UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

Shouldn’t be 8 years. Fuck that. Just sayin. I predict they will settle in the middle eventually. 

8 years might be too long but zero is stupid.  It means a person can walk in off the street and do the job just as well as someone who’s been there for 20 years.  If that’s the case why do I need to keep older employees?  

[Oac98]

4 year grow in prediction  

[paintguy]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

8 years might be too long but zero is stupid.  It means a person can walk in off the street and do the job just as well as someone who’s been there for 20 years.  If that’s the case why do I need to keep older employees?  

Agree. The starting wage though has become uncompetitive, in many locations. So a boost in that rate is needed. A 4 year grow in makes sense. Being qualified on more jobs on the line would be something I would like to see if I were a 1st line supervisor.

[Rangers09]

3 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

Shouldn’t be 8 years. Fuck that. Just sayin. I predict they will settle in the middle eventually. 

 

I'm certainly not normally allied to the union side, but even I agree with you that 8-yrs is  counter-productive. Personally, I believe it should be 4 or 5 tiers, depending on the training and experience levels required by the job.

 

Personally, I consider the tiers for a non-apprenticeship position is no different that the tiers for apprentices. Similar to apprentices, new employees are learning on the job and are often less productive. When I started as a Cadet (apprentice) I made peanuts, receiving a higher level each year. In my final year as a Cadet, I still only made 60% of what I made when qualified, but was basically doing the same job, just didn't have a certificate to potentially lose. Took me just over 3 years, so we had 4 tiers.

[akirby]

23 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Agree. The starting wage though has become uncompetitive, in many locations. So a boost in that rate is needed. A 4 year grow in makes sense. Being qualified on more jobs on the line would be something I would like to see if I were a 1st line supervisor.

If the starting pay isn’t competitive then why are people signing on?  That’s the measure of whether a job is competitive and if it’s too low and they can’t get workers they have to increase it.  That’s why some fast food places were offering signing bonuses and higher pay in certain areas.

[Maislebandit]

11 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im just starting the apprenticeship program right now (which is making this all that much more stressful) and I will say this, yes the skill set required today is completely different than what it was 25-30 years ago. PLCs in themselves is a specialty that takes a lot of time to navigate and master. At my building there’s technically a few different “classifications” if you can really call it that, it’s more just what department you’re in. That doesn’t make any difference in pay, we all make the same thing. 
 

Votes is kind of irrelevant, Trades and production vote on the contracts separately. 2015 I believe it was FCA that had their trades vote down their contract but it was somehow overruled by UAW international. I’m not entirely sure how and why that happened. 

Congratulations and good luck on your journey. These times certainly do add to the stress of your situation. 
On the bright side however, if the contract results in any kind of layoffs they usually follow the 10:1 journeyman to apprentice ratio, so it may afford you some protection and seeing that you just came on that may allow you to weather the storm. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, paintguy said:

Agree. The starting wage though has become uncompetitive, in many locations. So a boost in that rate is needed. A 4 year grow in makes sense. Being qualified on more jobs on the line would be something I would like to see if I were a 1st line supervisor.

That would take a massive change in operating agreements at the individual plants. As it currently is unless you’re a team leader, utility worker or in the pool (read: extra) you’re on one job into perpetuity unless you bid into a different department. 

[Maislebandit]

49 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:

 

I'm certainly not normally allied to the union side, but even I agree with you that 8-yrs is  counter-productive. Personally, I believe it should be 4 or 5 tiers, depending on the training and experience levels required by the job.

 

Personally, I consider the tiers for a non-apprenticeship position is no different that the tiers for apprentices. Similar to apprentices, new employees are learning on the job and are often less productive. When I started as a Cadet (apprentice) I made peanuts, receiving a higher level each year. In my final year as a Cadet, I still only made 60% of what I made when qualified, but was basically doing the same job, just didn't have a certificate to potentially lose. Took me just over 3 years, so we had 4 tiers.

There is a fundamental difference between apprentices and in progression production and that’s the safety factor. 
Apprentices are never to be used as manpower and only work independently in rare circumstances and even then it’s a judgement call by a journeyman who they are working under. 

