Farley Says Boring Vehicles Are Going Away

[akirby]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The issue with the LWB Bronco Sport vs Escape vs the Bronco is size.

 

An Escape is 180 inches, the Bronco Sport is 172 inches

 

The Bronco is 173.7/189.4 depending on the two door vs four door. Adding a LWB BS would dilute the lineup IMO. 

 

IMO Ford would be better off leaning more into the sporty side with the next gen Escape replacement, like they are trying to do with the current model and letting the Bronco Sport take care of the people who want a tougher image with their vehicle. 

LWB Bronco sport with FWD and hybrid powertrain would not dilute anything IMO.  BS buyers don’t want Broncos.  Escape buyers want the rear seat and cargo room which the current BS lacks.  
 

Sporty is fine but it has to be more aggressive.  Maybe take the Corsair greenhouse and give it an Evos front end?

[akirby]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

I’ll say he’s never been good at choosing his words because he often says things that can be interpreted multiple ways. It sounds to me like he wants to go more profitable niche markets instead of focusing on the masses, but maybe I’m wrong. I would be a big fan of some exciting vehicles, especially if the price was right. Most of ford’s vehicles have been boring lately, minus the broncos and raptors, which of course are very expensive.

Not necessarily niche markets.  F series is the opposite of niche and is the opposite of boring given all the options and designs and trim levels and appearance packages.  People LOVE their trucks and that is they key - excitement by buyers and owners.  Not some subjective design standard.  Maverick may look like a boring design on paper but buyers love them and that’s what counts.  I’ve never heard anybody say they LOVE their Corolla or Camry.  But Maverick owners love their trucks.  

[akirby]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

I've got no problem with Ford making "passion" vehicles that sell for six figure prices- The profits can subsidize lower priced and even boring vehicles for the rest of us. But Mr. Farley needs to remember that he's got a bunch of factories and thousands of workers to keep busy...

Oh good grief you just don’t get it.  Maverick buyers are passionate about their trucks.  It’s not about price.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

That strategy works until you have to pay for autoworkers and factories that aren't building cars.

Did they shut down factories when they swapped fusion for Maverick and Bronco sport or focus for Ranger and Bronco?

 

 

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

 

You nailed it.  This isn’t about cost it’s about market segments and designs.  Maverick and Bronco sport are perfect examples.  
 

People think commodity means cheap but it really means the product isn’t differentiated from the competition which leads to price wars which reduces profitability.  Think condiments.  There isn’t much difference between mustard, ketchup or mayo brands.  Some have a preference but almost nobody is paying a premium for blue plate vs. duke’s or Heinz vs. hunts.  If one cuts prices the others have to follow or lose a lot of business.  
 

Is there differentiation between Escape and RAV4 and CRV and the S. Korean models?  Not really.  But there would be with a longer Bronco Sport with hybrid options.

Here me out, we know maverick owners want a AWD hybrid. What if Ford developed an AWD hybrid system for the bronco sport, and maverick alike? You distribute the development costs between multiple models, maverick buyers are happy, and bronco sport buyers get that hybrid they've been asking for without losing the AWD capability the bronco is marketed for.

 

As for an edge replacement, assuming Ford wanted to stay in that segment at all, instead of investing in an all new top hat, powertrains, and platform specific to a new edge, what if Ford endeavored to make the next gen ICE explorer class leading again, and engineered it from the beginning to be sold in three row, and two row configurations with a slightly shorter wheelbase? Essentially turning the explorer into something that appealed to existing explorer and edge buyers. 

[T-dubz]

35 minutes ago, akirby said:

Oh good grief you just don’t get it.  Maverick buyers are passionate about their trucks.  It’s not about price.

The maverick is a fine vehicle. It checks a lot of boxes, gets good gas mileage, it’s cheap and has a lot of utility. Lots of people like it, but I doubt anyone is passionate about it. The definition of passion is strong and barely controllable emotion. Do you honestly think anyone feels that way about the maverick? Passion products would be vehicles that you aspire to own or a vehicle that you would take over all others regardless of price. No one is picking a maverick in either of those situations.

 

regardless, I think Farley would classify the maverick in the “work” vehicles and not a passion product anyways. 

