UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[fuzzymoomoo]

23 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

Fuzzy,

   Do you think there's a possibility of Fain & Co "rotating the pain", and allowing MAP to go back to work, but then close one of the F-150 plants?  This way, more of the Membership shares in the sacrifices.

 

HRG

Absolutely not. 

[Oac98]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:09 PM, ice-capades said:

 

Thanks for your feedback! Nothing would please me more than seeing Ford produce vehicles at Oakville that will fully utilize the plant's potential. Even better would be to see Ford expand its production in Canada at either Oakville or an additional site. Unfortunately, if the Unifor contracts are similar to whatever the next UAW contract terms are, additional production capacity in Canada may be cost prohibitive. If so, Ford's best option is expanding future production in Mexico considering lower costs overall including trade agreements. 

No problem! Only time will tell if anymore product beyond the two BEVs that are promised join the line up at OAC. Ford demolished the old Ford Talbotville St Thomas Assembly Plant so I can’t see them building a greenfield vehicle assembly plant ever in Canada. Oakville expansion is even a long shot. Mexico or elsewhere is what i think is the more possible scenario. The UAW already has a better contract than us and they haven’t even  reached a tentative agreement yet so they may be similar but uaw contract I believe will be more COSTLY. 

[hllywd]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

Bill Ford’s relationship with the UAW started long before Fain and will last long after.  He’s just digging himself a hole that he’s not going to get out of.

I hope that's true. Where Farley and Fain have been publicly sparring, I thought that Junior came across as the elder statesman; a voice of calm and reason. He said he never considers his employees as the enemy. And knucklehead Fain, on cue, responded immediately that the days of Ford/UAW being friends are over, and that it's all autoworkers against corporate greed. That's why I feel he's more concerned with (attempting to) organizing Tesla and the transplants than he is with trying to reach an agreement. While he said he's received hundreds of calls I'm not sure he can read the room. There has always been SOME interest in unionizing southern plants, but never enough to pass a vote.

[Oac98]

5 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

This is so off-base......

 

For the record, the ONLY reason the F-150 is even built at the Rouge is because of Bill Ford.  I was one of the managers of that '09-14 F-150 program and when that program started we closed Norfolk and were looking for another place to build it.  Tere were other lower-cost options - including some non-UAW facilities.  (Namely Mexico.)    Bill Ford said no way.  They decided to pay a lot more money to make it work in Dearborn.  

 

I keep thinking of those moments during this strike and part of me wishes they'd shut them all down and go non-union across the board.  Would be better for the company in the long run.  

 

There have also been proposals over the years to even relocate the HQ out of the country. (Like Eaton when they "moved" to Ireland.)  But again, the Ford's won't let it happen even though they know it would be better financially in the long run.    

It’s the built in American perception move which I believe was a good move. Obviously if they were built in Mexico they would’ve been cheaper. Big marketing ploy from Ford in terms of more American built vehicles to draw in consumers which wasn’t stupid. This strike has gotten ugly and now the way they do business in the future is probably under review more than ever.

[hllywd]

5 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

This is so off-base......

 

For the record, the ONLY reason the F-150 is even built at the Rouge is because of Bill Ford.  I was one of the managers of that '09-14 F-150 program and when that program started we closed Norfolk and were looking for another place to build it.  Tere were other lower-cost options - including some non-UAW facilities.  (Namely Mexico.)    Bill Ford said no way.  They decided to pay a lot more money to make it work in Dearborn.  

 

I keep thinking of those moments during this strike and part of me wishes they'd shut them all down and go non-union across the board.  Would be better for the company in the long run.  

 

There have also been proposals over the years to even relocate the HQ out of the country. (Like Eaton when they "moved" to Ireland.)  But again, the Ford's won't let it happen even though they know it would be better financially in the long run.    

History like this needs to be relayed in the media. There are too many from the participation trophy generation that aren't aware of situations like this. And the hardliners won't care anyway. But I think the silent majority would be swayed if they had all the facts.

