It still seems like getting rid of the Fusion was a mistake.

[akirby]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

My issue with Ford is they're leaning into lifestyle brands, but they're leaning far more towards the rugged, offroader image, and not the street performance side of things as of late. They already have the raptors, the broncos, and bronco sports. They have the rugged and boxy market taken care of, on the street performance side of things, they have the mach-e, and if I'm feeling generous, the explorer st. There's a sizable portion of buyers who want those sleek, swoopy performance SUVs, and Ford doesn't seem as concerned with them as they do with the off-road market. 

Ummm…..why did you leave out Mustang?  Doesn’t get higher street performance than that.

 

They tried high performance sedans with the 2.7 fusion sport and it tanked.  Edge st was well liked by buyers but required big incentives so it wasn’t very profitable.  The difference is people will pay a lot more for a Raptor because you get new body panels, suspension, tires and wheels and off road accessories that you can’t do with a street performance vehicle.  It’s just a tough business case.

[akirby]

23 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Not sure I follow completely.  Are you referring to 2.3L EcoBoost instead of 2.0L EB as base engine, or in optional hybrid variant?

 

I’m sure Ford had a good reason, though I don’t know what made them go with smaller engine.  Since Ford redesigned 2.3L EB for Mustang, maybe they will do the same for FWD applications and it’s not ready yet?  Power and torque ratings in Mustang application are closer to the 2023 Nautilus 2.7L V6 EB so would have made sense from that perspective.

 

Another possible issue, if referring to Nautilus hybrid option, could be that eCVT transmission may not have the torque rating to handle a turbo 2.3L.  Most Ford FWD-based hybrids I’m aware of use a naturally-aspirated 2.5L engine with much lower torque, so 2.3L EB torque may be pushing design limit.  Actually, based on 2024 Nautilus hybrid being rated at only ~310 HP, it’s possible Ford is limiting 2.0L EB power and torque.  In similar applications, the 2.5L Atkinson is rated 266 HP, and I’m fairly certain a 2.0L EB can exceed its power by far more than the 44 HP difference.  Obviously it’s not that simple because hybrid combined HP ratings are not simply added peak engine and motor power.

 

 

I think he meant make the 2.3 standard instead of the 2.0.   But there are rules in Europe and possibly China that effectively limits displacement to 2.0L.  It’s not a coincidence that almost everybody has a 2.0.

[Rick73]

28 minutes ago, akirby said:

I think he meant make the 2.3 standard instead of the 2.0.   But there are rules in Europe and possibly China that effectively limits displacement to 2.0L.  It’s not a coincidence that almost everybody has a 2.0.

Yeah, only unknown is that previous 2.0L and 2.3L EcoBoost, which date back to 2015 (according to some sources), are basically the same except for stroke length.  However, the newest 2.3L EcoBoost in Mustang is claimed to be “all-new” by Ford, and has different bore and stroke.  It will be interesting to see what specs reveal on new 2024 Nautilus when available.  Engine could be the old 2.0L EB, or a shorter-stroke version of new Mustang 2.3L EB.  I have a hunch that in time the new smaller-bore engine will replace the older (2015) version.

[CurtisH]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

The 2.0 works great in the Nautilus.  It’s not underpowered at all.  I understand folks like the extra power but from a sales standpoint it’s just not that important.  Didn’t seem to help Edge or Fusion to offer it.

The 2.0 is surprisingly quick in the Corsair.  I would expect it to be perfectly fine in the Nautilus. 

[AM222]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

Uh no I’m saying keep the Bronco styling just drop the off-road stuff.  

They can't call it a "Bronco" since Bronco has been revived as an AWD & 4WD-only sub-brand.

They should just reskin the Escape and give it a more contemporary design with sharper styling. The refreshed Escape is an improvement, it has the sharper new Ford face but it's still attached to the same rounded body. 

Imagine the Escape with a design language similar to this...

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, CurtisH said:

The 2.0 is surprisingly quick in the Corsair.  I would expect it to be perfectly fine in the Nautilus. 

