UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[Oac98]

13 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Toyota absolutely took UAW wage rates into account. Toyota itself didn't mention that explicitly at its grand opening event, but economists interviewed in several news reports at the time of TMMTX's opening confirmed it. This goes back to what Maislebandit said (which is correct): Foreign companies, suppliers and down the line set wages based on what the UAW garners for the membership. Not just in Texas but throughout the U.S.

Top rate of pay at TMMC which is Toyota Canada is 39.58 an hour CAD. They have a similar grow in like we do. I don’t hear people complaining about their wages. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

8 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Top rate of pay at TMMC which is Toyota Canada is 39.58 an hour CAD. They have a similar grow in like we do. I don’t hear people complaining about their wages. 

It’s because it’s not publicly talked about every 4 years 

[Oac98]

22 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

It’s because it’s not publicly talked about every 4 years 

Toyota just gave this raise recently probably in anticipation that we would be getting wage increases. We currently make base rate 37.33 CAD. I agree Toyota just sent the bulletin out to employees it’s not for public consumption. 

[akirby]

28 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Top rate of pay at TMMC which is Toyota Canada is 39.58 an hour CAD. They have a similar grow in like we do. I don’t hear people complaining about their wages. 

Wages are similar but benefits are drastically cheaper.  No retiree pensions or free healthcare etc.  

[Bob Rosadini]

8 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

You know the answer to that Akirby. This is about getting the lower tier on par with veteran workers in terms of pay. In progression takes 8 years now to full pay. That needs to change. 

Agree. but no way should two tier be abolished..that utimately hurts the senior employee.  Two tier lowers the total labor cost making the company more competitive with the non union US Japanese and Korean operations thereby insuring a plant closure is less likely

 

.And as I said previously, two tier will not work when there is wage parity in the market.  But when I watch an assembly video and see some person slapping a grill on a 150 at what $30 or more per hour and  there are order pickers in a warehouse making 25 would you rather have a repetitive job,  and no  offense, but lesser skill job in a warehouse for 25 or a 30 buck job at Ford.....with all kinds of benefits.

[Rangers09]

4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

That’s not a fair comparison when the average price of a house in 1982 was less than $100k. I believe if I’m not mistaken it was around $88k.

 

It’s $450k today and with the institutional investors coming in and buying everything in sight it won’t be going down any time soon, if ever. 

 

In Metro Vancouver, our first basic starter home in the furthest reaches of the suburbs  cost $110K in 1982. When factoring in the salary delta, I'll suggest It is a fair comparison, as wages were also significantly lower in the 1980's. Based on the job I had then, the current incumbents are now making almost 3 times what I made in 1982.

 

Basic interest costs, using your figures

 - $88K at 21% = $18,480 per year before any principle 

 - $450K at 5% = $22,500 per year

 

Therefore, today somebody with a $450K mortgage at 5% is paying only $4,000 more in interest than I paid on a $88K mortgage in 1982. These days the salary will be at least double or triple what I made in 1982, so current mortgage rates shouldn't be any more challenging than we experienced.

 

Our post war parents also had an even tougher time making ends meet when younger, but those that worked hard, lived within their means, built a pension and invested wisely enjoyed a reasonably comfortable golden years, so I'll suggest it is consistent for many generations.

[Bob Rosadini]

7 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I hate this argument. My pay hasn’t changed in 2 years and yet I suddenly find myself struggling to pay bills. I haven’t made any major purchases in the last 3 years and yet I suddenly find myself picking and choosing which bills to pay late on a month to month basis. But go ahead, keep telling us we don’t deserve a bigger cut of the pie.
 

It’s not us who’s out of touch, it’s you older generation folks who had it so good for so long and were able to sock away money. This is why I couldn’t care less whether or not the retirees get a cut of this new contract. I’m tired of hearing them brag about their second homes and buying motorhomes and other luxuries when those of us who are newer to the working world (~15 years or less) only fall further and further behind. 

It’s hard to swallow a 20% raise over the life of a 4 year contract, especially when we see other companies agreeing to 30 or 40 percent (sometimes more in the case of UPS). Again, this isn’t the hill the union is choosing to die on though. It’s mostly job security concerns, especially with Stellantis. 