[Oac98]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The question is how long regular UAW members can tolerate remaining on strike and subsisting on $500/week, I wonder how many of them were originally convinced that this would all over by now. It’s going to get harder as we get into November and December…..

Maybe again should start paying the strikers 1000 dollars a week. He himself I’m sure isn’t financially hurting from this now too long and stupid strike. Ya even I’m saying it’s stupid now they have a good deal on the damn table. 

[Oac98]

On 10/21/2023 at 4:48 PM, jpd80 said:

All I’m thinking is that the belligerence of the UAW insisting on 36%-40% pay rise might force Ford to do something radical like moving key production out of harms way. If push comes to shove, Oakville being a large facility would definitely  be one plant looked at for large vehicle production.
 

That’s kind of a doomsday perspective but Ford’s moves to condense its production  and improve profits has made it vulnerable to strike action……it’s like Ford forgot all about that because the UAW played nice for so many years.

 

The government money was for BEVs. What large vehicle would move to Oakville unless is was some existing ICE vehicle. We kind of already know this will not happen we’re just playing devils advocate worse case scenario here. We all know these moves aren’t overnight. OAC is green and red tagged all over the place right now. Green for remove red for keep on piping and machinery etc etc. They already have their planning and blueprints in place. Retool kinda has begun in very early stages. When edge is down and they kick us out then major work begins. 

[hllywd]

2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Patience is getting thin amongst those who’ve been out the longest. The membership is certainly getting more and more divided the longer this goes on. 

I heard that because Fain didn't strike all of MAP that some employees have to cross the picket line to report to work. That can't be good for morale of those striking. Not to mention that it's getting ugly between people who want a quick resolution (who think the offer is more than fair) and the hardliners who say "We striking until WE GET EVERYTHING!"

 

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I thought so, these are ordinary folks that just want a good deal and to get back to work and earn a decent wage. Hopefully the message that people want this done ASAP filters back up the UAW hierarchy.

Fain acknowledged on Friday that he's heard and seen rumblings and impatience. He seems to think he has some mandate but only 11% voted and he only won by 0.4%. Many feel the offer is solid and want to vote. But too many think this is their "once in a generation" opportunity to make history. But I don't think that they're making the kind of history that they think they are. 
 

The participation trophy generation thinks all they have to do is show up and get paid. They are screaming the loudest about "We getting everything". When I tried explaining that, as a legacy employee, and therefore someone who currently has a pension, that I would be open to being bought out of my pension and transitioned to the new 401k offer on the table (because I'm divorced and can't leave my pension to my kids if I die but 401k can be), the response I received was "I want both!" The AOCs and Bernie Sanders of the works have convinced these brats that they're entitled to both. They have no clue how the "real world" works.

 

 And the hardliners see this as their opportunity to make their grandparents proud; the forefathers of the union that led the sit down strike and the battle of the overpass. But they aren't serious students of history and the world has changed. Back then, you had a choice between Ford, Chevy and Dodge. Their are way more options to choose from today and companies must remain competitive. 
 

In the end, Fain, the participation trophy generation and the hardliners may win some battles but I fear that they will lose all of us the war. As I said, I think the silent majority thinks the latest offer is more than fair and we just want to get back to work and return to some sense of normalcy. With that being said, there are many fractured relationships that are going to be difficult to navigate moving forward.

[fuzzymoomoo]

52 minutes ago, hllywd said:

I heard that because Fain didn't strike all of MAP that some employees have to cross the picket line to report to work. That can't be good for morale of those striking. Not to mention that it's getting ugly between people who want a quick resolution (who think the offer is more than fair) and the hardliners who say "We striking until WE GET EVERYTHING!

Not true. There is no picket line on the ISA side of the plant (Van Born and Cogswell entrances). Sucks for the people in north stamping though, they have a 20 minute walk to get to their department every day because they have to go through Stamping, Subs, and through the old tunnel to the north side. 
 

However the teamsters that work for Cintas are stupid and don’t understand our side doesn’t have a picket line to cross so I STILL haven’t gotten my uniforms yet ?. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[fuzzymoomoo]

54 minutes ago, hllywd said:

As I said, I think the silent majority thinks the latest offer is more than fair and we just want to get back to work and return to some sense of normalcy. 

