T-dubz Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 22 minutes ago, jasonj80 said: Part of the problem is that they are realizing that a majority of existing Ford sedan buyers are not going to suv’s; they are going elsewhere. You have data from surveys before it happens, you get real data when you make the change. As good as survey metrics are they don’t always work well in future predictions. You also have an issue is that Gen Z likes sedans, and ship them equal to suv’s. Gen Z is important as they like cars more than millennials do. What did ford expect to happen? I think everyone knew they’d go somewhere else. There’s really two issues going on here, size and price. If I wanted to get a ford suv comparatively sized to the fusion, I’d have to go up to the edge, which is thousands more. I could go down in size to an escape, but now I get a cramped back seat and still probably end up paying a bit more than the fusion. if I wanted to get a suv comparatively priced to the fusion, I’d have to go eco sport or escape. Nobody wants an eco sport and as mentioned above the escape has rear seat space issues. the beauty of the sedan was that you could start of with a low price, get most of the options you really wanted, have room for your family, and still walk out the door with a good price. The price conscious shopper can’t do that with suvs, so what do they do? They go to Honda or Toyota or Hyundai. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 1 hour ago, jasonj80 said: Part of the problem is that they are realizing that a majority of existing Ford sedan buyers are not going to suv’s; they are going elsewhere. You have data from surveys before it happens, you get real data when you make the change. As good as survey metrics are they don’t always work well in future predictions. You also have an issue is that Gen Z likes sedans, and ship them equal to suv’s. Gen Z is important as they like cars more than millennials do. Ford is basically doing the same thing here that they have done in the past with other segments and that is just abandon them. Sedans could easily come back in style again and if so I expect Ford to re-enter the market about 6-8 years after the fact. That's generally how far they traditionally have been behind the curve whether we are talking downsizing cars in the 70's, FWD midsized sedans in the 80's, Full sized 4 door SUVs in the 90s, economical, modern compact and midsized sedans in the 00s, or a modern mid-sized pickup in the 10s. Ford has always been behind on most things and although they have produced some good products when they finally come out with them they have always had to play catch up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 I think Ford realizes they will be losing some sedan sales. Yes, not everyone that was interested in a sedan will move to a Ford utility vehicle. Ford's plan was to limp along a bit with the Fusion. Then have the Focus and the longer Focus Active pick up the "cheap" sedan sales. But the whole China deal has thrown that plan out the window. Ford was probably hoping the tariff's would go away sooner rather than later. Since it hasn't, that's why the Fusion has been extended. I thought in a couple of years the Focus was slated to come to NA for manufacturing. But if that was going to be a Mexican plant, that plan too is probably screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 20 minutes ago, 92merc said: I think Ford realizes they will be losing some sedan sales. Yes, not everyone that was interested in a sedan will move to a Ford utility vehicle. Ford's plan was to limp along a bit with the Fusion. Then have the Focus and the longer Focus Active pick up the "cheap" sedan sales. But the whole China deal has thrown that plan out the window. Ford was probably hoping the tariff's would go away sooner rather than later. Since it hasn't, that's why the Fusion has been extended. I thought in a couple of years the Focus was slated to come to NA for manufacturing. But if that was going to be a Mexican plant, that plan too is probably screwed. Well if the President goes forward with the Mexico tariff plan that'll create an even bigger mess for the automakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) Fusion and Focus' demise is all because Fields panicked and cancelled SLP and decided to use existing plants for new products while off-shoring car production as the ultimate cost reducer and hedge against market change. Not surprisingly, Field's alterations to the original plan did not take into account external threats to the plan and that's when Focus and Fusion became casualties. Ford has now convinced itself that its better to cap US sales at around 2.5 Million and just keep building richer and richer model mix to get to Hackett's 10% return. It's not that next gen Fusion of Focus built in Mexico would be unprofitable, Ford just can't be bothered expending funding and resources to build affordable vehicles...or at least they weren't gong to....... Edited June 6, 2019 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC6482 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 3 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Why? It looks like the are focusing the car towards fleet options (Hybrid/Law Enforcement) and not really retail says or just keeping them at the lower end. This discourages regualr retail buyers. They don't want a sedan that could disappear from the market at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 On 6/4/2019 at 4:00 PM, T-dubz said: yep, I think the rav4 xse hybrid is the best looking in the segment right now, and it also gets 41 mpg. If the bronco scout doesn’t work out, this will probably be at the top of my list. Styling is obviously subjective and you are certainly entitled to you opinion but to my eye that is an ugly mess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) Ford bosses were eager to boost stock price, so they said "cars are dead" to please Wall St. Meanwhile Asian makes "have no plans" to cancel cars. The late Sergio M at FCA started the domino effect when killed Dart/200 and acted like "if you are too cheap to buy a truck, we don't want your business". Sure, can say "sour grapes" to car business, but parking a 4 -door pickup [which Ford expect people to sign their life savings away] in the city, where