It still seems like getting rid of the Fusion was a mistake.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

The only way for Zephyr to work in the US is it would need the 3.0T added back to it (if it will fit), the 2.0 isn't enough for the US market.  And they would need a hybrid model preferably a plugin option.

 

Which midsized family sedan has a larger or more powerful engine?  The 2.0 replaces the 3.5L V6 very easily.  I prefer our 2.0L Nautilus over the 3.7L MKX and it’s not even close.

[rperez817]

18 minutes ago, akirby said:

Which midsized family sedan has a larger or more powerful engine?  

 

All of them except Honda Accord and Chevy Malibu.

[Andrew L]

49 minutes ago, akirby said:

Which midsized family sedan has a larger or more powerful engine?  The 2.0 replaces the 3.5L V6 very easily.  I prefer our 2.0L Nautilus over the 3.7L MKX and it’s not even close.

 

The Zephyr would be a luxury sedan and to compete with other luxury sedans it would need a more powerful engine.  I would take a 2.0L Nautilus over a 3.7L MKX because of the dreaded waterpump issue.  But I would gladly take a 2.7L over a 2.0L Nautilus.

 

And to be clear I am saying the 3.0 should be added as an option.  The 2.0 can stay as a base but realistically you need a larger engine choice for our market.  The closest competitor to the Zephyr in the US would be the Lexus ES which has 3 options.  A 2.0, a 2.5 Hybrid, and a 3.5 V6.  Another would be the Acura TLX which offers a 2.0 and 3.0 V6.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Andrew L

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

The Zephyr would be a luxury sedan and to compete with other luxury sedans it would need a more powerful engine.  I would take a 2.0L Nautilus over a 3.7L MKX because of the dreaded waterpump issue.  But I would gladly take a 2.7L over a 2.0L Nautilus.

 

And to be clear I am saying the 3.0 should be added as an option.  The 2.0 can stay as a base but realistically you need a larger engine choice for our market.  The closest competitor to the Zephyr in the US would be the Lexus ES which has 3 options.  A 2.0, a 2.5 Hybrid, and a 3.5 V6.  Another would be the Acura TLX which offers a 2.0 and 3.0 V6.

Sorry I was talking about Fusion and its competitors.  But even the Lexus ES-350 only has a 300 hp 3.5L v6 so a bigger engine isn’t exactly a requirement.  But it would help.

[Rick73]

I would love to know what percent of buyers really care as much about speed and power as auto enthusiast think?  The idea that most buyers want 300 HP turbo EcoBoost engines in daily drivers seems odd to me.  I usually buy base engines, so Ford EcoBoost seems unlikely for me.  

[Footballfan]

14 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

No one knows what Ford plant production commitments are included in the next UAW contract and we won't know until Ford discloses that information after the UAW contract terms are ratified. There's been a lot of speculation, including past unfilled promises, about Flat Rock's future. The plant has been a valuable resource for Ford over the years in addressing quality and other issues for vehicles that were shipped to Flat Rock to resolve those issues utilizing Flat Rock workers. Only time will tell what plans Ford has for the Flat Rock plant. 

Farley said that each UAW represented plant will have product commitments.  Also, the head of the UAW Ford bargaining team used to be chairman at Flat Rock. Also, the UAW won the right to strike over plant closings as well as income guarantees for indefinite layoffs.  All these factors probably bode well for Flat Rock getting new product. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

4 hours ago, Footballfan said:

Farley said that each UAW represented plant will have product commitments.  Also, the head of the UAW Ford bargaining team used to be chairman at Flat Rock. Also, the UAW won the right to strike over plant closings as well as income guarantees for indefinite layoffs.  All these factors probably bode well for Flat Rock getting new product. 

That means very little. For all we know product commitments are nothing more than continued production of existing products. 

[Gurgeh]

Interesting conversation. Something to remember in the discussion over whether FMC can make money on low-margin sedans either added into the production mix at Flat Rock or imported from Ford plants in China. Going forward, the company is going to have to be even more careful about product profitability. Lower profit sedans would be even harder to make financially viable using UAW labor under the new contract. If Ford had extra production capacity in Mexico that might be a more feasible option for North American production. And remember, importing from China still faces a head wind of 25% import duties. I'm not sure how much Ford expects to make from the 2024 Nautilus imports. My guess is that bringing over the Nautilus from China is more about preserving Lincoln -- which, without it, would have dropped to only 3 products -- than about improving overall corporate profits.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Gurgeh

[zipnzap]

Reminder that the current Malibu is more than 8 years old and is still selling in large numbers.