I’ve yet to talk to anyone in person who thinks it’s not a contract worthy of at least voting on, but no we can’t have that because Mr. Big Ego president has to have everything. Worst thing that can happen is it gets voted down and things stay the way they are right now. Really makes me wonder who’s pulling his strings. 

[iamweasel]

2 hours ago, hllywd said:

History like this needs to be relayed in the media. There are too many from the participation trophy generation that aren't aware of situations like this. And the hardliners won't care anyway. But I think the silent majority would be swayed if they had all the facts.

 

I agree, but that's just not Ford's style.  He keeps these things to himself and doesn't let the PR folks talk about this stuff.   Doesn't want to seem like he's bragging I guess.    When I was on the F-150, we wanted to run commercials that showed tests of our (fully boxed) frame versus the swiss cheese wimpy frames on the Tunda/Titan but nope....can't talk bad about competitors in commercials.  

 

Look at the whole Detroit Central Station project.  Do people really think they couldn't get cheaper office space elsewhere as opposed to throwing a ridiculous amount of money at that building?   Of course not....they are spending a ton of money to do what he thinks is right for the city of Detroit.  

 

When it comes to making money, Bill Ford is not the best leader. He's too nice.  Some real hard decisions will have to be made at Ford some day (or should have been made already) but he's not going to be the one that makes them or allows certain things to happen.

[paintguy]

2 hours ago, hllywd said:

I hope that's true. Where Farley and Fain have been publicly sparring, I thought that Junior came across as the elder statesman; a voice of calm and reason. He said he never considers his employees as the enemy. And knucklehead Fain, on cue, responded immediately that the days of Ford/UAW being friends are over, and that it's all autoworkers against corporate greed. That's why I feel he's more concerned with (attempting to) organizing Tesla and the transplants than he is with trying to reach an agreement. While he said he's received hundreds of calls I'm not sure he can read the room. There has always been SOME interest in unionizing southern plants, but never enough to pass a vote.

Bill Ford always seemed the voice of reason when I worked for Ford. Not that he was always right, but he always seemed to care. Unfortunately on his watch the news hasn't always been good. Before Ford, I worked in chemical industry for companies with far less cordial relationships with unions. And when layoffs came, severance, or possibilities of a transfer were far less. Even when others  suspended pensions for salary workers, Ford continues to accrue benefits for those hired with those rules and expectation.  

As for Mr. Fain, big talk for a union which has not had a single success in organizing the transplant car companies, and most notably Tesla. Tesla is particularly troubling for the UAW as Fremont operated as a GM plant and NUMMI plant with UAW representation. With all the history of a long time union plant, UAW has been unable to gain traction. With this prolonged strike, more ammunition for companies resisting unionization. Mr. Fain seems on a mission to combat increases in CEO pay. Well, it is unreasonable, but automakers are in line with pay of similar sized American companies. This is analogous to the NFL pay where quarterback salaries have skyrocketed. Running Backs, formerly another valued position has not had the same increase as the game changed, reducing their value.

Finally, Mr. Fain also seems to be waging a war on capitalism. Now where else but the capitalist West do folks drive around in $50K vehicles that they own? 

[fuzzymoomoo]

21 minutes ago, iamweasel said:

 

I agree, but that's just not Ford's style.  He keeps these things to himself and doesn't let the PR folks talk about this stuff.   Doesn't want to seem like he's bragging I guess.    When I was on the F-150, we wanted to run commercials that showed tests of our (fully boxed) frame versus the swiss cheese wimpy frames on the Tunda/Titan but nope....can't talk bad about competitors in commercials.  

 

Look at the whole Detroit Central Station project.  Do people really think they couldn't get cheaper office space elsewhere as opposed to throwing a ridiculous amount of money at that building?   Of course not....they are spending a ton of money to do what he thinks is right for the city of Detroit.  

 

When it comes to making money, Bill Ford is not the best leader. He's too nice.  Some real hard decisions will have to be made at Ford some day (or should have been made already) but he's not going to be the one that makes them or allows certain things to happen.

