UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike

[grbeck]

10 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that but these corporations need to give us workers our fair share! 

 

I understand that everyone is under financial stress with recent inflationary trends, but losing market share isn't going to ultimately benefit anyone who works for GM, Ford or Stellantis - union or management. 

[akirby]

14 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that but these corporations need to give us workers our fair share! 

Well that’s the rub - what is a fair share?  Generally speaking regular employees are only entitled to fair pay for the job performed regardless of company performance (although obviously you can have bonuses tied to company performance as part of that compensation).  Ultimately the market determines what a job is worth based on supply and demand.  Anything above that has to come from somewhere else or the company can’t compete.

 

We don’t need to debate this here.  Just saying it’s not as simple as give us more because the company made $10B last year.  If the company lost money would you work for free?

[Oac98]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

Well that’s the rub - what is a fair share?  Generally speaking regular employees are only entitled to fair pay for the job performed regardless of company performance (although obviously you can have bonuses tied to company performance as part of that compensation).  Ultimately the market determines what a job is worth based on supply and demand.  Anything above that has to come from somewhere else or the company can’t compete.

 

We don’t need to debate this here.  Just saying it’s not as simple as give us more because the company made $10B last year.  If the company lost money would you work for free?

The company lost billions before and UAW and then CAW had to give loads of concessions. I would not work for free and I know it’s more complex and no need to debate. I’m realistic that not all of the demands that are being presented will fly. I for one want a raise and believe it’s deserved. I believe lower tier employees need better benefits pensions less of a grow in. Will it all happen???? Probably not. I also want to hear from Ford more about what’s going on at my plant with the lame duck edge rumored now to be extended til May 2024. We don’t even have a name of product or nothing then I gotta listen to Jim Farley talking about PHEV. Anyways enough I getting long winded lol.

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

The company lost billions before and UAW and then CAW had to give loads of concessions. I would not work for free and I know it’s more complex and no need to debate. I’m realistic that not all of the demands that are being presented will fly. I for one want a raise and believe it’s deserved. I believe lower tier employees need better benefits pensions less of a grow in. Will it all happen???? Probably not. I also want to hear from Ford more about what’s going on at my plant with the lame duck edge rumored now to be extended til May 2024. We don’t even have a name of product or nothing then I gotta listen to Jim Farley talking about PHEV. Anyways enough I getting long winded lol.

Everyone deserves raises for inflation.  At least an extra 10% right off the bat.

 

Given the rise in health care costs the last decade it’s not reasonable to expect free coverage with almost no deductible or co pays AND higher than market wages.  Something has to give to keep labor costs competitive.

 

I think the union needs to concede employees sharing more health care costs in exchange for pay raises for inflation and unionizing BOC but I think BOC will require some type of reduced labor costs to compete in the BEV market.

[Oac98]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

Everyone deserves raises for inflation.  At least an extra 10% right off the bat.

 

Given the rise in health care costs the last decade it’s not reasonable to expect free coverage with almost no deductible or co pays AND higher than market wages.  Something has to give to keep labor costs competitive.

 

I think the union needs to concede employees sharing more health care costs in exchange for pay raises for inflation and unionizing BOC but I think BOC will require some type of reduced labor costs to compete in the BEV market.

People want the deductible GONE believe me but I don’t think it will. In the good old days I used to pay 35 cents Canadian for majority of medications. The UAW will certainly be pushing to union BOC but like you said ford is gonna want stuff from the unions as well so it’s gonna be interesting. 

[akirby]

3 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

People want the deductible GONE believe me but I don’t think it will. In the good old days I used to pay 35 cents Canadian for majority of medications. The UAW will certainly be pushing to union BOC but like you said ford is gonna want stuff from the unions as well so it’s gonna be interesting. 

I don’t think the UAW has a deductible right now.  Even a small deductible and small co pays can drastically lower costs.  The company always factors health care costs into the overall compensation so lowering costs would prevent cuts in other areas or allow more increases in salary.

 

I have the cheapest plan at my company.  $100/month for 2 people with 20% copays and a $9k deductible.  There are plans with lower deductibles and copays but they cost $400-$800/month.  With the high deductible you’re allowed to use a health savings account which rolls over every year as opposed to the other kind that you have to use in year or lose it.  And the company gives me $2K/yr for the HSA which we’ve managed to build up the last 2 years with no hospital visits.

 

Health care is stupidly expensive.

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I don’t think the UAW has a deductible right now.  Even a small deductible and small co pays can drastically lower costs.  The company always factors health care costs into the overall compensation so lowering costs would prevent cuts in other areas or allow more increases in salary.

 

I have the cheapest plan at my company.  $100/month for 2 people with 20% copays and a $9k deductible.  There are plans with lower deductibles and copays but they cost $400-$800/month.  With the high deductible you’re allowed to use a health savings account which rolls over every year as opposed to the other kind that you have to use in year or lose it.  And the company gives me $2K/yr for the HSA which we’ve managed to build up the last 2 years with no hospital visits.