Ever see a fat UPS driver?  Everything they do is closely monitored.  And the UPS settlement was unbelievable..in particular if a package car driver wage- as the delivery drivers I believe are still called- is the same as a guy  driving double bottoms

[Bob Rosadini]

8 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

What difference does that make? Shawn Fain is not the lead negotiator, Chuck Browning is. I wasn’t a fan of Fain calling out John Tavares for being absent either, works both ways.

 

Because often in negotiations  "optics" are critical.  Don't you think that was raw meat for some of your more rabid brothers?  Not sure if that is the correct word but Fain basically said "*uck you" .  No different than Putin and Xi messafged by not rttending the G-20.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Hourly pay is the same in Package Car as Feeders (tractor-trailers) but Feeders is a lot less physical work and less stressful, downside is Feeders is mostly night work. Some Feeder runs are on mileage pay but they get hourly pay for non driving work so those runs can be quite lucrative. Suffice to say, you usually need several years seniority in Package Cars to bid in to Feeders so many prefer Feeders even without a pay boost.

[Rangers09]

2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

Top rate of pay at TMMC which is Toyota Canada is 39.58 an hour CAD. They have a similar grow in like we do. I don’t hear people complaining about their wages. 

 

When dealing with employees costs, even in Canada, where we don't have expensive health insurance costs, the hourly wage can be only about 50% of the total employee cost for many unionised employers. Therefore, to effectively compare Toyota's remuneration costs to those of Canadian Ford employees, you need to know the relative costs of the entire benefit package and other non-wage costs. On the West Coast, my total employee costs were almost double the hourly wage for my unionised employees. I suspect Ford might be close, or even a little higher. Without having any definitive data, I expect Toyota's benefit package and other non-hourly wage costs, are less than my last company and possibly lower than Ford Canada as well.

 

Therefore, comparing the hourly wage at different companies does not provide an accurate representation of the relative employee costs. Toyota could easily match or exceed Ford's hourly rate and still have less overall labour costs, per hour, and that doesn't factor in other metrics such as productivity. 

 

Back in the days I managed a shipyard, our trades were making about $32/hr CAD, since that was a few years ago, I suspect the 39.58/hr CAD is probably about an average market rate in Metro Vancouver/South Ontario areas for skilled or experienced semi-skilled trades type work these days.

[Maislebandit]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Well you could look at this way-if you can become skilled trades, you can always move on to another job that pays better after you finish your apprenticeship. I know there are alot of other things to weight also, but that is an option.  

Absolutely. Not any reason to turn down any apprenticeship!

[Bob Rosadini]

5 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Let me make something clear here, a 20% raise over 4 years actually does sound great to me, especially if it’s front loaded over the first 2 years. I’ve been kind of playing devils advocate a little bit. What my biggest wish is for the return of COLA, and at a little bit of a better formula than what it was in 08 when it was suspended. I haven’t verified this myself but I’ve had a few people in the know tell me that had that formula still been in effect under the 2019 contract it would have been and extra $3/hr or so and that wouldn’t have really made up for the massive inflation we saw over the last 2 years. 
 

My bigger concern is why a journeyman electrician only makes $4 more than production. That’s absurd on its face. 

Well Fuzzy you make a good point...but whose fault is that?  My bet is there are not many electricians (AKA votes) in the bargaining unit  as there are guys/gals on the line.  Also is there only one electrician classification ?  If so I  have to believe given  the level of automation today, the skill sets required of an electrician today are far different than they were 20 years ago. Or is the maintenance on these robots outsourced to the manufacturer?

 

In any case if a journeyman electrician is content to make 4 bucks more than someone slapping grills in or putting two pieces in a valve body and pushing it down the line, I guess the benefits must be a huge offset to keep that electrician in the UAW.

[Maislebandit]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Wages skyrocketed.  Do you really not understand that the big 3 had virtually no import competition in the 50s 60s and 70s or are you just trolling?  The UAW demanded higher and higher wages by threatening to strike (and striking) and the big 3 gave in because as long as all 3 paid the same then nobody had an advantage.  Then the imports come in paying market and higher wages but far below Detroit and in the 90s and 2000s the big 3 are caught in a huge cost disadvantage and 2 went bankrupt and Ford came really close.  
 