[danglin]

I am curious what the margin is on Mustang? 

 

What I would like to see is what Dodge (Stellantis) was doing, develop a Sedan (Falcon) and Coupe (Mustang) on the same platform. Would be sweet to have a V8 sedan!

 

Fusion name should carry on as a Hybrid/Electric vehicle...

[Andrew L]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

Sorry I was talking about Fusion and its competitors.  But even the Lexus ES-350 only has a 300 hp 3.5L v6 so a bigger engine isn’t exactly a requirement.  But it would help.

 

But you quoted my post specifically about the Zephyr.  Yea the 3.5 in the Lexus is old school but other cars in that mid size luxury class all have a V6 of some kind as an option.  TLX has a 3.0, CT5 has a 3.0, Q50 has a 3.0, etc. 

 

Personally I think the 2.3 would be a better base engine than the 2.0 to really separate the Zephyr from the Mondeo.

[Andrew L]

14 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

You mean the 2.0 that it had standard before?

 

I was talking about adding the 3.0 as an option back.  The 2.0 solo would not be enough for the US market.

[akirby]

20 minutes ago, zipnzap said:

Reminder that the current Malibu is more than 8 years old and is still selling in large numbers.

Malibu

2016 sales - 228K

2022 sales - 115K

 

Honda Accord

2016 - 345k

2022 - 154k

[akirby]

11 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

 

But you quoted my post specifically about the Zephyr.  Yea the 3.5 in the Lexus is old school but other cars in that mid size luxury class all have a V6 of some kind as an option.  TLX has a 3.0, CT5 has a 3.0, Q50 has a 3.0, etc. 

 

Personally I think the 2.3 would be a better base engine than the 2.0 to really separate the Zephyr from the Mondeo.

I never understood why they didn’t make the 2.3 the base engine for Nautilus to separate it from Edge.  

[akirby]

12 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

 

I was talking about adding the 3.0 as an option back.  The 2.0 solo would not be enough for the US market.

I think the current Nautilus powertrains would work just fine for Zephyr.  I bet only a small percentage of luxury sedan buyers demand the bigger engine (as opposed ones who do t really care and just check all the boxes).

[Rick73]

28 minutes ago, zipnzap said:

Reminder that the current Malibu is more than 8 years old and is still selling in large numbers.

Also a reminder of my previous point that many buyers still just want basic transportation at affordable price.  Chevy shows Malibu available well under $30k, and base engine is only 163 HP and 184 lb-ft.  It is rated up to 28 City / 36 Highway, so shouldn’t be too expensive to own overall.

 

I understand Ford wanting to be in a different market with higher margins, but ignoring this lower-end segment seems risky to me long-term.

 

By the way, I don’t care for Malibu appearance, so a little surprised it sells well.  I expect low MSRP does make big difference.

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

I understand Ford wanting to be in a different market with higher margins, but ignoring this lower-end segment seems risky to me long-term.

 

By the way, I don’t care for Malibu appearance, so a little surprised it sells well.  I expect low MSRP does make big difference.

 

They chase the lower end of the market with the Maverick instead...something unique for the time being that plays to their strengths in the pickup market. 

[akirby]

13 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

I understand Ford wanting to be in a different market with higher margins, but ignoring this lower-end segment seems risky to me long-term.

 

By the way, I don’t care for Malibu appearance, so a little surprised it sells well.  I expect low MSRP does make big difference.

Not risky at all.  The platform is readily available with Europe and China versions.  Any existing C2 plant could shift to sedans if needed.  The only way to get big volume from sedans is by making them either dirt cheap or at least significantly cheaper than utilities.

[rperez817]

29 minutes ago, danglin said:

Fusion name should carry on as a Hybrid/Electric vehicle...

