It still seems like getting rid of the Fusion was a mistake.

[tbone]

10 minutes ago, AGR said:

 

GM Begins Planning Next-Gen, 2025 Chevy Malibu: Exclusive (gmauthority.com)

 

Let the attack-the-source and/or GM-is-stupid posts begin...

Not from me.  I think Ford should have at least one sedan.  Without it, I feel there is a hole in the lineup. 

[akirby]

8 hours ago, AGR said:

 

GM Begins Planning Next-Gen, 2025 Chevy Malibu: Exclusive (gmauthority.com)

 

Let the attack-the-source and/or GM-is-stupid posts begin...

Nobody said it was stupid.  It just means that GM doesn’t have a better option for that plant to build and they can’t or don’t want to shut it down.  Ford chose to do Maverick and Bronco Sport instead of Fusion.  GM chose to keep Malibu.  Each business case is different depending on the products, contracts and obligations.  I would bet a lot of money that Ford will get a lot more profit on Maverick and Bronco Sport than GM will on Malibu but since GM doesn’t have those other products it’s a moot point.  GM has always favored volume over profit margin.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, tbone said:

Not from me.  I think Ford should have at least one sedan.  Without it, I feel there is a hole in the lineup. 

Did you feel that way about minivans when they discontinued Windstar/Freestar or whatever they called the last one?

 

Do Honda, Kia, Hyundai, VW have holes in their lineup because they don’t have body on frame pickups or commercial vans?

 

Does everyone except Jeep and Toyota have holes because they don’t have a Bronco competitor?

 

I get the emotional attachment to sedans but each company has different strengths and weaknesses and institutional knowledge and unique business situations.

 

That said, if they don’t close Flat Rock or convert it to BEVs then a case could be made to build the Chinese Mondeo and zephyr here with hybrid powertrains.  Perhaps with BEV sales plateauing they’ll look to do more hybrids across the board.

[Rick73]

9 hours ago, AGR said:

 

GM Begins Planning Next-Gen, 2025 Chevy Malibu: Exclusive (gmauthority.com)

 

Let the attack-the-source and/or GM-is-stupid posts begin...

I like Malibu size and cost, but front appearance needs work.  I’m curious in what powertrain GM would use in next generation because existing 1.5L turbo fuel economy is good but doesn’t stand out.  As far as I know GM doesn’t have any hybrid options, though they are reportedly working on a hybrid Corvette, suggesting they haven’t closed door on hybrids completely.

 

As related note, just saw report GM is delaying BEV trucks due to slow expected sales, which suggest to me that hybrids and more fuel-efficient sedans may get greater attention.  I say “related” because I expect Ford will face similar decisions, and cars like Fusion may play a major role.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-delays-ev-truck-production-by-year-michigan-plant-2023-10-17/

[silvrsvt]

Just looking at the MSRP of both the Escape and the Bronco Sport, which is already higher than the  Malibu.

 

Just looking at a local dealerships-the Malibu is in the mid 25K range, where the vast majority of Escapes are in the mid 35K range that are in stock. 

[silvrsvt]

9 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

I like Malibu size and cost, but front appearance needs work.  I’m curious in what powertrain GM would use in next generation because existing 1.5L turbo fuel economy is good but doesn’t stand out.  As far as I know GM doesn’t have any hybrid options, though they are reportedly working on a hybrid Corvette, suggesting they haven’t closed door on hybrids completely.

 

As related note, just saw report GM is delaying BEV trucks due to slow expected sales, which suggest to me that hybrids and more fuel-efficient sedans may get greater attention.  I say “related” because I expect Ford will face similar decisions, and cars like Fusion may play a major role.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-delays-ev-truck-production-by-year-michigan-plant-2023-10-17/

 

Delaying something for a year isn't an issue-just keep in mind whatever is coming out in the next 36 months is more or less already set in stone due to tooling up for new parts. Its not like GM is going to snap its fingers and all of sudden come out with hybrid products that they don't have. 

 

Its just like the Press saying Ford is coming out with more hybrids-when the truth is they want to increase sales of the F-150 Powerboost from 10 to 20% with the 2025 F-150

 

 

[AM222]

10 hours ago, tbone said:

Not from me.  I think Ford should have at least one sedan.  Without it, I feel there is a hole in the lineup. 

True, it feels like a hole when a popular model suddenly goes missing. Toyota for example still sells the Camry because people still buy them.

Ford has a C2-based mid-size sedan...

They just need to make a federalized version of it for North America if they wanted (like what they did with the all-new Nautilus). 

Edited October 20, 2023 by AM222

[silvrsvt]

20 minutes ago, AM222 said:

True, it feels like a hole when a popular model suddenly goes missing. Toyota for example still sells the Camry because people still buy them.

 

But its going away in its own home market

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43417153/toyota-camry-japan-killed/

[GearheadGrrrl]

Ford sedans/hatches selling on buyer loyalty alone?

 

Fiestas and Focuses as well as Ford engines in sports and open wheel cars are still very popular in amateur autocross, racing, and rally/cross. Ford needs to give these loyal Ford racers something new to move up to, and a near 2 ton Mustang ain't it.

