Ranger getting PHEV 2.3L

[silvrsvt]

So the question of the hour is will the 2.3L PHEV find its way into the Explorer and Bronco in North America. 

 

When is the 2024/5 Explorer getting shown off?

[jasonj80]

28 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

The issue is that the legitimate hybrid powertrains Toyota and Ford are using in pickup trucks are much better suited for regulatory compliance than for real world benefits to customers. Ford is better off focusing its efforts on bringing Ranger BEV to market sooner than Toyota does the same with Hilux or Tacoma BEV, rather than fielding a competitor to Tacoma i-FORCE MAX Hybrid or a future Hilux hybrid. 

 I get 4/5mpg better than my friends with 2.7 and 5.0L F-150's, If i drive streets that have 35mph-50mph speed limits with some lights I easily get 27/28. Once you learn how to drive it to maximize the hybrid it's easy to do much better than regular f150 in mileage. If all you do is highway driving there would be little difference.

[ice-capades]

19 hours ago, akirby said:

Serious question (and I don’t know the answer) - did Tacoma sales fall when Ranger came back?  Did Wrangler sales fall when Bronco came back?  Maybe Ranger and Bronco are the answer for buyers who don’t want a Tacoma or Wrangler as opposed to them being in direct competition for buyers?

 

I'm not sure we know what the real sales potential is for Bronco and/or Ranger. Even though Bronco still has unfulfilled retail demand, both Bronco and Ranger production has suffered due to commodity, supply chain and labor factors. Ranger has suffered due to production being skewed toward fulfilling the overwhelming demand for the Bronco. Unfortunately, we may not know what the sales potential is for either vehicle if they're sharing the same plant even if/when production is increased with additional shifts and labor. My other concern is Ford's priority to produce only vehicles with the highest profit potential. At some point, based on recent and current economic factors (Cost-of-Living, Interest Rates, Financing Costs, Etc.) there's going to be "push back" from the market that is less able to afford the vehicles that Ford wants to build. At the same time, the future outlook is dimmed when realizing that any future UAW contract is going to have a direct impact on vehicle pricing in response to the increased plant and labor costs as well as increased supply chain costs.   

[T-dubz]

I saw this was for the PHEV. Are there any plans for a regular hybrid too? I think ranger buyers would prefer the cheaper upfront costs of a hybrid over a phev. If I recall correctly, wasn’t there a story not to long ago saying most phev owners don’t even plug in their vehicles?

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

At some point, based on recent and current economic factors (Cost-of-Living, Interest Rates, Financing Costs, Etc.) there's going to be "push back" from the market that is less able to afford the vehicles that Ford wants to build. 

 

I'm really not sure what to make of it...people where paying 10K ADMs on Broncos without fail two years ago and the housing market is just insane-a house that was worth 200-300K a few years ago with a flip is worth over 500K now for something with less than 1000 sq ft house in a town I live next door to. 

 

Autos are the same thing-seems like there is no limit to pricing as long as the monthly payment is "affordable"....

 

Not sure if we are at the cliff yet when it comes to this stuff. 

[silvrsvt]

6 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

I saw this was for the PHEV. Are there any plans for a regular hybrid too? I think ranger buyers would prefer the cheaper upfront costs of a hybrid over a phev. If I recall correctly, wasn’t there a story not to long ago saying most phev owners don’t even plug in their vehicles?

 

The only difference is battery size and the ability to recharge it externally. 

 

Given the way that Ford is doing hybrids with powershift transmission, there won't be a non-plug in version, because it really doesn't make sense to offer it because the pricing wouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus having the power to run things is another selling point vs extra MPGs and extra power. 

[T-dubz]

16 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The only difference is battery size and the ability to recharge it externally. 

 

Given the way that Ford is doing hybrids with powershift transmission, there won't be a non-plug in version, because it really doesn't make sense to offer it because the pricing wouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus having the power to run things is another selling point vs extra MPGs and extra power. 