many young adults live, is a b^^ch. Also, ride share drivers are getting business in Asian cars. I take back saying that "maybe it was a good idea" to drop cars, not anymore. Edited June 6, 2019 by 630land 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 35 minutes ago, PeterC6482 said: This discourages regualr retail buyers. They don't want a sedan that could disappear from the market at any time. I agree but don't really understand why. The car not continuing does not change the car you have purchased. So why would you care. Yes you can't buy another if you like it but when any car gets replaced by an all new model yes the name is the same but the old car is no longer being made. So what is the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 1 hour ago, 92merc said: I think Ford realizes they will be losing some sedan sales. Yes, not everyone that was interested in a sedan will move to a Ford utility vehicle. Ford's plan was to limp along a bit with the Fusion. Then have the Focus and the longer Focus Active pick up the "cheap" sedan sales. But the whole China deal has thrown that plan out the window. Ford was probably hoping the tariff's would go away sooner rather than later. Since it hasn't, that's why the Fusion has been extended. I thought in a couple of years the Focus was slated to come to NA for manufacturing. But if that was going to be a Mexican plant, that plan too is probably screwed. The other thing too is they keep saying there's all of these "white space" vehicles coming (whatever that means) and we haven't seen them yet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 "White space" vehicles was another "bone" for Wall St. I hope Hackett is out on the street soon! My big beef with Mark Fields is, on his watch, Ford didn't do anything about the DCT to keep customers. Just saying "you should have bought a truck" drains sales for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 18 minutes ago, tzach said: Styling is obviously subjective and you are certainly entitled to you opinion but to my eye that is an ugly mess. I wasn't going to say anything but to me the hood is too long, the back end is too bulky and the wheel wells are GM ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, T-dubz said: What did ford expect to happen? I think everyone knew they’d go somewhere else. There’s really two issues going on here, size and price. If I wanted to get a ford suv comparatively sized to the fusion, I’d have to go up to the edge, which is thousands more. I could go down in size to an escape, but now I get a cramped back seat and still probably end up paying a bit more than the fusion. if I wanted to get a suv comparatively priced to the fusion, I’d have to go eco sport or escape. Nobody wants an eco sport and as mentioned above the escape has rear seat space issues. the beauty of the sedan was that you could start of with a low price, get most of the options you really wanted, have room for your family, and still walk out the door with a good price. The price conscious shopper can’t do that with suvs, so what do they do? They go to Honda or Toyota or Hyundai. That price difference is no different at other brands, so let's not pretend that's a Ford issue. I went through 5 brands - Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and compared them. The breakdown of models is on the left, the overall is on the right - using Ford as a baseline, red means the competitor's price difference is HIGHER than Ford's, green means it's LOWER. So Ford is right in line with the other brands, aside from midsize, where they have a larger difference from the sedan competition. Edited June 6, 2019 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: The other thing too is they keep saying there's all of these "white space" vehicles coming (whatever that means) and we haven't seen them yet. Exactly. Meanwhile, GM already has the blazer on dealer lots and has shown the trailblazer and encore. Kia just showed it’s seltos, Hyundai showed the venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 On 6/5/2019 at 10:53 AM, rperez817 said: Summary of 2020 Ford Fusion changes in U.S. Steering Wheel Mounted Paddle Shifters with SelectShift® removed from 1.5L Engine SE and SEL Gas Fusion V6 Sport no longer available Auto Halogen Headlamps replaces LED Signature Lighting Mini Spare Tire is optional Fleet Only on S, SEL, and Titanium (Gas). Previously, it was Standard Upper Grille – Chrome Surround with Black Bars replacesChrome Bars on S (Gas) Seatback Map Pocket – Passenger Seat only 6-Way Power Passenger Seat (fore/aft, up/down with recline) now standard on Titanium rather than 10-way Power Passenger Sat 4-Way Manual Passenger Seat (fore/aft with recline) is nowStandard on SE (Gas-FWD and Hybrid) and SE Appearance Package rather than 6-way Power Passenger Seat Rear Inflatable Safety Belts has been replaced with Rear Seat Belt Pretensioners New colors. Alto Blue Metallic Tinted, Iconic Silver (JS), Rapid Red Metallic Tinted Ford Fusion Accounting Office: The Cheapo Depot! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 As was stated above this is the result of a dozen other decisions made over the course of a few years and not a simple "let's kill it" decision. The real question is what are they developing with the cash they're saving on Focus and Fusion? If those turn out to be hits then it was worth it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 8 minutes ago, rmc523 said: That price difference is no different at other brands, so let's not pretend that's a Ford issue. I went through 5 brands - Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and compared them. The breakdown of models is on the left, the overall is on the right - using Ford as a baseline, red means the competitor's price difference is HIGHER than Ford's, green means it's LOWER. So Ford is right in line with the other brands, aside from midsize, where they have a larger difference from the sedan competition. The difference is ford is leaving the sedan market and expecting its customers to buy more expensive vehicles. They other manufacturers are not leaving the segment so they will still have an offering in the size and price people want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 26 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: The other