 

GM just introduced a 2.5L GTDI inline-4 with 328 HP and 317 lb-ft of torque in their larger Chevy Traverse, and I could see that engine finding its way into smaller 2-row SUVs.  If so, it could start a power and displacement race where 2.0s are seen as too small and underpowered by some, particularly for AWD SUVs weighing around 4,500 pounds.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

They can't call it a "Bronco" since Bronco has been revived as an AWD & 4WD-only sub-brand.

They should just reskin the Escape and give it a more contemporary design with sharper styling. The refreshed Escape is an improvement, it has the sharper new Ford face but it's still attached to the same rounded body. 

Imagine the Escape with a design language similar to this...

But that’s just another crossover.  I agree it looks better but I don’t see it commanding a premium over the competition.

 

Selling 2wd street F150s and Rangers doesn’t diminish the 4wd or Raptor versions so I think it could be done.

 

Or just keep AWD but make a long wheelbase version with hybrid powertrain.  

Edited December 18, 2023 by akirby

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Ummm…..why did you leave out Mustang?  Doesn’t get higher street performance than that.

 

They tried high performance sedans with the 2.7 fusion sport and it tanked.  Edge st was well liked by buyers but required big incentives so it wasn’t very profitable.  The difference is people will pay a lot more for a Raptor because you get new body panels, suspension, tires and wheels and off road accessories that you can’t do with a street performance vehicle.  It’s just a tough business case.

I'm talking about utilities, and trucks should have clarified, my bad. Other brands are finding success in sporty lifestyle crossovers, premium brands like Porsche, but mainstream brands like Kia as well. It's worked well for Ford when it comes to the mach-e. I feel as though they should expand in that direction. 

 

There's room for multiple compact crossovers in Ford's lineup, I believe they need to be given a reason to exist. Ford excels when it comes to affordable aspirational products, building desirable cars most people can reasonably afford, they just need to apply that mentality to the escape. 

 

With the escape likely going electric if it survives, I see a real opportunity to differentiate it from the bronco sport, and make it a desirable product again. Just pull some inspiration from the mach-e, and other sporty crossover designs. A small, ideally still somewhat affordable, cool looking and fun to drive compact crossover that sells on passion, but takes a radically different approach to the bronco sport as to avoid stepping on each other's toes. 

[silvrsvt]

4 hours ago, CurtisH said:

The 2.0 is surprisingly quick in the Corsair.  I would expect it to be perfectly fine in the Nautilus. 

 

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

GM just introduced a 2.5L GTDI inline-4 with 328 HP and 317 lb-ft of torque in their larger Chevy Traverse, and I could see that engine finding its way into smaller 2-row SUVs.  If so, it could start a power and displacement race where 2.0s are seen as too small and underpowered by some, particularly for AWD SUVs weighing around 4,500 pounds.

 

Ford already has the 2.3L Ecoboost with 300hp and 315 lb ft torque and 315/25) in performance applications, so its not like its a huge step up. 

 

Most people have no issues with the 2.3L in the Bronco that weighs around the 4500 range depending on the configuration. 

[AM222]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

But that’s just another crossover.  I agree it looks better but I don’t see it commanding a premium over the competition.

 

Selling 2wd street F150s and Rangers doesn’t diminish the 4wd or Raptor versions so I think it could be done.

 

Or just keep AWD but make a long wheelbase version with hybrid powertrain.  

That's exactly what the Escape is, a crossover. It just needs a newer more attractive exterior and interior. The current Escape's Jelly Bean styling looked dated when it was launched. 

 

 

[ehaase]

Escape scheduled to be replaced with EV small SUV and pickup in several years, so no point making major changes to it now. 

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, ehaase said:

Escape scheduled to be replaced with EV small SUV and pickup in several years, so no point making major changes to it now. 

 

The Escape just got a major refresh in the past 12-18 months anyways-but I think the EV version might slide closer to 2030 vs 2027, so there might be one more refresh on the plastic bits. 