The f150 power boost is a full hybrid and it can still power tools. I would think a PHEV version would be much more expensive, at least that is how it’s previously been when ford or any automaker has offered both in a particular model.

[fuzzymoomoo]

On 9/18/2023 at 7:11 AM, akirby said:

I think Ranger Raptor has the performance angle covered already without the hybrid power boost.  I think 7.2kw pro power onboard is a more compelling use case.

Watch them not offer the 7.2kw on the Ranger to try to sway buyers into the F-150. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[akirby]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

 wasn’t there a story not to long ago saying most phev owners don’t even plug in their vehicles?

Fake news.  They weren’t seeing the fuel economy that was projected by the govt models as reported by fuelly.org.  So their incorrect conclusion was owners weren’t plugging in when the model itself was flawed and people were most likely driving longer trips which reduces the overall fuel economy in addition to small sample sizes and inherent bias of self reporting - none of which means mean they aren’t plugging in.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Given the way that Ford is doing hybrids with powershift transmission, there won't be a non-plug in version,

Huh?  F150 Powerboost and Explorer hybrid are not plug ins.  

[akirby]

I would consider a Ranger PHEV with a 6 ft bed.

[jasonj80]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I'm really not sure what to make of it...people where paying 10K ADMs on Broncos without fail two years ago and the housing market is just insane-a house that was worth 200-300K a few years ago with a flip is worth over 500K now for something with less than 1000 sq ft house in a town I live next door to. 

 

Autos are the same thing-seems like there is no limit to pricing as long as the monthly payment is "affordable"....

 

Not sure if we are at the cliff yet when it comes to this stuff. 

We have to be getting close with autos, the ADMs have all but evaporated on most models - yes they are listed at some dealers still but deals back right down when you say you’ll walk. You’re starting to seeing cut rate financing some rebates and incentives and lots of all manufacturers are starting to fill back in. 

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, akirby said:

Fake news.  They weren’t seeing the fuel economy that was projected by the govt models as reported by fuelly.org.  So their incorrect conclusion was owners weren’t plugging in when the model itself was flawed and people were most likely driving longer trips which reduces the overall fuel economy in addition to small sample sizes and inherent bias of self reporting - none of which means mean they aren’t plugging in.

 

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf

 

Actual executive summary:

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

 

Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) have the potential to reduce emissions from light-duty vehicles and help ease the transition to fully electric, zero tailpipe-emission vehicles. Though PHEVs store less energy in their battery packs than fully electric vehicles, PHEVs can be designed with enough energy storage to cover most daily trips in the United States. As long as such vehicles begin with a full, or nearly full charge every day, they have the capacity to significantly reduce fossil fuel consumption. Spurred by recent investigations into the real-world performance of PHEVs in Europe and China, this study examines the current state of PHEV usage in the United States. Previous research and data from early adopters of PHEVs in the United States demonstrated that PHEVs achieved real-world electric drive share close to that expected by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

 

In this study, we present an analysis of more recent data from two previously unexplored sources: self-reported fuel consumption from Fuelly.com and engine-off distance traveled collected by the California Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR). These new data cover a broader variety of PHEV models and newer model years than prior datasets. Unlike prior datasets, both Fuelly and BAR are actively growing. While Fuelly data are voluntarily reported, the data are collected for the benefit of site users, not for research, and are not limited to specific vehicle models. Additionally, the BAR data presents the first widespread, automatic direct measurement of real-world electric drive share in the United States.

 

So they discovered that people aren't using the plug in part of the hybrid as much as they "should" be doing. 

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I'm really not sure what to make of it...people where paying 10K ADMs on Broncos without fail two years ago and the housing market is just insane-a house that was worth 200-300K a few years ago with a flip is worth over 500K now for something with less than 1000 sq ft house in a town I live next door to. 

 

Autos are the same thing-seems like there is no limit to pricing as long as the monthly payment is "affordable"....