[sullynd]

22 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

The maverick is a fine vehicle. It checks a lot of boxes, gets good gas mileage, it’s cheap and has a lot of utility. Lots of people like it, but I doubt anyone is passionate about it. The definition of passion is strong and barely controllable emotion. Do you honestly think anyone feels that way about the maverick? Passion products would be vehicles that you aspire to own or a vehicle that you would take over all others regardless of price. No one is picking a maverick in either of those situations.

 

regardless, I think Farley would classify the maverick in the “work” vehicles and not a passion product anyways. 

You must not spend much time on the multiple Maverick forums or Facebook groups.  Lots of passionate fans of the Maverick.  Were very happy with my wife’s Mav.

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Ford's most boring vehicles are the F series, hope Farley doesn't make them "go away".

I mean, the f-series has the tremor package, the raptor, both the 3.5 V6, and the 5.2 V8 which is literally a supercar engine in a truck, yes I consider the gt500 a supercar, the power boost, and the lightning. Those are all pretty exciting imo, and I'm not your typical f-150 buyer. 

 

2 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

I've got no problem with Ford making "passion" vehicles that sell for six figure prices- The profits can subsidize lower priced and even boring vehicles for the rest of us. But Mr. Farley needs to remember that he's got a bunch of factories and thousands of workers to keep busy...

Let me twist a quote from Ford's old head of design Jay May's, he said "Good design costs the same as bad design" lets apply that approach to thinking, and product development. Farley is saying he wants Ford to lean into it's passion products, it's icons, to create products that are more unique. Taking a unique approach doesn't mean you're only developing expensive vehicles. Taking a different approach to product development isn't inherently more expensive. 

 

If I had to hazzard a guess, Ford is probably realizing there's no sense in trying to be the American Toyota, making bland, generic vehicles. Not only is there no real profit in it for Ford, but Toyota and Honda fans are mindless hordes who would walk past a superior Ford vehicle to keep buying the same crap from Toyota and Honda. The types that look at the vastly superior ranger, or even maverick, and buy the pretty terrible Tacoma instead without doing any research, because someone 15 years ago told them Toyota trucks were reliable. 

[T-dubz]

12 minutes ago, sullynd said:

You must not spend much time on the multiple Maverick forums or Facebook groups.  Lots of passionate fans of the Maverick.  We’re very happy with my wife’s Mav.

Being very happy and passionate are completely different things. I would equate being very happy with a vehicle to liking it, which is why I said lots of people like it. I too like the maverick for what it is, but it in no way invokes passion in me and I’m sure it doesn’t in you or your wife either. I go to mavericktruckclub several times a week and the amount of users and posts there is nothing compared to a true passion product forum like bronco6g.

[Deanh]

39 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

Being very happy and passionate are completely different things. I would equate being very happy with a vehicle to liking it, which is why I said lots of people like it. I too like the maverick for what it is, but it in no way invokes passion in me and I’m sure it doesn’t in you or your wife either. I go to mavericktruckclub several times a week and the amount of users and posts there is nothing compared to a true passion product forum like bronco6g.

well to be frank...thats Mustang/ Bronco and Raptor centric if youre conversing about true passion....

[akirby]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

The maverick is a fine vehicle. It checks a lot of boxes, gets good gas mileage, it’s cheap and has a lot of utility. Lots of people like it, but I doubt anyone is passionate about it. The definition of passion is strong and barely controllable emotion. Do you honestly think anyone feels that way about the maverick? Passion products would be vehicles that you aspire to own or a vehicle that you would take over all others regardless of price. No one is picking a maverick in either of those situations.

 

regardless, I think Farley would classify the maverick in the “work” vehicles and not a passion product anyways. 

That is not the definition of passionate.  I follow several Maverick owner forums and groups and they love these vehicles.  Lots of customizations.  People willing to wait up to 18 months and pay MSRP or higher.  Thats the type of passion Farley is referring to.  Because ultimately it boils down to being able to retain good profit margins.  Same for Bronco Sport.  Has little to do with absolute price.

[akirby]

57 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

Being very happy and passionate are completely different things. I would equate being very happy with a vehicle to liking it, which is why I said lots of people like it. I too like the maverick for what it is, but it in no way invokes passion in me and I’m sure it doesn’t in you or your wife either. I go to mavericktruckclub several times a week and the amount of users and posts there is nothing compared to a true passion product forum like bronco6g.

 

You’re just arguing semantics.  Do Maverick buyers like their vehicle enough to pay MSRP or higher and wait up to 18 months?  Yes.  That’s the goal.

