Deanh Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 7 hours ago, akirby said: WAY more competitive vehicles nowadays including the Koreans. after these strikes they are going to have a field day when corporate adjusts MSRPs to counter profit loss due to extra expenses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 2 hours ago, T-dubz said: Mach E’s also have quite a bit of money on the hood too. Every single one of the 11 on my local dealers lot are discounted anywhere between 6-12k. They have GT’s for sale for 53k. Also, the edge, which is 500 years old nearly doubled the Mach e’s sales. Edge had pretty hefty incentives on them as well if I recall...it was $3000 with 0% I beleive....Mach E's were $3000 with 1.9 for 60....definitely helped move units that were literally sitting....ironically the incentives were vin dependent, Ford loweed the MSRPs on some ( later production ) $3000...those units only had the APR, not the rebates...had some customers scratching their heads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 11 minutes ago, Deanh said: after these strikes they are going to have a field day when corporate adjusts MSRPs to counter profit loss due to extra expenses... You keep harping about that but is there really any truth to it? Vehicle pricing is going up irregardless of a new contract or not. I'm sure Ford has crunched the numbers and has it more or less figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 9 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: You keep harping about that but is there really any truth to it? Vehicle pricing is going up irregardless of a new contract or not. I'm sure Ford has crunched the numbers and has it more or less figured out. sheesh...Im speculating for sure...but if MSRPS go up as I predict to cover additional expenses watch market share...its going to be interesting for sure...and yeah...Im somewhat worried.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Here are September figures since Ford shares quarterly figures on the quarter months: Quarterly trucks comparison: And BEV trucks/van sales: 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 not insinuating anything here, but I have received a couple of Courtesy Delivery Mach E;s for Wheels Inc....I wonder if Ford has been working on moving them through Fleet avenues..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 32 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Here are September figures since Ford shares quarterly figures on the quarter months: Quarterly trucks comparison: And BEV trucks/van sales: the breakdowns are interesting, especially given what outsells what, not really a lot of surprizes...we havent had Rangers for a while and Transit Connects we get in dribs and drabs, full size Transits are impossible ...Mavericks have been exceptionally slow as well but not as bad as the afformentioned... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 What caused such low Lightning sales? At least Mach-E improved significantly. Even the E-Transit improved percentage wise, though sales are still under 1,000 for September. GM EV data is interesting as well. Silverado is very low but it’s just starting out. However, the Brightdrop Zero600 delivery van has been around long enough to have greater than 33 units sold. I thought they were doing well, but apparently not in September. The only BEV Van I’ve seen on road are the Amazon Rivian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 13 minutes ago, Rick73 said: The only BEV Van I’ve seen on road are the Amazon Rivian. Did it cause your eyes to bleed? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 7 hours ago, Rick73 said: What caused such low Lightning sales? At least Mach-E improved significantly. Even the E-Transit improved percentage wise, though sales are still under 1,000 for September. The plant was retooling to make more of them? Low stock? Also it appears that the Mach E discounts have disappeared in my area-I know the dealership I got my Bronco had good incentives on them (back in the summer) but they are only offering $1K on what they have in stock now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 8 hours ago, Rick73 said: What caused such low Lightning sales? 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: The plant was retooling to make more of them? Low stock? silvrsvt is correct. REVC was shutdown for a significant portion of Q3; it resumed production of F-150 Lightning in August 2023. While demand continues to exceed supply for these trucks, the capacity expansion and associated production ramp up going on now will address the low stock issue in Q4 and into next year. Indeed, Ford mentioned in the Q3 sales release "F-150 Lightning is expected to produce sales increases in Q4, as capacity actions at the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center are realized". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 4 hours ago, rperez817 said: silvrsvt is correct. REVC was shutdown for a significant portion of Q3; it resumed production of F-150 Lightning in August 2023. While demand continues to exceed supply for these trucks, the capacity expansion and associated production ramp up going on now will address the low stock issue in Q4 and into next year. Indeed, Ford mentioned in the Q3 sales release "F-150 Lightning is expected to produce sales increases in Q4, as capacity actions at the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center are realized". they seriously need to re-evaluate their model mix breakdown and shift focus from the units priced in the Stratosphere..