cycle vs. real world.

 

Plus there is probably durability or drivability concerns that are not even reflected in the reduced FE numbers.

[Donaldo]

 

 

CR's methodology is probably otherwise correct. We do know something about VW's decision making... they resisted selling A3 TDI Quattro and Tiguan TDI in the US despite both making lots of marketing sense. The lack of AWD TDI in the US tells us something about the defeat mode - that rear wheel motion plays an important role in activating the cheat mode.

Except VAG has been selling VW Touareg, Audi Q5, Audi Q7, and Porsche Cayenne TDIs for a while in the US which are all AWD and none have been accused of cheating. It is true that 4cyl AWD diesels are somewhat rare in the US -MB Sprinter, Mercedes GLK/GLC, ML/GLE, E250, BMW 328d and X3 are about it.

[RichardJensen]

 

Right... the difference is probably more like 10~15% decline in the official EPA cycle vs. real world.

 

Plus there is probably durability or drivability concerns that are not even reflected in the reduced FE numbers.

 

I think it's worse than 15%. VW was advertising 38/44MPG (41MPG) on a vehicle that carried a 34MPG combined rating.

 

Amusingly ironic in hindsight source for the numbers above here: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1019256_volkswagen-jetta-tdi-much-more-mileage-than-epa-admits

[RichardJensen]

Last July, Volkswagen hired independent tester AMCI to test the Jetta TDI's "real world" mileage on the road. They came back with 38 city / 44 highway--or 24 percent and 10 percent higher respectively.

 

 

:hysterical:

[bzcat]

Except VAG has been selling VW Touareg, Audi Q5, Audi Q7, and Porsche Cayenne TDIs for a while in the US which are all AWD and none have been accused of cheating. It is true that 4cyl AWD diesels are somewhat rare in the US -MB Sprinter, Mercedes GLK/GLC, ML/GLE, E250, BMW 328d and X3 are about it.

 

Those vehicles use urea injection to meet CARB emission.

 

The 4 cylinder TDI can't meet CARB or EPA emission because VW didn't want to go the route with expensive urea exhaust after treatment. That's the whole point. So they developed the cheat to get around the problem. This of course means they couldn't sell the AWD 4 cylinder TDI in the US (e.g. A3, A4, Tiguan) despite those vehicles making a lot more sense in the US market than for example, FWD Jetta wagon TDI.

Edited October 13, 2015 by bzcat

[MKII]

Anyone watch Michael Horn testify before the House Energy & Commerce Committee?

 

Apparently VW is going to blame a few rogue engineers for sneaking the cheat device in for whatever reason.

 

Congressman Chris Collins (engineer by trade) hammered Volkswagen for blaming rogue engineers.

He completely rejects Horn’s explanation of the events.

He tells Horn to tell those in Germany that this response in insufficient and is arrogant.

He says when trying to figure out a way to meet emissions standards, VW engineers were stumped - “what is stumped?” asks Horn - and could not figure it out. Collins says he finds it difficult to believe that when the cars finally met the emissions standards, no one said: This is break through technology. Let’s patent this.

Collins says that he categorically rejects the story of two rogue engineers adding a line of code into software with no one asking any questions. Either VW is incompetent, he says, or they are complicit in a “massive cover-up”.

[RichardJensen]

Of course VW is going to do that.

 

What will be very interesting is the extent to which criminal and civil attorneys for the US government force the production of documents at VW.

 

Because I can just about guarantee that there were dozens of engineers and managers at VW that wrote------and kept----memos that registered their strong disapproval of this course in order to provide them with cover when the matter finally came to light.

[jpd80]

Of course VW is going to do that.

 

What will be very interesting is the extent to which criminal and civil attorneys for the US government force the production of documents at VW.

 

Because I can just about guarantee that there were dozens of engineers and managers at VW that wrote------and kept----memos that registered their strong disapproval of this course in order to provide them with cover when the matter finally came to light.

VW corporate bosses would have been fully across all decisions if not the ramifications for short cutting they can't marginalize this.

This has the mindset of minimums, "all we need to is provide a car that can pass the emission test when called to do so."

[RichardJensen]

You can bet that there were no paper records of approval of this maneuver. Unless VW were absolutely, incredibly, off-the-rails stupid about this.

 

 

 

 

 

Which, thinking about the friendly relationship between VW and the German government, the lack of an aggressive civil tort/court system in continental Europe, general EU hubris about the reach of US discovery/legal action..................................

 

There might be a smoking gun after all. There might, in fact, be tons of paperwork detailing the decision process here.

 

Getcher popcorn ready.

[jpd80]

Exactly Richard, VW group thought that it would never be found out and probably had the huberis to think

that they had complied to the letter of the law by vehicles being able to pass an emission test on demand.

 

When you think about that attitude and methodology, you can see how VW painted themselves into a corner

and because Europe is not going for real world driving tests until 2018, VW probably had eyes on compliance

beyond that date... a good way to bury the cheat software at the end of this product cycle in 2 or 3 years time.

 

This is not rogue engineers, this is corporate governance overruling engineering prudence

but yes, that is still to be completely proven...

 

Germans who don't follow rules, what next Koreans that respect patents?

Edited October 13, 2015 by jpd80

[probowler]

And people think socialist governments will save them from greedy corporations HAHAHAHA

[MKII]

September 30, Skoda boss Winfried Vahland was promoted as CEO of VW Group’s newly-formed North American Region (NAR). http://www.carscoops.com/2015/09/former-skoda-boss-winfried-vahland.html

Today Winfried Vahland, will leave the automaker due to differences over the shape of the region's operations.

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20151014/ANE/151019955/vws-designated-north-america-chief-to-leave-automaker?cciid=email-autonews-blast

[blazerdude20]

VW says 2016 models use new method to cheat on emissions test. Jeez. This has to put to bed the rogue engineer theory. This is flat out an attempt to cheat the system again AFTER being caught the first time.

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/10/vw_2016_diesel_models_contain.html#incart_river_mobile_home

Edited October 14, 2015 by blazerdude20

[silvrsvt]

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1100498_vw-to-recall-8-5-million-diesel-cars-in-europe-lamborghini-offices-raided-by-police?fbfanpage

 

VW To Recall 8.5 Million Diesel Cars In Europe; Lamborghini Offices Raided By Police

[blwnsmoke]

Hefty Discounts on VWs.. Seems dealers are hurting quite a bit. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be one right now.

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-dealers-offer-hefty-discounts-diesel-crisis-keeps-210316443--finance.html

 

 

 

Retail price discounts range up to $7,850 on the 2015 Passat, according to an online survey of VW dealers on Wednesday. Discounts of up to $7,290 are being offered on the 2015 Jetta and up to $5,625 on the 2016 Jetta. Battery electric models such as the e-Golf have discounts of up to $11,000, while gasoline-electric models such as the Jetta Hybrid have prices slashed by up to $6,000.

 

 

 

The one TDI model left on most VW dealer lots - the big Touareg V6 crossover - now comes with some of the heaviest price cuts, with a Houston dealer offering $11,400 off the sticker price of 2016 models and nearly $15,000 off 2015 models.