You can’t compete with other companies if their costs are significantly lower than yours.

Post war everything was booming. An era of great prosperity where a blue collar worker could support a family well and have a spouse at home for the kids unlike today. Autoworkers should’ve been no exception, so forgive me if I fail to follow your logic there.
As far as the imports go, they stepped into the game with zero legacy costs and benefited from technology and an infrastructure that the big three had already developed. 
Trolling? Idk how you figure anything I stated equates to that but ok?

[fuzzymoomoo]

5 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Well Fuzzy you make a good point...but whose fault is that?  My bet is there are not many electricians (AKA votes) in the bargaining unit  as there are guys/gals on the line.  Also is there only one electrician classification ?  If so I  have to believe given  the level of automation today, the skill sets required of an electrician today are far different than they were 20 years ago. Or is the maintenance on these robots outsourced to the manufacturer?

 

In any case if a journeyman electrician is content to make 4 bucks more than someone slapping grills in or putting two pieces in a valve body and pushing it down the line, I guess the benefits must be a huge offset to keep that electrician in the UAW.

Im just starting the apprenticeship program right now (which is making this all that much more stressful) and I will say this, yes the skill set required today is completely different than what it was 25-30 years ago. PLCs in themselves is a specialty that takes a lot of time to navigate and master. At my building there’s technically a few different “classifications” if you can really call it that, it’s more just what department you’re in. That doesn’t make any difference in pay, we all make the same thing. 
 

Votes is kind of irrelevant, Trades and production vote on the contracts separately. 2015 I believe it was FCA that had their trades vote down their contract but it was somehow overruled by UAW international. I’m not entirely sure how and why that happened. 

[akirby]

7 hours ago, Maislebandit said:

Post war everything was booming. An era of great prosperity where a blue collar worker could support a family well and have a spouse at home for the kids unlike today. Autoworkers should’ve been no exception, so forgive me if I fail to follow your logic there.
As far as the imports go, they stepped into the game with zero legacy costs and benefited from technology and an infrastructure that the big three had already developed. 
Trolling? Idk how you figure anything I stated equates to that but ok?

If you can’t admit or don’t understand what I explained about the UAW in the 50s-70s then there is no point in further discussion.

[Oac98]

10 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Agree. but no way should two tier be abolished..that utimately hurts the senior employee.  Two tier lowers the total labor cost making the company more competitive with the non union US Japanese and Korean operations thereby insuring a plant closure is less likely

 

.And as I said previously, two tier will not work when there is wage parity in the market.  But when I watch an assembly video and see some person slapping a grill on a 150 at what $30 or more per hour and  there are order pickers in a warehouse making 25 would you rather have a repetitive job,  and no  offense, but lesser skill job in a warehouse for 25 or a 30 buck job at Ford.....with all kinds of benefits.

Two tier is garbage, that’s my opinion. When I started it was 1.5 years to full rate. 

[akirby]

19 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Two tier is garbage, that’s my opinion. When I started it was 1.5 years to full rate. 

In the real world you start as an entry level worker and progress to higher pay based on performance and experience with raises and promotions.  Adjusting for inflation I make 4 times now what I made my first year 37 years ago.  It’s very rare that you walk in off the street and are at max salary immediately.  And that makes it so much harder for the company to control labor costs.

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

In the real world you start as an entry level worker and progress to higher pay based on performance and experience with raises and promotions.  Adjusting for inflation I make 4 times now what I made my first year 37 years ago.  It’s very rare that you walk in off the street and are at max salary immediately.  And that makes it so much harder for the company to control labor costs.

Nobody is asking for that. 8 years is too long, it should be the length of 1 contract at most. 

[Bob Rosadini]

6 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im just starting the apprenticeship program right now (which is making this all that much more stressful) and I will say this, yes the skill set required today is completely different than what it was 25-30 years ago. PLCs in themselves is a specialty that takes a lot of time to navigate and master. At my building there’s technically a few different “classifications” if you can really call it that, it’s more just what department you’re in. That doesn’t make any difference in pay, we all make the same thing. 
 