 

Health care is stupidly expensive.

We have a few different options for healthcare plans. The one I’m on is $20 copays for primary care visits, $50 for urgent care and $100 for ER/hospital visits. I’m not sure what the deductible is, I’ve never come close to whatever it is. I can tell you having 3 kids cost us nothing for prenatal care. 

[Oac98]

54 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

We have a few different options for healthcare plans. The one I’m on is $20 copays for primary care visits, $50 for urgent care and $100 for ER/hospital visits. I’m not sure what the deductible is, I’ve never come close to whatever it is. I can tell you having 3 kids cost us nothing for prenatal care. 

Kinda sounds like uaw and American healthcare is way more expensive than in Canada. We do pay 97.20 CAD deductible quarterly here. I don’t even know all the costs for other healthcare items in our collective bargaining agreement off the top of my head.

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

Kinda sounds like uaw and American healthcare is way more expensive than in Canada. We do pay 97.20 CAD deductible quarterly here. I don’t even know all the costs for other healthcare items in our collective bargaining agreement off the top of my head.

You guys also have socialized medicine that will never happen here as well. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

We have a few different options for healthcare plans. The one I’m on is $20 copays for primary care visits, $50 for urgent care and $100 for ER/hospital visits. I’m not sure what the deductible is, I’ve never come close to whatever it is. I can tell you having 3 kids cost us nothing for prenatal care. 

But on most plans the copays only kick in after you meet the deductible.  I have a 20% copay for most things but if I have a $2k ER bill I have to pay the $2K in full plus another $7k before the copays kick in.

 

What you have is a premium plan with essentially no deductible just copays.  Is there a monthly charge?

[fuzzymoomoo]

20 minutes ago, akirby said:

Is there a monthly charge?

For regular healthcare, no. Just optional life which I opted in for and that’s only around $10/mo for the coverage I chose. 

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

You guys also have socialized medicine that will never happen here as well. 

Yep I’m fully aware of that as it seems many people are opposed to it down there as far as I know. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

53 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Yep I’m fully aware of that as it seems many people are opposed to it down there as far as I know. 

We tried a bastardized form of it with Obamacare and that turned into an absolute shit show. 

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

We tried a bastardized form of it with Obamacare and that turned into an absolute shit show. 

Commonwealth countries are the best for healthcare mate, you have no idea how much you’re missing out on.

While Canada outlaws any private medical insurance, Australia has a nice mix of government public health and private medical insurance so a heart attack doesn’t leave you with a bill for $40,000.

No ambulance bills, no ER costs and the best immediate treatment available.

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by jpd80

[akirby]

27 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Commonwealth countries are the best for healthcare mate, you have no idea how much you’re missing out on.

While Canada outlaws any private medical insurance, Australia has a nice mix of government public health and private medical insurance so a heart attack doesn’t leave you with a bill for $40,000.

No ambulance bills, no ER costs and the best immediate treatment available.

 

I’ve always said let private insurance cover the first $10k and elective procedures and let govt cover anything over $10k and all emergency care.  That would drastically lower premiums if private insurance has a $10k limit.

 

It also prevents an individual getting stuck with a huge hospital bill.

Edited August 11, 2023 by akirby

[jpd80]

7 minutes ago, akirby said:

I’ve always said let private insurance cover the first $10k and elective procedures and let govt cover anything over $10k and all emergency care.  That would drastically lower premiums if private insurance has a $10k limit

Absolutely, governments should provide a “safety net” while most citizens have at least basic insurance for hospital cover, so they avoid things like waiting lists for elective surgery. Canada and UK seem to cover the lot with national health systems, that gets expensive for those programs.

Edited August 11, 2023 by jpd80

[cecilmeyer]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:48 PM, Captainp4 said:

49 an hour to work an assembly line is insane to me. I'm going to sell my business and get a union job ?

Yeah go ahead and see what it is like to work like a slave on an assembly line in the heat. I did it it 25 years till I bid outnon a better job. 

[cecilmeyer]

On 8/11/2023 at 5:37 PM, jpd80 said:

Absolutely, governments should provide a “safety net” while most citizens have at least basic insurance for hospital cover, so they avoid things like waiting lists for elective surgery. Canada and UK seem to cover the lot with national health systems, that gets expensive for those programs.

How about we just put private insurance of of business? They are parasites that provide nothing .

[silvrsvt]

4 hours ago, cecilmeyer said:

Yeah go ahead and see what it is like to work like a slave on an assembly line in the heat. I did it it 25 years till I bid outnon a better job. 

 

Well maybe if you educated yourself better you could have gotten a better job, not everyone gets what they want without trying for it.

[akirby]

4 hours ago, cecilmeyer said:

Yeah go ahead and see what it is like to work like a slave on an assembly line in the heat. I did it it 25 years till I bid outnon a better job. 