This is kind of the impression I’ve gotten over the years as well. I think it’s why certain parts of the business haven’t had cuts as deep as they need to be. 

[Bob Rosadini]

15 minutes ago, paintguy said:

Bill Ford always seemed the voice of reason when I worked for Ford. Not that he was always right, but he always seemed to care. Unfortunately on his watch the news hasn't always been good. Before Ford, I worked in chemical industry for companies with far less cordial relationships with unions. And when layoffs came, severance, or possibilities of a transfer were far less. Even when others  suspended pensions for salary workers, Ford continues to accrue benefits for those hired with those rules and expectation.  

As for Mr. Fain, big talk for a union which has not had a single success in organizing the transplant car companies, and most notably Tesla. Tesla is particularly troubling for the UAW as Fremont operated as a GM plant and NUMMI plant with UAW representation. With all the history of a long time union plant, UAW has been unable to gain traction. With this prolonged strike, more ammunition for companies resisting unionization. Mr. Fain seems on a mission to combat increases in CEO pay. Well, it is unreasonable, but automakers are in line with pay of similar sized American companies. This is analogous to the NFL pay where quarterback salaries have skyrocketed. Running Backs, formerly another valued position has not had the same increase as the game changed, reducing their value.

Finally, Mr. Fain also seems to be waging a war on capitalism. Now where else but the capitalist West do folks drive around in $50K vehicles that they own? 

He is.  Again,not sure on name but he hired some guy on his staff who is an absolute socialist.  Shows you  where Fain's head is......actually bad statement, can't be in two places at once?

[2005Explorer]

It would seem to me that if the UAW gets a contract that’s not sustainable over the long term by the automakers they’d be better off just expanding production in Mexico. I’m all for the workers making more and keeping up with inflation, but at some point if the labor cost doesn’t allow the manufacturers to be competitive with non-union companies we’ll definitely see more models switch to Mexican production.

[jasonj80]

22 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

It would seem to me that if the UAW gets a contract that’s not sustainable over the long term by the automakers they’d be better off just expanding production in Mexico. I’m all for the workers making more and keeping up with inflation, but at some point if the labor cost doesn’t allow the manufacturers to be competitive with non-union companies we’ll definitely see more models switch to Mexican production.

The issue is Fain doesn’t give a S*** about the workers or the long term health of the companies. He cares about causing the companies extreme pain (UAWs words in the leaked emails) if they go bankrupt he doesn’t care. “It’s their greedy fault they didn’t treat workers better that’s why it happened.” “Poor money management skills” 

It is why if some plant were to turn in the 30% of signatures at the plant to decertify it would throw everything in disarray for what the UAW has planned. 
 

Maybe after Ford and GM earnings this week they will see the pain they’re caused and be happy? (Not really sure why this is a good thing) I however can say I will not buy a UAW made product for a long time if ever. 
 

Now one of my best friends has a complete other take on this strike.  His comment is -  Always remember the UAW is an arm of the Democratic Party and this is their move for 2024 - they are pulling the strings behind the doors telling him what to do and want the recession. It is a big election year next year  - workers rights and the right to unionize and get these votes to the polls and have votes at the non- plants - look at all the gains I got the other workers !(never mind you won’t have a job in a bit because it will move to Mexico) The UAW gives tens of millions to democratic candidates and the candidates do what the UAW tells them and the UAW does what the Democratic Party tells them to do. Plus with the recession winding down people might be doing slightly better and will vote for Biden for reelection. 

 

 

 

[lcseds]

 This is the first time I have actually paid attention to a UAW strike, it's demands, it's impact on suppliers etc. I'm 63 so I've been around the block with jobs/career/personal finance etc. I am really a bit shocked at the mob mentality I am seeing with this strike. I find it alarming really. I could go on and on about some of the ridiculousness, but probably everyone here already knows it. This is not about a fair contract, it's about a fat contract that might have far reaching implications they want to ignore now. What's with the "Eat the Rich" sh*t anyway.