Votes is kind of irrelevant, Trades and production vote on the contracts separately. 2015 I believe it was FCA that had their trades vote down their contract but it was somehow overruled by UAW international. I’m not entirely sure how and why that happened. 

 

Good luck Fuzzy in the apprenticeship program..I think you will do well.  And you make another good point that supports what I said..I retired 13 years ago and long before I retired PLC's were on the scene...and if an electrical contractor didn't have a working knowledge of  those, he wasn't doing our work.  And when I said an electrician is making 4 bucks more than someone slapping grills into place both the UAW and Ford are responsible for that.  Its all about getting a contract and both management and the union play to the vote count.

[ice-capades]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

In the real world you start as an entry level worker and progress to higher pay based on performance and experience with raises and promotions.  Adjusting for inflation I make 4 times now what I made my first year 37 years ago.  It’s very rare that you walk in off the street and are at max salary immediately.  And that makes it so much harder for the company to control labor costs.

 

When I was the Business Agent for the IATSE Motion Picture Local (Projectionists) we had about 40-45 members with about two thirds being full-time members providing projectionist services at 1^st, 2^nd and 3^rd run theatres.

 

At the time and for many years, projectionists in CT were licensed through the CT Department of Public Safety through the CT State Police that had qualified inspectors that conducted the licensing tests. Projectionists actually had more authority over theatre operations than theatre management as related to public safety.

Apprentice members were not paid during their training time and didn’t get paid until they were qualified and licensed by the State of CT.

 

The “Relief” schedules to cover members working full time was covered by members making themselves available for such assignments. The condition was that they had to accept whatever work was assigned regardless of the contract terms in place at the theatre or the conditions. The understanding was that the assigned work would be balanced out between conditions and wages so that it would be fair.

 

Members available on the “Relief” schedule on a regular basis enjoyed better wage and condition benefits based simply on their better availability.

 

There were a small number of members that made themselves available for work only to maintain their union membership and benefits. One member made himself available but literally demanded that he only be assigned to work available at 1^st run theatres such as Showcase Cinemas. I explained the policy about schedule assignments and rotation, but he refused to accept the policy. He worked a few shifts and then disappeared. He went on to produce a successful TV series that he created but I never felt guilty about the work policy I enforced.

 

New hires have no right to expect the same wages and benefits that were earned by their senior co-workers. At the same time, they should not have to work 4-8 years to earn those same benefits. If they can’t prove their qualifications in about 2 years, they shouldn’t be working for the company.

[Bob Rosadini]

2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

Two tier is garbage, that’s my opinion. When I started it was 1.5 years to full rate. 

Oj

I'm assuming you are a senior employee.  When you started 1.5 yrs may have been a reasonable progression rate.  But the competitive pressures on the company were not the same.  Can you imagine the lines that formed when Henry instituted the $5 day?  Just as they would form today if Ford offered your wage  after 18 months of service.  Why?  Because there are probably too many people that are making half of what you make including your benefit package.

 

Two tier works because there are too many people out there for who that start wage represents a huge gain. Now an 8 year progression in my book is nonsense. This is one of those concepts that  can work to the benefit of Ford and the UAW.  Both just have to have a realistic view..which right now IMO neither have when it comes to this issue.

[Oac98]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

In the real world you start as an entry level worker and progress to higher pay based on performance and experience with raises and promotions.  Adjusting for inflation I make 4 times now what I made my first year 37 years ago.  It’s very rare that you walk in off the street and are at max salary immediately.  And that makes it so much harder for the company to control labor costs.

Shouldn’t be 8 years. Fuck that. Just sayin. I predict they will settle in the middle eventually. 

[Oac98]

57 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Oj

I'm assuming you are a senior employee.  When you started 1.5 yrs may have been a reasonable progression rate.  But the competitive pressures on the company were not the same.  Can you imagine the lines that formed when Henry instituted the $5 day?  Just as they would form today if Ford offered your wage  after 18 months of service.  Why?  Because there are probably too many people that are making half of what you make including your benefit package.

 

Two tier works because there are too many people out there for who that start wage represents a huge gain. Now an 8 year progression in my book is nonsense. This is one of those concepts that  can work to the benefit of Ford and the UAW.  Both just have to have a realistic view..which right now IMO neither have when it comes to this issue.