thing too is they keep saying there's all of these "white space" vehicles coming (whatever that means) and we haven't seen them yet. White space vehicles? That sounds like vaporware to try and lessen concerns that Ford is shrinking from a full-line automaker to a large pickup and full size SUV builder with a couple unremarkable small CUVs thrown into the mix. I guess that's fine if it's profitable, but it puts them into the same corner FCA now finds itself in and no one would consider FCA healthy from a product standpoint. Anyhow walking away from a sedan like the Fusion that did a lot to promote a positive image for Ford is ridiculous. Toyota doesn't walk away from successful brands and that's one reason they are so strong today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, T-dubz said: The difference is ford is leaving the sedan market and expecting its customers to buy more expensive vehicles. They other manufacturers are not leaving the segment so they will still have an offering in the size and price people want. They're not expecting all of those sedan buyers to buy more expensive utilities - just some of them. They're also planning to pick up conquests on other vehicles like Bronco, Hybrid Escape, Scout, Mach E, etc. to fill that gap. And while the others will have an offering to fill that gap, they're not going to be making much money doing it. The sedan market is saturated and too competitive to generate much profit. The other mfrs are staying in it because they don't have a lot of other things to spend that money on. Ford has other options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said: White space vehicles? That sounds like vaporware to try and lessen concerns that Ford is shrinking from a full-line automaker to a large pickup and full size SUV builder with a couple unremarkable small CUVs thrown into the mix. I guess that's fine if it's profitable, but it puts them into the same corner FCA now finds itself in and no one would consider FCA healthy from a product standpoint. Anyhow walking away from a sedan like the Fusion that did a lot to promote a positive image for Ford is ridiculous. Toyota doesn't walk away from successful brands and that's one reason they are so strong today. Why are they unremarkable? --- And I agree with you, I think it's a mistake to drop all sedans. I think they were fine getting rid of Fiesta and Taurus, but I'd have kept Focus and Fusion. I still think we'll see a next-gen Fusion that's nothing more than a lifted liftback (sedan with hatch) and dubbed a "crossover". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said: White space vehicles? That sounds like vaporware to try and lessen concerns that Ford is shrinking from a full-line automaker to a large pickup and full size SUV builder with a couple unremarkable small CUVs thrown into the mix. I guess that's fine if it's profitable, but it puts them into the same corner FCA now finds itself in and no one would consider FCA healthy from a product standpoint. Anyhow walking away from a sedan like the Fusion that did a lot to promote a positive image for Ford is ridiculous. Toyota doesn't walk away from successful brands and that's one reason they are so strong today. You're ignoring Bronco, Bronco Scout, Ranger, Edge, Nautilus, Escape, Escape hybrid, Corsair, Corsair hybrid, Explorer, Explorer Hybrid, Aviator, Aviator GT, Ecosport replacement and a small trucklet in addition to Transit, Transit Connect, Mustang and Mach-E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Just now, rmc523 said: Why are they unremarkable? --- And I agree with you, I think it's a mistake to drop all sedans. I think they were fine getting rid of Fiesta and Taurus, but I'd have kept Focus and Fusion. I still think we'll see a next-gen Fusion that's nothing more than a lifted liftback (sedan with hatch) and dubbed a "crossover". Next gen Focus is easy once they convert Mexican plants to C2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 5 minutes ago, akirby said: They're not expecting all of those sedan buyers to buy more expensive utilities - just some of them. They're also planning to pick up conquests on other vehicles like Bronco, Hybrid Escape, Scout, Mach E, etc. to fill that gap. And while the others will have an offering to fill that gap, they're not going to be making much money doing it. The sedan market is saturated and too competitive to generate much profit. The other mfrs are staying in it because they don't have a lot of other things to spend that money on. Ford has other options. They should still stay in the sedan market. How many sales are they going to lose because someone who is a "Ford" person but wants to buy a car goes over to Toyota and then really likes the "cars" and decides they also want an SUV and then they will cross shop what Toyota sells. So Ford may be nearsighted on this for long term growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, msm859 said: They should still stay in the sedan market. How many sales are they going to lose because someone who is a "Ford" person but wants to buy a car goes over to Toyota and then really likes the "cars" and decides they also want an SUV and then they will cross shop what Toyota sells. So Ford may be nearsighted on this for long term growth. Absolutely, one affordable sedan is what I think Ford is doing for those reasons. IMO a 2.3 6 speed MT / 8-10 AT Fusion sport replacement would get me out my Foucs ST, not an heavy Edge ST and surely not a $56k Explorer ST. I don't think you'll see a compact Ford car other than Fiesta in the States anymore unless they'll import Focus ST/RS for a price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 37 minutes ago, msm859 said: They should still stay in the sedan market. How many sales are they going to lose because someone who is a "Ford" person but wants to buy a car goes over to Toyota and then really likes the "cars" and decides they also want an SUV and then they will cross shop what Toyota sells. So Ford may be nearsighted on this for long term growth. How many conquests will they get with Bronco, Scout and model E? It works both ways. You guys act like Ford is just pocketing the cash and not investing it in other vehicles, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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