[Rangers09]

3 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

 The healthcare component is substantially cheaper for any company as it is usually a supplement plan that covers Prescriptions, Therapy, etc which might be $1,800 a year. Figure an additional $22,000-$25,000 for US healthcare cost. 

 

Without knowing the terms of an employer's collective agreement, or the benefit package for Exempt employees, it is impossible to guess at the cost of the extended health package, due to the number of variables. An ultra basic plan, for a single person without employer or retirement benefits, with minimal coverage and large deductibles is around $1,200 per year. Our retirement benefits are probably over $3,000/yr, and prior to retirement, my exempt benefits were considerably higher.

 

This isn't the first time you have painted a bleak picture of life in Canada, can't speak for your family, but rest assured millions of us survive and even prosper, before attaining our multiple pensions in retirement. Yes, house prices in the suburbs (Vancouver & Toronto) may be over $1 Million, but they are still being purchased faster than they can build them. If the average working couple can qualify and afford a million dollar mortgage, I'll suggest life may not be as bleak as you believe north of the border. I believe our mortgage qualification rules are significantly more demanding than the US, so qualifying is often more challenging than actually being able to afford a mortgage.

[fuzzymoomoo]

58 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:

tiers for apprentices

This is not a thing. Nobody has ever said it’s a thing so stop this nonsense. The whole point of an apprenticeship is to learn the trade. It would be ridiculous for me to expect to make as much as the journeyman I’m working with. And by that same token, any journeyman stupid enough to put a brand new apprentice into a 480 panel alone should be fired immediately for being reckless. 

[Rangers09]

1 hour ago, Maislebandit said:

There is a fundamental difference between apprentices and in progression production and that’s the safety factor. 
Apprentices are never to be used as manpower and only work independently in rare circumstances and even then it’s a judgement call by a journeyman who they are working under. 

 

Yes, I have read the text books as well, and am well versed how apprentice programs are meant to work.

 

I also completed an apprenticeship, and have trained well over one hundred of them over 35 years, so am quite proficient in how it works in practice. While I haven't worked in the US, as my experience is UK, Canada and other parts of the World, I doubt, many US programs are much different to my experience.

[Oac98]

Well it’s  looking like Unifor Ford walks at 11:59pm tonight. OAC minimal to no impact. Windsor operations Mustang and Super Duty engines so we know that will impact production soon at Kentucky and Flat Rock. 

[Bob Rosadini]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

If the starting pay isn’t competitive then why are people signing on?  That’s the measure of whether a job is competitive and if it’s too low and they can’t get workers they have to increase it.  That’s why some fast food places were offering signing bonuses and higher pay in certain areas.

Bingo. As long as people are walking into the employment office that is all the wage survey you need.

[Oac98]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

8 years might be too long but zero is stupid.  It means a person can walk in off the street and do the job just as well as someone who’s been there for 20 years.  If that’s the case why do I need to keep older employees?  

 

8 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

This is not a thing. Nobody has ever said it’s a thing so stop this nonsense. The whole point of an apprenticeship is to learn the trade. It would be ridiculous for me to expect to make as much as the journeyman I’m working with. And by that same token, any journeyman stupid enough to put a brand new apprentice into a 480 panel alone should be fired immediately for being reckless. 

Unifor deadline extended now til 11:59 pm Tuesday. People are pissed the fuck off. We were told to stay on our jobs past the deadline tonight. Chassis a trim went 6.7 we thought we were gonna strike. Unifor said they were far apart from Ford on an autotalks.ca update at 7:30pm. Then all of a sudden ford put a new proposal on the table just before deadline and BOOM extension. Just letting you know the deal up here as you are a ford worker.

[fuzzymoomoo]

3 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

 People are pissed the fuck off. 

So they’re being unreasonable, got it. 
 

Why be mad if the company is willing to bargain? 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

So they’re being unreasonable, got it. 
 

Why be mad if the company is willing to bargain? 

 

Couldn't that be said the same about the UAW? No they chose to strike instead. 