I am a senior employee. Well UAW and UNIFOR will have to hash the out with the company. 11 years was terrible 8 years sucks so maybe they settle at 4. I do agree though that a starting rate is a starting rate and almost nobody walks of the street to top wages. The issue here is some people will have been working there for years and are temps and need to be brought to fulltime. UNIFOR may be out on strike at midnight tonight as well. 

[jasonj80]

15 hours ago, akirby said:

Wages are similar but benefits are drastically cheaper.  No retiree pensions or free healthcare etc.  

He's in Canada which is drastically different conditions than what is going on in the United States with costs it is significantly worse and is increasingly very sad. -  When I visit Canada to see family I can't get over how expensive most things are and that is with a 30% discount.  Single family housing costis 1.4 Million in the GTA also your mortgage rate isn't set for the life of the mortgage you have to go back in and renegotiate the rate every 5 years. So the duration terms stay the same but but the payment changes over it.  People are seeing their mortgage rates go UP by $1400 a month because they had a 2% rate and now their rate is 6.5%. Oakville where the Ford plant is even worse than that where you are at  2 million+ for a nice 3-4 bedroom house and rent will be close to 3K/3.5K a month for a two bedroom. Even if you get far away from the GTA houses will still be $600,000K+ and rent over $2500. Average selling price for real estate was $702,000K for all of Canada.

 

Even at $83,000 on the Toyota top rate after taxes that is $66,000 take home after taxes, then 13% HST on most everything you buy, fuel at about $6/gallon I can see why he has the passion he does about this, if you want to get beyond paycheck to paycheck living you need to work every amount of overtime you can and still going to be driving 1-2 hours each way to work and saving everything extra to come up with the 20% down.

 The healthcare component is substantially cheaper for any company as it is usually a supplement plan that covers Prescriptions, Therapy, etc which might be $1,800 a year. Figure an additional $22,000-$25,000 for US healthcare cost.  Canada is throwing billions at the industry to get them to invest as it is one of the last industries Canada has for political/environmental reasons they have basically killed the oil, gas, fishery, and forestry industry. Not really sure how a county that is less than about 1.4% of the population of India and China's population is going to do much, but that's what the majority(ish) voted for.

 

6 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im just starting the apprenticeship program right now (which is making this all that much more stressful) and I will say this, yes the skill set required today is completely different than what it was 25-30 years ago. PLCs in themselves is a specialty that takes a lot of time to navigate and master. At my building there’s technically a few different “classifications” if you can really call it that, it’s more just what department you’re in. That doesn’t make any difference in pay, we all make the same thing. 
 

Votes is kind of irrelevant, Trades and production vote on the contracts separately. 2015 I believe it was FCA that had their trades vote down their contract but it was somehow overruled by UAW international. I’m not entirely sure how and why that happened. 

International can always overrule and approve the contract. It is in there as a protection for the Union as if the contact gets voted down the company could go to the NLRB and say we negotiated in good faith but still have labor issues. Union could have to pay fines etc which could be substantially large as they can ask for lost production value.

[jasonj80]

1 hour ago, ice-capades said:

New hires have no right to expect the same wages and benefits that were earned by their senior co-workers. At the same time, they should not have to work 4-8 years to earn those same benefits. If they can’t prove their qualifications in about 2 years, they shouldn’t be working for the company.

That is the hill the UAW dies on all the time is protecting dead beats. Usually because they are a family member of a UAW member or Rep. It is really the reason that anyone that spends a long amount of time in the plant has issues with the way the UAW operates. Drunk, call offs, no shows, sick etc etc oh you're connected you can go sleep in the bathroom for 6 hrs. The workers that show up every day and do their job and cover those deadbeats. Prove yourself get paid, F*** Off and get fired.

The biggest issue I've seen with step up pay in contracts is in a lot of industries is a small but very vocal group that went though the step-up but now are at top wage want to KEEP THE STEPS. "I went though it they should too" "we need to fight for other things as I already have this" It is BS but they can be relentless.  Full pay should be after your probation period of a year or two; someone shouldn't be a temp worker for years in the hope they will get full time.