[GearheadGrrrl]

Instead of wannabe off road racers, Ford needs a performance car that can compete in events like SCCA Autocross and Rallycross. For that they need a low center of gravity/ wide track which the Escape could easily be given and being Ford's lightest transverse engine vehicle, the 2.3 Ecobeast tweaked to at least 300 horsepower and better transmission software with paddle shifters would make Escape competitive. Name? How about Escape RS...

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, ehaase said:

Escape scheduled to be replaced with EV small SUV and pickup in several years, so no point making major changes to it now. 

Pretty much, that's the thing with clean designs though, they don't receive a lot of critical acclaim when they're first released, but they tend to age more gracefully. Case in point, the maverick vs. the sante Cruz. Most people preferred the edgier, more futuristic Hyundai over the conservative Ford at first. Now, the sante Cruz is already starting to look outdated, and the maverick's design seems to get better and better looking with time. 

 

4 hours ago, ehaase said:

Escape scheduled to be replaced with EV small SUV and pickup in several years, so no point making major changes to it now. 

We're hearing of all the future Ford EVs, that escape thingy might be one of the less likely to develop products. Such a shame. As for the truck, I assume they'll be a maverick in EV form, but who knows. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Instead of wannabe off road racers, Ford needs a performance car that can compete in events like SCCA Autocross and Rallycross.

Those “wanna be off road racers” pay 2-3 times as much and buy 3 times as many trucks as any new performance car or crossover.

 

And if you want to autocross then buy a mustang.  

[akirby]

4 hours ago, AM222 said:

That's exactly what the Escape is, a crossover. It just needs a newer more attractive exterior and interior. The current Escape's Jelly Bean styling looked dated when it was launched. 

Even with a facelift what distinguishes it from a RAV4 or CRV?  It’s just basic transportation.  It would sell but at what profit margin?  I just think a Maverick utility or a longer Bronco sport with hybrid powertrains would sell almost as well and avoid being a commodity.

[HotRunrGuy]

15 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Most people preferred the edgier, more futuristic Hyundai over the conservative Ford at first. Now, the Santa Cruz is already starting to look outdated, and the maverick's design seems to get better and better looking with time. 

 

All one has to do is look at the sales numbers between the 2, and let the facts speak for themselves.  The people who "preferred" the Santa Cruz aren't actually willing to put their money behind their opinion.

 

HRG

[GearheadGrrrl]

55 minutes ago, akirby said:

Those “wanna be off road racers” pay 2-3 times as much and buy 3 times as many trucks as any new performance car or crossover.

 

And if you want to autocross then buy a mustang.  

Golf R, Corolla GR, Civic Type R, etc. are sold out at twice the price of the econobox versions of the same car with transaction prices around $50K. SCCA, NASA, etc. have competitive events all over the country every weekend except when it might snow. And when you're not racing, they're practical hatchbacks for every day use. Mustang is a darn good track car for the price, but leaves a lot to be desired as a daily driver where it snows... Sadly, my next car won't be a Ford.

 

As for those jacked up 4WD Broncos and pickups, even in the rural area I live in they've got no place to play- Off road park nearby allows ATVs and Side by Sides, but no trucks- They're too hard on the trails! The owners of those jacked up things are welcome to explore our township roads to their little hearts content, hope they don't get too depressed when they find the tracks they were following were made by a Rural Mail Carrier in a 1990s FWD sedan...

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Golf R, Corolla GR, Civic Type R, etc. are sold out at twice the price of the econobox versions of the same car with transaction prices around $50K. SCCA, NASA, etc. have competitive events all over the country every weekend except when it might snow. And when you're not racing, they're practical hatchbacks for every day use. Mustang is a darn good track car for the price, but leaves a lot to be desired as a daily driver where it snows... Sadly, my next car won't be a Ford.

 

As for those jacked up 4WD Broncos and pickups, even in the rural area I live in they've got no place to play- Off road park nearby allows ATVs and Side by Sides, but no trucks- They're too hard on the trails! The owners of those jacked up things are welcome to explore our township roads to their little hearts content, hope they don't get too depressed when they find the tracks they were following were made by a Rural Mail Carrier in a 1990s FWD sedan...