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

GM has always favored volume over profit margin.

 

That may have been the case with the "Old GM", but in the past decade GM has emphasized profitability over volume. Among the big 3 U.S. automakers, GM's gross and EBITD margins have been consistently higher than Ford's, but Tesla has overtaken the other 2 in the past few years in terms of profitability.

 

2 hours ago, akirby said:

 Perhaps with BEV sales plateauing they’ll look to do more hybrids across the board.

 

BEV sales continue to grow exponentially, not plateau. To Ford, hybrids may address certain regulatory compliance needs for the next couple years or so. Beyond that, they're a distraction.

 

Ford must do everything possible to meet or exceed its internal goals of 600,000 BEV run rate next year and 2 million BEV run rate by 2026. Maybe introducing a BEV sedan to the U.S. market will facilitate that, maybe not.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

Ford has a C2-based mid-size sedan...

They just need to make a federalized version of it for North America if they wanted, like what they did with the all-new Nautilus. 

I don’t think they could import it and make a profit.  Nautilus is probably minimal profit or break even and was done to help the dealers more than anything.

[ice-capades]

Just a thought going back to discussions a few years ago related to the subject of sedans. What if Ford decided to produce a Mustang sedan as speculated a few years ago? Although it would be RWD, it would provide a sedan version that could expand production at FRAP (Flat Rock Assembly Plant) and then upgraded or introduced as a Hybrid or PHEV model prior to the Mustang family conversion to BEV. A Mustang Sedan would both expand the Mustang family of vehicles, provide a unique Mustang sedan, etc. 

[AM222]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But its going away in its own home market

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43417153/toyota-camry-japan-killed/

Don't forget that Japan is a market for small cars, mainstream for them is 133in-long kei cars to a Corolla. Toyota has a lot of small cars & crossovers available in Japan that's not offered in the US.

Edited October 20, 2023 by AM222

[AM222]

59 minutes ago, akirby said:

I don’t think they could import it and make a profit.  Nautilus is probably minimal profit or break even and was done to help the dealers more than anything.

...or they assemble it in a plant that builds C2-based models. 

 

USDM Camrys & Accords are built in the US right?

[Tico]

I am not so sure an ICE sedan makes sense for Ford NA if you're only going to sell 75K a year or less given that it would have to made here to make a profit vs importing. Unless it could share architecture with the Mustang at flat rock? But that is farfetched I know. Maybe just share flat rock. But only if there was a good chance of profit in it and it has to be a competitive offering technology and price wise to get the volumes needed. Finally aways the real question is could those dollars be invested elsewhere for a bigger return?

 

As far as the hybrid discussion , I am all for more hybrids, only because the up front price of full electric vehicles is limiting the size of the market for them. For the vast majority of people 50K plus is not obtainable for a family hauler. That's why small ICE CUVs are the biggest market. Price and utility. Also I must say the talk to V8 Corvette or Mustang hybrids is not the type of offering I am talking about. I am talking about the products similar to Escape or Maverik hybrids. Toyota offers much of their lineup in hybrid form now. So should all the other manufacturs. Bronco Sport and other Ford CUVs / SUVs should have a hybrid offering. Also, I would buy an ecoboost Mustang hybrid as long as it performed as well as the current ecoboost version. Not interested in a 50 or 60K Mustang GT hybrid. My 21 Escape hybrid gets mid 30s and was getting near 40 before I swapped out the eco tires because there sucked in the winter. My current 20 ecoboost Mustang and my old 2.0 ecoboost Fusion only managed mid to high 20s long term. Boosting these numbers into the mid 30s would be enough to make me pay the premium for a hybrid. Still would be much cheaper than mid trim level Mach E.

 

BEVs will rule if they ever get cost down closer to ICE. Until then I think hybrids are a good option for the majority of the market. Yes the average transaction price is over 40K but that means half the buyers are getting something priced in the high 20s or 30s, which mid trim lever BEV can't touch.

[akirby]

13 minutes ago, AM222 said:

...or they assemble it in a plant that builds C2-based models. 

 

USDM Camrys & Accords are built in the US right?

 

4 hours ago, akirby said:

That said, if they don’t close Flat Rock or convert it to BEVs then a case could be made to build the Chinese Mondeo and zephyr here with hybrid powertrains. 

You wouldn’t take away c2 capacity that could be building Bronco sports or mavericks or even escapes to build Mondeo.

Edited October 20, 2023 by akirby

[tbone]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Did you feel that way about minivans when they discontinued Windstar/Freestar or whatever they called the last one?

 

Do Honda, Kia, Hyundai, VW have holes in their lineup because they don’t have body on frame pickups or commercial vans?

 

Does everyone except Jeep and Toyota have holes because they don’t have a Bronco competitor?

 

I get the emotional attachment to sedans but each company has different strengths and weaknesses and institutional knowledge and unique business situations.

 

That said, if they don’t close Flat Rock or convert it to BEVs then a case could be made to build the Chinese Mondeo and zephyr here with hybrid powertrains.  Perhaps with BEV sales plateauing they’ll look to do more hybrids across the board.