[Oac98]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

So they’re being unreasonable, got it. 
 

Why be mad if the company is willing to bargain? 

People believe the union leadership is weak that’s why. 11:59pm was the deadline the expectation was to walk at midnight. We were told Unifor was presented with a substantive offer so we will just have to wait and see how this plays out cause we know nothing in terms of information. The talk of the town is how the UAW is putting all the information out there while our union is keeping us in the dark. We all know traditionally bargaining is kept private anyways. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Couldn't that be said the same about the UAW? No they chose to strike instead. 

I’ve never claimed anything to the contrary. I’ve said from day one I have my doubts about the strategy. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

20 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

People believe the union leadership is weak that’s why. 11:59pm was the deadline the expectation was to walk at midnight. We were told Unifor was presented with a substantive offer so we will just have to wait and see how this plays out cause we know nothing in terms of information. The talk of the town is how the UAW is putting all the information out there while our union is keeping us in the dark. We all know traditionally bargaining is kept private anyways. 

None of it matters if the agreement ends up being good but I guess it’s too much to expect patience from the majority anymore. 

[Oac98]

38 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

None of it matters if the agreement ends up being good but I guess it’s too much to expect patience from the majority anymore. 

The sentiment is the union is weak and we’re supposed to strike. Until the terms are laid out on the table we won’t know. Even if the agreement is good people will bitch about it LOL. 

[Bob Rosadini]

Wow,  Reading all these posts on apprenticeships, classifications, it sounds like over the years the negotiating process has created a paper nightmare.

And if "crafts" have a separate vote that can keep a plant "out"?  That is delay a settlement???

 

Sounds like the Federal govt.  The Federal register just grows and grows as the idiots in Congress have to "pass legislation" with their name on it or they are not making their "mark".  I've always thought.."pass a bill that has 50 pages and you have to eliminate 50 pages.

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I’ve never claimed anything to the contrary. I’ve said from day one I have my doubts about the strategy. 

 

I wasn't calling you out on that, just saying it

 

[T-dubz]

4 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

People believe the union leadership is weak that’s why. 11:59pm was the deadline the expectation was to walk at midnight. We were told Unifor was presented with a substantive offer so we will just have to wait and see how this plays out cause we know nothing in terms of information. The talk of the town is how the UAW is putting all the information out there while our union is keeping us in the dark. We all know traditionally bargaining is kept private anyways. 

I don’t know, I think I would prefer the way unifor is negotiating personally. When you throw out crazy numbers like 46% raises, that does not help to get the public on your side. If anything, it makes the public think you are crazy. If the uaw’s main talking point was that it takes 8 years to get to the top tier, I think the public would be a bit more sympathetic. Everyone can relate to not getting raises for a long period of time and would surely back that cause, but no one can relate to 46% increases. 

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

I don’t know, I think I would prefer the way unifor is negotiating personally. When you throw out crazy numbers like 46% raises, that does not help to get the public on your side. If anything, it makes the public think you are crazy. If the uaw’s main talking point was that it takes 8 years to get to the top tier, I think the public would be a bit more sympathetic. Everyone can relate to not getting raises for a long period of time and would surely back that cause, but no one can relate to 46% increases. 

When I first seen 46 percent I said ain’t gonna happen. Were already viewed as overpaid button pushers so that didn’t help the 46 percent demand. It’s all bargaining and maybe you’re right in regards to the grow in and public sentiment. A lot of the workforce at my plant are liking the uaw public details approach. Unifor will as they say chart their own course. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

2 hours ago, T-dubz said:

I don’t know, I think I would prefer the way unifor is negotiating personally. When you throw out crazy numbers like 46% raises, that does not help to get the public on your side. If anything, it makes the public think you are crazy. If the uaw’s main talking point was that it takes 8 years to get to the top tier, I think the public would be a bit more sympathetic. Everyone can relate to not getting raises for a long period of time and would surely back that cause, but no one can relate to 46% increases. 

the longer this goes on, the less I like it. There’s no amount of selling to the membership that is going to get a contract any less than what was publicly demanded ratified now. I fear we’re screwed.