Ford seems to be doing well when they take the, and, approach to product design, a few examples. The maverick isn't just a small truck, it's a small truck, and it's affordable, and it came as a standard hybrid that makes it more fuel efficient than most hatchbacks. The mach-e is electric, and fast, and attractive. Stacking those ands turn good ideas into truly desirable products. 

 

With that in mind, a c2 based compact hatchback with mustang foxbody design cues, and the 2.0/2.3 rear biased AWD would be a neat extension of the mustang sub brand. Such a vehicle would appeal to buyers who wanted the return of a small, lightweight and cheaper mustang, and those who wanted a practical hatchback. 

[AM222]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

Even with a facelift what distinguishes it from a RAV4 or CRV?  It’s just basic transportation.

It just looks a bit better. What distinguishes a RAV4 from an Escape? What Ford calls commodity products can be interesting too just like the original Escape. 

The Rav4 belongs to a segment (2-row SUV) Ford calls a commodity product. It outsells the Escape in the US and is a global model (sold in markets the Escape is not even sold in). Toyota's decision to give the Rav4 a more distinctive angular styling was the right move, because this 2019 model is aging better than the jellybean 2020 Escape. (I was not a fan of the ovoid 3rd gen Taurus)


 

10 hours ago, akirby said:

It would sell but at what profit margin?  I just think a Maverick utility or a longer Bronco sport with hybrid powertrains would sell almost as well and avoid being a commodity.

The development cost of a vehicle is spread out to every unit sold (globally). The Escape is not a global model but many of its competitors are.   

If there would be a next gen Escape, what's needed? Better modern styling, improved reliability, and it needs to be sold in more markets. 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by AM222

[sullynd]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

The development cost of a vehicle is spread out to every unit sold (globally). The Escape is not a global model but many of its competitors are.   

If there would be a next gen Escape, what's needed? Better modern styling, improved reliability, and it needs to be sold in more markets. 

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=ford+kuga

[silvrsvt]

54 minutes ago, sullynd said:

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=ford+kuga

 

I was about to say...just a different name. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, AM222 said:

 

The development cost of a vehicle is spread out to every unit sold (globally). The Escape is not a global model but many of its competitors are.   

It is a global model with Kuga in Europe and Escape in China.   I agree it needs a redesign and would probably sell a little better.  I’m just not convinced the profit would be worth the investment.

[AM222]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

It is a global model with Kuga in Europe and Escape in China.   I agree it needs a redesign and would probably sell a little better.  I’m just not convinced the profit would be worth the investment.

That's not exactly global.  In Asia, the Escape is only sold in China & Taiwan (low volume). 

Out of curiosity I checked the sales number of the Rav4 in the Escape/ Kuga's main markets.

Ford Escape/ Kuga
November 2023 US sales: 11,542 
2022 US sales: 137,370
2022 Canada sales: 23,848
2022 China sales: 22,896
2022 Europe sales (Kuga): 125,718
2022 sales from Ford Escape/ Kuga's main markets: 309,832

Toyota Rav4
November 2023 US sales: 42,842
2022 US sales: 366,741
2022 Canada sales: 28,679
2022 China sales: 156,548
2022 Europe sales: 83,859
2022 sales of the Toyota Rav4 in Escape/ Kuga's main markets: 635,827

What about Ford's other markets like Australia? In 2022 Ford sold 2,179 Escapes in Australia, in the same year Toyota sold 34,845 Rav4s.
 

Edited December 19, 2023 by AM222

[paintguy]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:19 AM, akirby said:

Ummm…..why did you leave out Mustang?  Doesn’t get higher street performance than that.

 

They tried high performance sedans with the 2.7 fusion sport and it tanked.  Edge st was well liked by buyers but required big incentives so it wasn’t very profitable.  The difference is people will pay a lot more for a Raptor because you get new body panels, suspension, tires and wheels and off road accessories that you can’t do with a street performance vehicle.  It’s just a tough business case.

Taurus SHO another example of a performance sedan that never quite made the sales that were expected. I've owned 2 and both were great cars. Taurus needed a redesign, but business case not there.