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 5 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The plant was retooling to make more of them? Low stock? Also it appears that the Mach E discounts have disappeared in my area-I know the dealership I got my Bronco had good incentives on them (back in the summer) but they are only offering $1K on what they have in stock now. yep...the MSRPs dropped 3k , they still have subveened interest rates...which in comparison with the regular rates which are mid 7's and above through Ford....equates to pretty heft savings.....rates are flat out crazy right now on anything barring that can be seen sitting as stock units on lots....ie anything in demand..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 13 hours ago, Rick73 said: What caused such low Lightning sales? At least Mach-E improved significantly. Even the E-Transit improved percentage wise, though sales are still under 1,000 for September. GM EV data is interesting as well. Silverado is very low but it’s just starting out. However, the Brightdrop Zero600 delivery van has been around long enough to have greater than 33 units sold. I thought they were doing well, but apparently not in September. The only BEV Van I’ve seen on road are the Amazon Rivian. Actually, 33 was for the 3rd QUARTER, per GM's chart - I didn't consider I was comparing Quarter to month there for Transit (the chart wasn't built to compare them like I do the quarterly for the trucks, and I threw it in there quickly because it was the first time I saw it listed on the chart. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) On 10/6/2023 at 3:31 AM, Deanh said: yep...the MSRPs dropped 3k , they still have subveened interest rates...which in comparison with the regular rates which are mid 7's and above through Ford....equates to pretty heft savings.....rates are flat out crazy right now on anything barring that can be seen sitting as stock units on lots....ie anything in demand..... Healthy margins on those vehicles so Ford can be a bit creative on things like interest rates to land a few more sales. Not sure exactly how much fat there is in Ford’s prices but the model mix seems to be favouring mid and upper trims. Buyer always seems to end up paying more….. Edited October 7, 2023 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 On 10/6/2023 at 8:34 PM, jpd80 said: Healthy margins on those vehicles so Ford can be a bit creative on things like interest rates to land a few more sales. Not sure exactly how much fat there is in Ford’s prices but the model mix seems to be favouring mid and upper trims. Buyer always seems to end up paying more….. irony...theres no fat in the EVs...I remember hearing Ford literally takes a loss on each and every one....and now that loss is just compounded by subsidized financing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 17 minutes ago, Deanh said: irony...theres no fat in the EVs...I remember hearing Ford literally takes a loss on each and every one....and now that loss is just compounded by subsidized financing..... Please stop saying that - they’re not necessarily losing money on gross sales, they’re losing money as a business unit because they’re building new assembly plants and battery plants. That’s not the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 11 minutes ago, akirby said: they’re losing money as a business unit because they’re building new assembly plants and battery plants. That’s not the same thing. Is that an accurate statement (not arguing, questioning)? All of the assembly mentioned is certainly a cash drain, but it isn't necessarily a pure profit drain, since those assets are depreciable and not fully expensed in the first year? Isn't the capital depreciation for facilities something like 5 or 7 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 46 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: Is that an accurate statement (not arguing, questioning)? All of the assembly mentioned is certainly a cash drain, but it isn't necessarily a pure profit drain, since those assets are depreciable and not fully expensed in the first year? Isn't the capital depreciation for facilities something like 5 or 7 years? That’s a good question - I’m not certain exactly how it shows up on the balance sheet but I know it requires a lot of hard cash (capital). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tico Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) On 10/4/2023 at 12:57 PM, ice-capades said: Comparing Mustang sales vs. Mustang Mach-E sales rates is comparing apples vs. oranges as they're totally different vehicles appealing to different customers. Completely not true! There is certainly overlap! I have own a V8 and Ecoboost Mustang and am totally considering a Mach E in few years to replace my ICE Mustang. Many tech workers are also sports car buyers. These are guys and gals who have been buying sports cars for decades but since they are working in high tech they also are attracted to BEVs. There are more than a few tech workers out there with money to buy new cars. They might buy a Corvette or a Tesla depending on many factors. Or in their dreams, both! So don't say there is no overlap. Spoken from experience and a large network of colleages in this industry. Edited October 9, 2023 by Tico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, akirby said: Please stop saying that - they’re not necessarily losing money on gross sales, they’re losing money as a business unit because they’re building new assembly plants and battery