[Deanh]

14 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

You’re just arguing semantics.  Do Maverick buyers like their vehicle enough to pay MSRP or higher and wait up to 18 months?  Yes.  That’s the goal.

I just received 6 cancelled 2023Maverick orders, severtal of which transitioned from 2022...Ill circle back with responses regarding tolerance of waiting times....ironicllay all bar one were base xl hybrids...

[Captainp4]

I have a friend that's late 20s, always drove old shitboxes, has a ton of projects from cars/trucks/3 wheelers/dirtbikes, but finally has moved up at his job enough that he's making decent money for his age and #1 on his list is the Maverick because it's affordable/simple/tough enough to pull the atvs around (his and gf's on a small trailer are under the 4k tow limit) occasionally for our trips. Knowing him it's almost guaranteed he's going to modify it. But point of this comment is it's pulling interest from "car guys" because it's both interesting and affordable.

[Rick73]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

Completely disagree.  Maverick and Bronco Sport buyers are very passionate about their vehicles.  They customize them, give them names, buy lots of accessories.  That doesn’t happen with Corollas and Camrys and Escapes.

Different strokes I suppose.  In any case, I seriously doubt Ford created Maverick any different or with different intent than other vehicles they now consider lacking passion or excitement.  They are not that good IMO.  Occasionally they (and other manufacturers) get lucky and create a vehicle that has devoted following, but if they could do it intentionally, they would be doing it on all new vehicles all the time.  Sorry, but I believe it’s more hit-and-miss, luck, or whatever we want to call it.  For what it’s worth, Maverick seems great to me, and offers a lot of value, yet Bronco Sport I wouldn’t go near.  Just saying individual tastes are hard to predict.  

 

 

[HotRunrGuy]

33 minutes ago, Deanh said:

I just received 6 cancelled 2023Maverick orders, several of which transitioned from 2022...Ill circle back with responses regarding tolerance of waiting times....ironically all bar one were base xl hybrids...

 

Possibly ordered with little to no deposit, by people anticipating flipping them for big bucks?  My traded-in '23 XLT is still sitting on my dealers lot. They started with $8K over my trade-in value, have dropped down to $5K over (still over the original MSRP window sticker).

 

HRG

[akirby]

10 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Different strokes I suppose.  In any case, I seriously doubt Ford created Maverick any different or with different intent than other vehicles they now consider lacking passion or excitement.  They are not that good IMO.  Occasionally they (and other manufacturers) get lucky and create a vehicle that has devoted following, but if they could do it intentionally, they would be doing it on all new vehicles all the time.  Sorry, but I believe it’s more hit-and-miss, luck, or whatever we want to call it.  For what it’s worth, Maverick seems great to me, and offers a lot of value, yet Bronco Sport I wouldn’t go near.  Just saying individual tastes are hard to predict.  

It’s irrelevant what you or I like.  What is relevant is how the 100k or so who actually purchase these vehicles annually feel about them.  You’re too caught up in technical specs.  People see Bronco Sport and say I gotta have one.  Same with Maverick.  That’s not by accident.  It’s a combination of good styling, features and price.  Being unique helps a lot.  By contrast nobody looked at an Ecosport and got excited or said gotta have it.

[akirby]

16 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

Possibly ordered with little to no deposit, by people anticipating flipping them for big bucks?  My traded-in '23 XLT is still sitting on my dealers lot. They started with $8K over my trade-in value, have dropped down to $5K over (still over the original MSRP window sticker).

 

HRG

Or more likely ordered as a backup vehicle for another order.

[akirby]

44 minutes ago, Deanh said:

I just received 6 cancelled 2023Maverick orders, severtal of which transitioned from 2022...Ill circle back with responses regarding tolerance of waiting times....ironicllay all bar one were base xl hybrids...

The question is how quickly will you sell them and for what price?  I would imagine hybrids would go fast at MSRP or higher.

[T-dubz]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

You’re just arguing semantics.  Do Maverick buyers like their vehicle enough to pay MSRP or higher and wait up to 18 months?  Yes.  That’s the goal.

That means absolutely nothing. The reason people pay msrp or above or wait a long time for it is solely due to price. Any comparable truck alternative is probably 40k so even if I pay 27k instead of the 25k msrp, I’m still saving 13k over going with the alternative. If the maverick started at 40k instead of 25k, there would be no waiting to buy it, no paying above msrp, and probably no loyal fan base. The reason the Ecosport failed was because it was ugly, and too small. Maverick is by no means a looker, but it’s bland enough to be inoffensive and it offers way more utility then the Ecosport ever could and can carry four adults somewhat comfortably.