 

Not sure if we are at the cliff yet when it comes to this stuff. 

 

Agreed. Yes, there's still a lot of people paying ADM's and the real estate market is still stronger than it was a few years ago with people paying more than the listed prices but it varies depending on the market. In Las Vegas, rental rates have dropped 12% since last year and the foreclosure rate for property owners has risen dramatically. It's just hard to understand where all this money is coming from and what the real long-term cost will be when all of a sudden the monthly payments are no longer affordable. 

[silvrsvt]

5 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

We have to be getting close with autos, the ADMs have all but evaporated on most models - yes they are listed at some dealers still but deals back right down when you say you’ll walk. You’re starting to seeing cut rate financing some rebates and incentives and lots of all manufacturers are starting to fill back in. 

 

Yes, but using the Bronco as the poster child-Ford has raised prices on it for the past two model years. My Big Bend V6 vs a 2024 Big Bend (give up the V6 for vinyl seats and 12in display) is $50,645 vs $48K for 2022...and other models have seen a more significant increase in price, which IMO is Ford taking the ADMs instead of the dealerships. 

A friend of mine just got a Wrangler Sahara 4XE that was pretty well loaded for $58K that was $70K(!) pre-incentives

[silvrsvt]

14 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

It's just hard to understand where all this money is coming from and what the real long-term cost will be when all of a sudden the monthly payments are no longer affordable. 

 

I agree with you on that-many people are moving out of the NYC metro area into my area of NJ (well this has been happening over 40 years now) but I just wonder where are these people who are buying the houses in NY getting money to pay for them so these people can relocate?!

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf

 

Actual executive summary:
 

 

 

So they discovered that people aren't using the plug in part of the hybrid as much as they "should" be doing. 

I read the entire document.  They only ended up looking at 5000 PHEV vehicles and only 1500 came from BAR.  And their conclusion was that the ePA estimates were way off based solely on fuel consumption as the measurement.  Nowhere did they conclude the PHEV drivers weren’t plugging in.  That’s an assumption based on the observed fuel economy, but consider this:

20 mile battery range, 30 mpg after battery is depleted

 

If I charge every night and I drive 30 miles per day my EV mode usage is 100% and used 0.33 gallons of fuel or 90 mpg

 

If I charge every night but drive 300 miles per day my EV mode usage is 10% and used 9.33 gallons of fuel or 32 mpg.
 

In both cases I plugged in and used the maximum EV range but the fuel economy is drastically different.

Edited September 19, 2023 by akirby

[rmc523]

15 hours ago, Rick73 said:

2024 Tacoma with 2.4L Turbo Hybrid and 8-speed auto should achieve in range of 27 MPG according to estimates comparing it to Land Cruiser with same powertrain.  Assuming that’s close, it’s not that much better than F-150 Hybrid.  If Ranger with 2.3L EB hybrid ends up in same +/- 27 MPG combined fuel economy, I don’t expect the 50+ percent sales success as Hybrid Maverick.  Breaking 30 MPG would make a statement; 26~27 not so much IMO.

 

 

https://tfltruck.com/2023/08/wait-will-the-2024-toyota-tacoma-i-force-max-get-27-mpg-combined/

 

To be fair, keep in mind, until recently Maverick had hybrid standard, so for most people they could've just gone with the "standard" truck, but would've been perfectly happy with either powertrain.  It'll be interesting to see how those numbers even out.

 

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

So the question of the hour is will the 2.3L PHEV find its way into the Explorer and Bronco in North America. 

 

When is the 2024/5 Explorer getting shown off?

 

I know they're not saying anything now, but I don't see how they wouldn't offer it here.

 

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I would consider a Ranger PHEV with a 6 ft bed.

 

I'd have been interested in a hybrid Bronco had it been offered.

[bzcat]

I'm guessing we will see the 2.3 PHEV in the Bronco first in the US. Perhaps the mid cycle update in 2026?