Did they hold a gun to your head and force you to work there?

[Oac98]

On 8/11/2023 at 2:24 PM, fuzzymoomoo said:

We tried a bastardized form of it with Obamacare and that turned into an absolute shit show. 

Why was it a shit show??

[fuzzymoomoo]

5 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

Why was it a shit show??

Ho boy where do I begin? First off above all it didn’t lower the cost of anything and over time it ended up making things way more expensive. The marketplace website couldn’t stay online for more than 6 seconds because like government does it wasn’t prepared to handle the traffic. Most of those marketplaces run by the individual states ended up insolvent. There’s myriad examples of the whole “if you like your doctor you can keep it” thing being completely untrue. My personal doctor has told me stories of how much it’s complicated doing business on their end. I’m sure there’s more I’m forgetting but it’s 4am and I haven’t had any coffee yet lol. 

[akirby]

Also our experience with govt run healthcare is the Veterans Administration which does a great service to veterans but can be a huge shit show with long waits and delayed or mismanaged care.  I had first hand experience with that one via my dad.

[jasonj80]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Ho boy where do I begin? First off above all it didn’t lower the cost of anything and over time it ended up making things way more expensive. The marketplace website couldn’t stay online for more than 6 seconds because like government does it wasn’t prepared to handle the traffic. Most of those marketplaces run by the individual states ended up insolvent. There’s myriad examples of the whole “if you like your doctor you can keep it” thing being completely untrue. My personal doctor has told me stories of how much it’s complicated doing business on their end. I’m sure there’s more I’m forgetting but it’s 4am and I haven’t had any coffee yet lol. 

Always Coffee first Fuzzy!?  The fines were cheaper than actually getting insurance so the healthy pool was considerable smaller than proposed, the taxes that were to be paid on high tier plans (the plans UAW members get) got scrapped so there wasn't the revenue to offset the credits so it became considerably more expensive. Hospitals still can't refuse treatment so why have insurance if they will treat you in the ED anyways.

Also social systems are not "free" you pay for them everyday in considerably higher taxes, it is the reason when people come to the U.S. they buy everything they can fit and even take extra suitcases back home or American border cities are filled with Canadian license plates buying goods. Americans would have a real problem knowing it is extremely difficult to sue the Dr for malpractice and it isn't a jury trial when you do. It is before a board that determines if standard of care was followed and there isn't "pain and suffering payments". You can't sue drug companies only the government can (after all they are the ones that assume the costs for an issue). Everything is also basically an HMO, the option of PPO doesn't really exist; Americans that have great insurance plans would have major issues with that

 

Over a 1/3 of my family lives in Canada (including two Drs) who all say the system is at a breaking point. 20% of people in Canada right now do not have a primary care physician and are on a wait list for one. Canadian medical schools are graduating LESS students than the number retiring.  It is getting increasingly common in boarder cities now to send patients across the border to the US for treatment. Also @Oacjay98 I don't know how you make ends meet, even with a 10-20% raise between the million+ dollar home you have to buy or the outrageous rent, an interest rate that isn't locked in so you payment could be considerably higher in later years, the 20% down, the insane property taxes, the condo fees, the $6.50 a gallon fuel, the cost of car insurance, alcohol prices, even the insane cost of food. When I go to visit family in Canada even with the exchange rate of ~30% I cringe. My younger cousins that live in the Toronto know they will most likely never own home until their parents pass. 

That being said the US medial system is also heading for a major reckoning as well. Dr's are getting burned out at a staggering rate, hospitals are being run by people that have no business running them as they are focused on costs yet have complete bloated finance and use travel nurses as that's not a fixed cost and cost 3x the cost of a regular one. The people that have to file bankruptcy even when they have insurance. The people that have to become "poor" so they can quality for a state plan that covers everything and the looming lack of general family doctors because of the debt students need to take on they basically get forced to specialize so they can pay back the $200,000-$400,000 in debt they have.

To circle back to the UAW plan, I can't figure out the retirement medical they want? They created the VEBA for retirement medical before because UAW leadership saw the writing on the wall (which is what Tanked Ford's stock price because they issued shares to do it, when ford issued billion+ shares) Which is why retirees have medical now - had they not done that UAW GM/Chrysler retirees would not have medical like the salary side that lost it. The only thing Fain's rhetoric is going to do is make manufactures move even more jobs faster to Mexico and from the few UAW members I've talked too think he's doing more damage than good. It isn't 1974 labor costs aren't equal across the board at the end of the contract where 95% of the market all pays the same cost.

[akirby]

50 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

 It isn't 1974 labor costs aren't equal across the board at the end of the contract where 95% of the market all pays the same cost.

This is what a lot of folks don’t understand.  In the 70s it didn’t really matter what the mfrs paid the workers as long as it was the same at all 3 because there was no other competition.  So the union could extort much higher than market wages and other compensation.  But that’s no longer the case.