 

 The sense of entitlement here is almost beyond my comprehension. I have a Superduty on order to tow my camper. When I am done with that in a few years, there is not way I will buy another vehicle the UAW has anything to do with. I'm sure none of the UAW workers care about my plan, and in most cases insults would be hurled at me, but there is a snowball effect that could make them care at some point. To me, and my opinion, many of the workers are in a bubble outside the normal working class, even though they claim to be a part of it. Amazing stuff. Hope they get back to work very soon for the sake of the families negatively affected, not for the union. I may get trashed over this post, but I'm okay with the name calling and insults I get posting elsewhere.

Edited October 24, 2023 by lcseds

[mackinaw]

2 hours ago, iamweasel said:

When it comes to making money, Bill Ford is not the best leader. He's too nice.  Some real hard decisions will have to be made at Ford some day (or should have been made already) but he's not going to be the one that makes them or allows certain things to happen.

 

I think Bill Ford would agree with you.  That's why he stepped down as CEO back in 2006 and hired Alan Mulally to run the company.

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, jasonj80 said:

Plus with the recession winding down people might be doing slightly better and will vote for Biden for reelection. 

 

The longer this strike goes on, with more and more people being laid off, and more suppliers shutting down, the risk of a recession will only increase.  

[hllywd]

3 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

Always remember the UAW is an arm of the Democratic Party and this is their move for 2024 - they are pulling the strings behind the doors telling him what to do and want the recession. It is a big election year next year  - workers rights and the right to unionize and get these votes to the polls and have votes at the non- plants - look at all the gains I got the other workers !(never mind you won’t have a job in a bit because it will move to Mexico) The UAW gives tens of millions to democratic candidates and the candidates do what the UAW tells them and the UAW does what the Democratic Party tells them to do. Plus with the recession winding down people might be doing slightly better and will vote for Biden for reelection. 

That's idiotic! First off, the democrats are the ones pushing mandatory EVs...which only have a niche market, not to mention the infrastructure doesn't exist. Last summer CA asked citizens not to charge their vehicles because with all the A/C running due to heatwave they were already facing rolling brown outs. Additionally, it's already been discussed ad nauseum that EVs require significantly less labor to assemble. So the union is supporting politicians who are killing our jobs. We saw this with Obama; the union overwhelmingly supported Obama, who sent work to Mexico and said manufacturing jobs would never come back to America. Furthermore, if the recession lasts until election time then it's likely the existing party in power gets voted out. Should that happen the EV mandate disappears. I wonder if that's part of the reason that the companies are hedging on going all in on EVs? The union sure seems to be engaging in self-defeating behaviors. They're more concerned with PR and organizing new union members and they fail to recognize the very real possibility of their actions causing union jobs to disappear... possibly forever.

[silvrsvt]

6 hours ago, hllywd said:

That's idiotic! First off, the democrats are the ones pushing mandatory EVs...which only have a niche market, not to mention the infrastructure doesn't exist. Last summer CA asked citizens not to charge their vehicles because with all the A/C running due to heatwave they were already facing rolling brown outs.

 

 

And people wonder why EV's have become politicalized...add in some ignorance with some blatant misinformation from different groups and this why we are at where we are. This same exact shit would be happening back in the 1970s with the Clean Air Act and CAFE if social media existed back then. 

 

EVs are coming but they won't see a big impact in the market till later this decade-which the infrastructure should be far better built out between now and then. 

[hllywd]

Did GM Arlington just walk out? Seeing rumblings but not widely reported.

[ice-capades]

14 minutes ago, hllywd said:

Did GM Arlington just walk out? Seeing rumblings but not widely reported.

 

Yes.

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2023/10/24/uaw-strike-gm-arlington-assembly-plant-texas/71299127007/

[rperez817]

44 minutes ago, hllywd said:

Did GM Arlington just walk out? Seeing rumblings but not widely reported.

 

Yup, UAW confirmed it about a half hour ago. BREAKING: Another 5,000 Autoworkers Join the UAW’s Stand Up Strike at GM’s Largest Plant | UAW

[fuzzymoomoo]

Ugh enough already