 

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Just looking at the MSRP of both the Escape and the Bronco Sport, which is already higher than the  Malibu.

 

Just looking at a local dealerships-the Malibu is in the mid 25K range, where the vast majority of Escapes are in the mid 35K range that are in stock. 

When I think of hole in the lineup, I think of it from two perspectives.  The first is price point and the second is offering a sedan.  
 

Other than Maverick, which starts at $23,400 for the stripper model and is a truck, Ford does not have any entry level vehicles.  I think it is important to get people into a Ford product as early as possible,  because if they have a good experience they will consider Ford for their next purchase, which will likely be a more expensive model.  I understand brand loyalty isn’t what it once was, which I feel makes it all that much more important to get people into and in front of your vehicles for future consideration. 
 

The second point is there are still people that want sedans.  If they didn’t other manufacturers would discontinue them as well.  It’s up to Ford to find a way to build a sedan they can sell profitably, even if it is at a smaller profit margin than they get on the trucks.  The benefit circled back to point one.  
 

In respect to your comparison to minivans and the like, I consider sedans more of a mainstream vehicle with more gross sales potential than those other vehicles, which also typically have a much higher cost of entry.  
 

I personally always buy trucks so I don’t have an emotional attachment to sedans.  It’s strictly from a business perspective to get people into Fords with hopes of them continuing to buy Ford products.  

[akirby]

1 hour ago, tbone said:

 

When I think of hole in the lineup, I think of it from two perspectives.  The first is price point and the second is offering a sedan.  
 

Other than Maverick, which starts at $23,400 for the stripper model and is a truck, Ford does not have any entry level vehicles.  I think it is important to get people into a Ford product as early as possible,  because if they have a good experience they will consider Ford for their next purchase, which will likely be a more expensive model.  I understand brand loyalty isn’t what it once was, which I feel makes it all that much more important to get people into and in front of your vehicles for future consideration. 
 

The second point is there are still people that want sedans.  If they didn’t other manufacturers would discontinue them as well.  It’s up to Ford to find a way to build a sedan they can sell profitably, even if it is at a smaller profit margin than they get on the trucks.  The benefit circled back to point one.  
 

In respect to your comparison to minivans and the like, I consider sedans more of a mainstream vehicle with more gross sales potential than those other vehicles, which also typically have a much higher cost of entry.  
 

I personally always buy trucks so I don’t have an emotional attachment to sedans.  It’s strictly from a business perspective to get people into Fords with hopes of them continuing to buy Ford products.  

 

We’ve already debated whether brand loyalty even exists any more so I won’t rehash that.

 

But there is a big difference between Fusion buyers and Maverick/Bronco Sport buyers.  A lot (probably the majority) of Fusion buyers bought cheaper SE models strictly on price, especially compared to other vehicles like Edge and Explorer.  Maverick and Bronco Sport buyers bought on emotion.  Even the cheaper Maverick was so desirable they were selling for $5K over MSRP.  Which buyers do you think are more likely to buy an explorer, Ranger, Bronco,  F150 or Superduty?

 

Current sales volume/market share and profit margins suggest that losing fusion and focus did not hurt Ford at all.

 

 

[rmc523]

I'm going to coin a new auto segment.....

 

the Cedan - a crossover sedan sort of like that new Crown, where it's more of a sedan body but sitting up higher.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

I'm going to coin a new auto segment.....

 

the Cedan - a crossover sedan sort of like that new Crown, where it's more of a sedan body but sitting up higher.

 

Wasn’t that what Ford called Active?

[rmc523]

20 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

Wasn’t that what Ford called Active?

 

but I'm calling the segment "cedan" - just like "crossover" didn't exist years ago.

[AM222]

6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

I'm going to coin a new auto segment.....

 

the Cedan - a crossover sedan sort of like that new Crown, where it's more of a sedan body but sitting up higher.

Ford has the Evos, fastback profile but with a rear hatch instead of the Crown"s small trunk opening (problem of fastbacks with trunk lids).

[AM222]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

 

You wouldn’t take away c2 capacity that could be building Bronco sports or mavericks or even escapes to build Mondeo.

Don't they only build the Bronco Sport and Maverick in its Hermosillo plant? Out of curiosity, is Ford making use of its 300k a year capacity?

 

*edit* I just realized the Toyota Kentucky plant has a larger 550k a year capacity, i guess that's how they roll out a lot of Rav4s, Camrys etc.

Edited October 21, 2023 by AM222

[akirby]

10 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Don't they only build the Bronco Sport and Maverick tin Mexico? Out of curiosity, is Ford making use of its 300k capacity? I just realized the Toyota Kentucky plant has a larger capacity.

I don’t think they have enough parts to build more of anything otherwise they would have built a lot more Mavericks and Bronco Sports.

[HotRunrGuy]

14 minutes ago, AM222 said:

 I just realized the Toyota Kentucky plant has a larger 550k a year capacity, i guess that's how they roll out a lot of Rav4s, Camrys etc.

 

"cough " Future UAW members,,,,  "cough"

 

HRG