Edited January 19 by T-dubz

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The issue with the LWB Bronco Sport vs Escape vs the Bronco is size.

 

An Escape is 180 inches, the Bronco Sport is 172 inches

 

The Bronco is 173.7/189.4 depending on the two door vs four door. Adding a LWB BS would dilute the lineup IMO. 

 

IMO Ford would be better off leaning more into the sporty side with the next gen Escape replacement, like they are trying to do with the current model and letting the Bronco Sport take care of the people who want a tougher image with their vehicle. 

 

I find it ironic that the Maverick took such a short time to develop from a concept to market delivery,

 just a shame that Ford didn’t double down on Maverick Utility,  Escape is now branded  a commodity.

 

A more provocative Bronco Sport development would have seen its  length at 180”, same as Escape,

making the choice simply between rugged boxy design and soft, perhaps too bland Euro styling..

 

Maybe that’s where something like a Maverick Utility could offer the perfect replacement for Escape,

expanding an existing vehicle in a low cost Mexican plant without having to revisit any other changes….

 

Just  spitballing ideas here but knowing that Ford can’t go back and lengthen Bronco Sport, maybe keep with your thinking with the Bronco family theme while perhaps extending Maverick to replace Escape?

It would definitely be low cost to develop and much easier to implement along side Maverick pickup.

Edited January 19 by jpd80

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe that’s where something like a Maverick Utility could offer the perfect replacement for Escape,

expanding an existing vehicle in a low cost Mexican plant without having to revisit any other changes….

 

Just  spitballing ideas here but knowing that Ford can’t go back and lengthen Bronco Sport, maybe keep with your thinking with the Bronco family theme while perhaps extending Maverick to replace Escape?

It would definitely be low cost to develop and much easier to implement along side Maverick pickup.

I like this idea I've seen you and Akirby mention about a maverick utility. But I have concerns if Ford develop a maverick utility with that classic boxy shape, it would lead to a lot of cross model cannibalization between the maverick utility and bronco sport.

 

I say either off escape, and devote the resources, the plant capacity that was intended for the escape to the bronco sport to expand production. If Ford wants to continue offering multiple compact crossovers, I say essentially turn the next escape into a baby mach-e. Something that could still sell as a passion product, but was significantly different than what the bronco sport was offering. Ford seems to be pulling a lot of inspiration from Jeep, and Porsche as of late. If the mustang is the 911, and the mach-e is the Cayenne, then the electric escape could be Ford's macan. 

Edited January 19 by DeluxeStang

[Deanh]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

The question is how quickly will you sell them and for what price?  I would imagine hybrids would go fast at MSRP or higher.

yeah..but point is if they are continually cancelled I cant get them TOO sell....one of these orders was put in as a 2021...became a 2022, then a2023...now its going to become a 2024????????????? lunacy...

[Deanh]

3 hours ago, T-dubz said:

That means absolutely nothing. The reason people pay msrp or above or wait a long time for it is solely due to price. Any comparable truck alternative is probably 40k so even if I pay 27k instead of the 25k msrp, I’m still saving 13k over going with the alternative. If the maverick started at 40k instead of 25k, there would be no waiting to buy it, no paying above msrp, and probably no loyal fan base. The reason the Ecosport failed was because it was ugly, and too small. Maverick is by no means a looker, but it’s bland enough to be inoffensive and it offers way more utility then the Ecosport ever could and can carry four adults somewhat comfortably.

not necessarily true...availability or lack of it I think is even a bigger issue...the good old supply and demand syndrome...price plays a part, but its definitely just a part of the puzzle

[Deanh]

3 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

Possibly ordered with little to no deposit, by people anticipating flipping them for big bucks?  My traded-in '23 XLT is still sitting on my dealers lot. They started with $8K over my trade-in value, have dropped down to $5K over (still over the original MSRP window sticker).

 

HRG

all the orders were for long time customers...definitely not for flipping...As far as your trade in, I sincerely think the market is undergoing a change and reverting to pre covid days...expect discounting to rear its head again soon...this is where I laugh at people that bought from us with no markup pl;edging they would remember that...pffffft!...falacy!