plants. That’s not the same thing. Im not sure thats 100% true SOME of the loss is due to expansion fro sure, but I wouldnt say all ...Ive been told ( by some higher ups ) the EVs are sold at a loss in an effort to gain market share ( not helped in the slightest when Teslas cutting their MSRPs ) ....not as bad as Rivians reported 34k per unit loss, although 32k is tossed around ( and Rivians loss has nothing to do with new assembly plants ) but they are most definitely hurting the bottom line and subsidized by their ICE stablemates... Edited October 9, 2023 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 20 minutes ago, Deanh said: Im not sure thats 100% true SOME of the loss is due to expansion fro sure, but I wouldnt say all ...Ive been told ( by some higher ups ) the EVs are sold at a loss in an effort to gain market share ( not helped in the slightest when Teslas cutting their MSRPs ) ....not as bad as Rivians reported 34k per unit loss, although 32k is tossed around ( and Rivians loss has nothing to do with new assembly plants ) but they are most definitely hurting the bottom line and subsidized by their ICE stablemates... Im not saying they aren’t sold at a loss right now but it’s nowhere near the 32K number that is being thrown around based on the number sold divided into the Model E financials. And it does look like the factories get reported as depreciation so only a portion of that cost shows as an annual expense. But it’s still a huge capital expense affecting operating cash. But forget factory startup costs - you have essentially a full team on payroll designing and engineering and testing multiple new BEVs that aren’t even on sale yet. At least 4 we know about in NA - aviator, Explorer, next Gen Mach-e and the BEV pickup- plus whatever is in Europe. That’s a lot of costs with no corresponding revenue. Think of it as you just built and staffed and stocked an entire grocery store but you’re only selling cereal. Last month you sold 100 boxes of cereal but your overhead costs were $1M. Did you lose $10k on each box of cereal? No because you lost $1M regardless of whether you sold 100 boxes or 1 box or 1000 boxes. If ford sold twice as many Mach-Es and Lightnings then instead of losing $32K on each one they only lose $$20k. Sell more and it goes down even more. That’s why it’s a bad statistic. You’re apportioning what is essentially fixed overhead (for now ) to each vehicle sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, akirby said: Im not saying they aren’t sold at a loss right now but it’s nowhere near the 32K number that is being thrown around based on the number sold divided into the Model E financials. And it does look like the factories get reported as depreciation so only a portion of that cost shows as an annual expense. But it’s still a huge capital expense affecting operating cash. But forget factory startup costs - you have essentially a full team on payroll designing and engineering and testing multiple new BEVs that aren’t even on sale yet. At least 4 we know about in NA - aviator, Explorer, next Gen Mach-e and the BEV pickup- plus whatever is in Europe. That’s a lot of costs with no corresponding revenue. Think of it as you just built and staffed and stocked an entire grocery store but you’re only selling cereal. Last month you sold 100 boxes of cereal but your overhead costs were $1M. Did you lose $10k on each box of cereal? No because you lost $1M regardless of whether you sold 100 boxes or 1 box or 1000 boxes. If ford sold twice as many Mach-Es and Lightnings then instead of losing $32K on each one they only lose $$20k. Sell more and it goes down even more. That’s why it’s a bad statistic. You’re apportioning what is essentially fixed overhead (for now ) to each vehicle sold. fuzzy math...heck one article stated Ford was losing 60 k per unit...what to believe right ?. Just hope this doesnt bite them in the a$$....could be wrong but Im pretty sure theres an alternate to BEVs on the horizon....we shall see...hopefully the new plants can be somewhat flexible and be altered if necessary...Im also completely certain the predictions of no more ICE in the near future are totally ill founded....thank god Ill be out of the Business before THAT ever happens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, Deanh said: fuzzy math...heck one article stated Ford was losing 60 k per unit...what to believe right ?. Just hope this doesnt bite them in the a$$....could be wrong but Im pretty sure theres an alternate to BEVs on the horizon....we shall see...hopefully the new plants can be somewhat flexible and be altered if necessary...Im also completely certain the predictions of no more ICE in the near future are totally ill founded....thank god Ill be out of the Business before THAT ever happens... BEVs are here to stay regardless and they will be profitable at some point but it requires a huge investment now to be ready for the future. To do nothing would be suicide. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, akirby said: BEVs are here to stay regardless and they will be profitable at some point but it requires a huge investment now to be ready for the future. To do nothing would be suicide. true...old saying...you cant win or lose if you dont run the race, that said theres been an awful lot of startups that have gone belly up.......the next 10-15 years in the Auto Industry is going to be facinating...thankfully Ill be a Couch coach.....lol... Edited October 9, 2023 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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