 

A Ford BEV sedan for the U.S., Canada, and Mexico markets would be a nice addition to the product lineup IMO, but unlikely. Also, "Fusion" along with other Ford passenger car nameplates that aren't "Mustang" are tainted and best kept as historical items.

[DeluxeStang]

37 minutes ago, danglin said:

I am curious what the margin is on Mustang? 

 

What I would like to see is what Dodge (Stellantis) was doing, develop a Sedan (Falcon) and Coupe (Mustang) on the same platform. Would be sweet to have a V8 sedan!

 

Fusion name should carry on as a Hybrid/Electric vehicle...

Dealers report seeing a mustang sedan concept being shown to them in multiple occasions. On top of that, Ford's been seen benchmarking multiple high performance sedans in recent months/ years, a charger hellcat, a model 3 dual motor, a normal model 3, a model s plaid, and other models of the model s, and a lucid air. Why in the world would Ford been testing all those sedans, high performance sedans at that, if they had zero intention on making a performance sedan, it would be very odd. It's not like they're competitors to the mustang, not directly at least. 

[akirby]

Mustang is an icon - profit is almost irrelevant.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Not risky at all.  The platform is readily available with Europe and China versions.  Any existing C2 plant could shift to sedans if needed.  The only way to get big volume from sedans is by making them either dirt cheap or at least significantly cheaper than utilities.

Why so much concern over “big volume”?  How many Ford vehicles sell under 100,000 annually?  I guess I’m thinking if someone made a better sedan, something appealing, buyers would bite.  Malibu sales aren’t that bad, are they?  Yes, much lower than before, in large part to much greater number of vehicles, but over 100,000 is still good.

 

I completely agree low MSRP is crucial, but a new fresh innovative design could also make a big difference.  I still see a lot of sedans on the road.  If nothing else, sedans offer potential for higher fuel economy, particularly in highway driving.

[akirby]

22 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Why so much concern over “big volume”?  How many Ford vehicles sell under 100,000 annually?  I guess I’m thinking if someone made a better sedan, something appealing, buyers would bite.  Malibu sales aren’t that bad, are they?  Yes, much lower than before, in large part to much greater number of vehicles, but over 100,000 is still good.

 

I completely agree low MSRP is crucial, but a new fresh innovative design could also make a big difference.  I still see a lot of sedans on the road.  If nothing else, sedans offer potential for higher fuel economy, particularly in highway driving.

Why are you so obsessed with efficiency?  You keep harping on it incessantly.

 

There is nothing fresh or innovative you can really do with a sedan that isn’t already being done.  And the majority of buyers don’t care about performance nor do they care about a small difference in fuel economy.  You need volume to make enough profit to make the juice worth the squeeze, especially if you’re targeting lower prices.  Remember 4% profit on a $25k vehicle is only $1000 and with so much competition you always have price pressure.  Good luck making a profit on anything so cheap built in the US thanks to rising labor costs.

[ice-capades]

45 minutes ago, akirby said:

Mustang is an icon - profit is almost irrelevant.

 

And that iconic status is international. In addition, roughly half of Flat Rock's Mustang production is for export to those international markets for well over 100 countries, including RHD versions. Those export vehicles also sell at prices much higher than the comparable U.S. versions. 

[ice-capades]

41 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Why so much concern over “big volume”?  How many Ford vehicles sell under 100,000 annually?  I guess I’m thinking if someone made a better sedan, something appealing, buyers would bite.  Malibu sales aren’t that bad, are they?  Yes, much lower than before, in large part to much greater number of vehicles, but over 100,000 is still good.

 

I completely agree low MSRP is crucial, but a new fresh innovative design could also make a big difference.  I still see a lot of sedans on the road.  If nothing else, sedans offer potential for higher fuel economy, particularly in highway driving.

 

Annual production rates at only 100,000 units doesn't provide the economies of scale necessary to amortize the product development costs, plant retooling, lower supply chain costs negotiated for higher volume, efficient plant production scheduling regarding production shifts and labor assignments, etc. 

 

A lot of those vehicles you see on the road including sedans, SUV's, CUV's and trucks are a reflection of the increased vehicle quality which has lengthened the average ownership time and other factors including the increasingly higher costs related to purchasing or leasing new vehicles.