[Rick73]

4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Tundra i-FORCE MAX Hybrid is a legitimate hybrid powertrain, a P2 architecture with Toyota's most efficient V6 engine to date (V35A-FTS) and 250 Nm AC synchronous motor.

 

The issue is that the legitimate hybrid powertrains Toyota and Ford are using in pickup trucks are much better suited for regulatory compliance than for real world benefits to customers. Ford is better off focusing its efforts on bringing Ranger BEV to market sooner than Toyota does the same with Hilux or Tacoma BEV, rather than fielding a competitor to Tacoma i-FORCE MAX Hybrid or a future Hilux hybrid. 

Semantics aside, I don’t consider hybrid systems designed more “for regulatory compliance than for real world benefits to customers” as legitimate efforts to improve fuel economy, particularly in city traffic, which is the primary purpose of a hybrid to start with.  Assuming of course we don’t include marketing advantages to hook buyers on “hybrid” label.

 

Your data on Toyota appears correct, but the twin turbo engine is not true Atkinson like others in that engine family, which in hybrid applications run compression ratio of up to 14:1.  The Tundra hybrid is simulated hybrid with 10.4 C.R.  I’ve seen data suggesting approximately 10% lower thermal efficiency at peak economy (41 vs 37 percent).  Not certain of accuracy but sounds about right.

 

Also very important is that real hybrids from Ford and Toyota use electric motors rated in 100 HP range, and this on vehicles often under 4,000 pounds.  By comparison, Tundra, which weighs over 6,000 pounds, uses a 48 HP electric motor.  There are mild hybrids that have greater electrification than that on vehicle weight basis.

 

Just saying details matter, and it’s no surprise a heavy Tundra with powerful turbo engine and very little electrification gets horrible fuel economy in real world driving.  Tacoma fuel economy will likely be as expected for a smaller version of Tundra.  And if I had to guess, Ranger will be much closer to hybrid F-150 than Maverick.

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

I would consider a Ranger PHEV with a 6 ft bed.

Only if it comes in brown and has a stick shift. Then I might buy it, but it can cost no more than $2 that's my ceiling. I'm taking all the risk here Ford, best I can offer. 

[DeluxeStang]

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/09/ford-will-not-sell-the-ranger-phev-in-the-u-s-because-it-already-has-enough-hybrid-trucks/

 

Unfortunate, but not terribly surprising. 

[rperez817]

23 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/09/ford-will-not-sell-the-ranger-phev-in-the-u-s-because-it-already-has-enough-hybrid-trucks/

 

Unfortunate, but not terribly surprising. 

 

Thanks for that Carscoops article DeluxeStang. If Ford's decision to not bring Ranger PHEV to the U.S. market means that Ranger BEV will arrive in that market sooner, that would be great news.

[T-dubz]

30 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Thanks for that Carscoops article DeluxeStang. If Ford's decision to not bring Ranger PHEV to the U.S. market means that Ranger BEV will arrive in that market sooner, that would be great news.

I think it’s more a reflection of ford being cheap. There are lots of features the global ranger has that the American ranger doesn’t, like cup holders that pop out of the dash, rear ac vents, electronic shifter for all trims, etc. Just add the hybrid to the list.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/09/ford-will-not-sell-the-ranger-phev-in-the-u-s-because-it-already-has-enough-hybrid-trucks/

 

Unfortunate, but not terribly surprising. 

carscoops reference Car and Driver article, and C&D claim Ford spokesperson mentioned F-150 PHEV?  Doesn’t seem very accurate reporting.

 

Ranger PHEV with only 28 miles range (based on European WLTP, which means less by EPA) would likely have limited demand, so not surprising.  Range estimate being WLTP is also from Car and Driver.

 

 

“A Ford spokesperson told Car and Driver that the company believes it offers alternatives with the Maverick hybrid as well as the F-150 plug-in hybrid and F-150 Lightning EV.“